How Long Do Successful Rebuilds Take Anyway?

[GASabresIUFAN]

In light of GMTM's recent admission that the rebuild was going to take more then 3 years he originally predicted and the stupid TBN article that the Sabres are wasting Jack, I thought it might be interesting to study the successful recent rebuilds and set our expectations accordingly.  So how long did these rebuilds really take?

 

Chicago (Cup winners in 2010, 2013  & 2015);  Began their rebuild in 2004 with 17 picks and Cam Barker 3rd overall.  Drafted Toews 3rd in 2006 and Kane 1st in 2007.  Won First Cup at the end of 2009-10 season.  Thus 6 seasons after the rebuild began and 4 season after they got their franchise center in Toews.  In should be noted that the 2 cornerstone D and G were drafted prior to their tank years (Keith in 2002, Seabrook & Crawford in 2003.)

 

Pittsburgh (Cup winners in 2009 and 2016); Began rebuild in 2002 with 11 picks and Whitney drafted 5th overall.  Drafted Fleury 1st overall in 2003, Malkin 2nd overall in 2004, Crosby 1st in 2005 (lockout year) and Staal 2nd in 2006.  Thus 7 years (6 seasons + one lockout) after the rebuild began and 5 years after getting their franchise center in Crosby (6 for Malkin).  They also drafted Orpik in 2002.  Also key players like Goligoski, Letang, Kennedy, and Talbot were all drafted during the tank years.

 

The rebuild most similar to GMTM's apparent plan is LA.  (Cup winners in 2012 & 2014).  Although mediocre for 3 years before the rebuild (which netted them Dustin Brown 13th overall in 2003 and Kopitar 11th  and Quick 72nd in 2005), Their rebuild started similar to ours with 2 1st rd picks in 2006 and then tanking for the next 3 years.  During the tank they picked 4th overall in 2007 (best picks Simmonds 61st and Martinez 95th), 2nd in 2008 (Doughty) and 5th in 2009 (Schenn).  Unlike most rebuilds they traded away assets like Simmonds and Schenn to get young vets like Carter and Richards to get the team to the top.  However their first Cup was 7 years after drafting franchise center Kopitar, but came in the season they acquired Carter and Richards.

 

The Sabres rebuild to date:

Started in 2012 with the drafting of Grigorenko (12th), Girgensons (14th) and McCabe (44th).  Tank in full swing with 11 picks in 2013 including Risto 8th overall.  Reinhart 2nd overall in 2014, Eichel 2nd in 2015 and Nylander 8th in 2016.  Draft picks, prospects and picks (most from the prior administration) have been traded to acquire young vets like Kulikov, Bogosian, ROR, Lehner, and Kane in an attempt to accelerate the rebuilding process.  Right now we are only the 2nd season after drafting our franchise center in Eichel. If history is a guide, it looks like at least 2-3 more seasons until we should be competing for Cups.

Edited March 11, 2017 by GASabresIUFAN

[Jsixspd]

I think you might want to shave a couple years off the Chicago rebuild.   The roster by 2008-09 was almost completely changed from 2004. Or even 2006 when Toews was drafted - that would be 4 years.   

They were the same old bottom feeding Chicago Blackhawks until the owner, William Wirtz, died, and the son, Rocky Wirtz, took over in 2007.   Yes, he inherited a bunch of draft picks.  The father was viewed as a cheapskate (Ralph Wilson Jr of hockey owners?) and sat on his chips.  Rocky Wirtz changed MANY things starting in 2007,  many policies.  He didn't even onboard Stan Bowman until 2009.

There's a huge difference between Wirtz and Pegula - Wirtz knows what he's doing - his father owned the Blackhawks, and he clearly knew the business, - and as soon as he took control he began to make many effective and efficient changes in the team, even before he hired Bowman, and Bowman promoted Quenneville to coach, and the team was QUICKLY on the upswing.

Whereas Pegula diddled around and the team was like a rudderless ship for a good 3 years, until Murray was hired, 3 years and 2 months ago.  

The difference between competency, and incompetency.  Pegula has good intentions, but has no clue.  

In Buffalo, the start of our rebuild seems to be viewed as was when Murray was hired.

IF you used that formula for the Blackhawks, then we are downright PATHETIC.   Bowman was hired in the  summer of 2009 -  10 months later, the Hawks won a cup.  Quenneville took over as HC just after the start of the 2009 season.

IF you substitute WIrtz for Murray,  then 3 years after Wirtz took over,  the Hawks won a cup.  That's STILL a lot better than us. 

IF you use Ristolainen as the watermark (almost 4 calendar years now since he was drafted)  as you did Toews,  Chicago's rebuild is STILL much better than ours efficiency. 

Can we even be CALLED a rebuild at this point? Rebuild implies continual improvement - and if you look at the season by season record at Chicago from when Toews started, the points and success increased every year.  

It's starting to look like this season may have trouble even hitting the 81 point total the Sabres achieved last season. That's not exactly what I'd call a 'rebuild'.

We just LOVE to make excuses for Buffalo.   Yeah, the Hawks had a lot of draft picks 'in hand' in 2006, 2007.   But as I recall, Murray inherited a lot of draft picks from the stingy Regier.    Using the way you calculated Chicago's rebuild start, you could probably add another 12-18 months onto the current rebuild.  IF you go by the drafting of Risto, (as you did with Toews) then we're 4 years in.  

Heck, if you use Pegula's purchase, we're 6 years and 1 month in, and counting!  And the Hawks radically improved under Rocky Wirtz, even with the previous GM and coach still on the payroll.  

How did the Sabres do with Pegula as boss of Regier and Ruff? 

The roster from the time of Toews draft at Chicago was almost entirely different 4 years later when they won the Cup.   Kind of hard to use 2004 as a guideline in that case. 

And we are NOWHERE near as far along after 4 years as Chicago was, 4 years after drafting Toews.  Or 3 years.   Or almost any way you want to compare.   

[7+6=13]

^^^ What would be the point of giving the team one second of your time then?

[jad1]

To me, a rebuild is the act of replacing core players. So, in the Chicago case, since Keith and Seabrook are integral members of their Cup teams, their rebuild started in 2002, when Keith was drafted, even though they actively tanked after that. It's difficult to argue that Chicago wins their Cups without Duncan or Keith, so the clock on their rebuild started when they were drafted.

 

Same goes for Brown and Kopitar in LA. Their rebuild started when Brown was drafted in 2003.

 

Despite the top picks that the Penguins made 2003 - 2006, Orpik was a key member of the Cup wining team. As the OP notes, he was drafted in 2002.

 

During the rebuilds, each of these teams fired coaches. Chicago fired their GM. More important than the coach and GM, though, is the on-ice talent. It's that players that make the rebuild successful.

 

The length of the current Sabres rebuild really depends on if you consider McCabe and or Risto core members of a Cup challenging team.

 

If you consider McCabe a core member, it started in 2012. If you don't consider McCabe core, but believe Risto is, it started in 2013. If you consider neither core, it started in 2014.

 

Any of those start dates keep the Sabres within the timeframe of Chicago's, Pittsburgh's, and LA's rebuilds.

[Weave]

This Chicago tank meme needs to die. 

 

Chicago never tanked.  It didn't happen.  They had an owner who milked every nickle he could get from the team.  And it wasn't a sudden action like a tank.  It was more like bleeding a pig.  it happened slowly but as the pig weakened it became more obvious that it was dying, and eventually it nosedived.  He moved vets, prospects, and young players alike if it resulted in more money in his pocket.  Finishing last to draft first was never a factor in his decisions.  If the original OSP managed to continue to run the team into see Keith and Seabrook's 2nd contract they would have been moved too. 

 

Fortunately for Chicago, Rocky has started phasing out the old man by then.

[Radar]

I think you might want to shave a couple years off the Chicago rebuild.   The roster by 2008-09 was almost completely changed from 2004. Or even 2006 when Toews was drafted - that would be 4 years.   

They were the same old bottom feeding Chicago Blackhawks until the owner, William Wirtz, died, and the son, Rocky Wirtz, took over in 2007.   Yes, he inherited a bunch of draft picks.  The father was viewed as a cheapskate (Ralph Wilson Jr of hockey owners?) and sat on his chips.  Rocky Wirtz changed MANY things starting in 2007,  many policies.  He didn't even onboard Stan Bowman until 2009.

There's a huge difference between Wirtz and Pegula - Wirtz knows what he's doing - his father owned the Blackhawks, and he clearly knew the business, - and as soon as he took control he began to make many effective and efficient changes in the team, even before he hired Bowman, and Bowman promoted Quenneville to coach, and the team was QUICKLY on the upswing.

Whereas Pegula diddled around and the team was like a rudderless ship for a good 3 years, until Murray was hired, 3 years and 2 months ago.  

The difference between competency, and incompetency.  Pegula has good intentions, but has no clue.  

In Buffalo, the start of our rebuild seems to be viewed as was when Murray was hired.

IF you used that formula for the Blackhawks, then we are downright PATHETIC.   Bowman was hired in the  summer of 2009 -  10 months later, the Hawks won a cup.  Quenneville took over as HC just after the start of the 2009 season.

IF you substitute WIrtz for Murray,  then 3 years after Wirtz took over,  the Hawks won a cup.  That's STILL a lot better than us. 

IF you use Ristolainen as the watermark (almost 4 calendar years now since he was drafted)  as you did Toews,  Chicago's rebuild is STILL much better than ours efficiency. 

Can we even be CALLED a rebuild at this point? Rebuild implies continual improvement - and if you look at the season by season record at Chicago from when Toews started, the points and success increased every year.  

It's starting to look like this season may have trouble even hitting the 81 point total the Sabres achieved last season. That's not exactly what I'd call a 'rebuild'.

We just LOVE to make excuses for Buffalo.   Yeah, the Hawks had a lot of draft picks 'in hand' in 2006, 2007.   But as I recall, Murray inherited a lot of draft picks from the stingy Regier.    Using the way you calculated Chicago's rebuild start, you could probably add another 12-18 months onto the current rebuild.  IF you go by the drafting of Risto, (as you did with Toews) then we're 4 years in.  

Heck, if you use Pegula's purchase, we're 6 years and 1 month in, and counting!  And the Hawks radically improved under Rocky Wirtz, even with the previous GM and coach still on the payroll.  

How did the Sabres do with Pegula as boss of Regier and Ruff? 

The roster from the time of Toews draft at Chicago was almost entirely different 4 years later when they won the Cup.   Kind of hard to use 2004 as a guideline in that case. 

And we are NOWHERE near as far along after 4 years as Chicago was, 4 years after drafting Toews.  Or 3 years.   Or almost any way you want to compare.

 

Maybe you're being a bit too negative. This team was really bad a few years back. To me their rebuild is going about as I expected maybe with the acquisition of ROR a little better than expected. We need help on defense and goal tending still, to me, a question mark.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Sometimes they just don't work.

 

The Cup is the hardest trophy to win in sport and some teams seem destined never to win it, especially since there are so many damn teams competing for it.

[dudacek]

I do think the expectation that the Sabres rebuild should be farther along is odd.

Hope, sure. Frustration that it's not, definitely. We've been suffering for a while.

 

But expectation? The team was one of the worst collections of talent we've ever seen less than two years ago.

[TrueBlueGED]

I do think the expectation that the Sabres rebuild should be farther along is odd.

Hope, sure. Frustration that it's not, definitely. We've been suffering for a while.

 

But expectation? The team was one of the worst collections of talent we've ever seen less than two years ago.

We may finish worse than the season immediately following the tank. I don't find it odd that people think we shouldn't have taken a step backwards in year two.

[GASabresIUFAN]

I do think the expectation that the Sabres rebuild should be farther along is odd.

Hope, sure. Frustration that it's not, definitely. We've been suffering for a while.

 

But expectation? The team was one of the worst collections of talent we've ever seen less than two years ago.

GMTM created the expectations when he said he could accelerate the rebuilding process and do it in 3 years. In fact, the reason I created this thread was to reset the expectation based on the reality of our defense and bottom six and GMTM's admission that the original statement wasn't going to happen.

 

Other notes:

Every franchise situation is different and some franchises may not be actively "tanking" like we did, but if you spend 3-5 years at the bottom of the standings and are trading successful veteran players for young player, picks and prospects (PPP) you are rebuilding regardless of whether you call it that or not. Also just because a core player was drafted prior to the actual rebuild, it doesn't back date the start of the rebuild. Personally, I look for two things; the trades of the old core and the drafting of the franchise center, although in LA's case you could argue that Doughty is the key to the club not Kopitar.

 

As to the Hawks, please remember that Chicago's current core was mostly orchestrated by Dale Tallon and not Stan Bowman. Bowman didn't become GM of Chicago until 2009. All the major picks were done by Tallon. He joined the Hawks in 2002 and become GM in 2005 and was therefore retained and promoted when Rocky took over. Tallon also acquired Hossa, Sharp and Campbell for the rebuilding Hawks. I would say when you combine bad play, ownership, coach and GM changes with active vet acquistion, I'd say Chicago's rebuild is a model we should be and in some respects are following. Admittedly Rocky knows what he is doing and Pegula doesn't.

Edited March 11, 2017 by GASabresIUFAN

[dudacek]

My post was in response to your premise Yse.

Like the cliche goes, Rome is rarely built in a day.

No matter what a blunt, aggressive GM might say.

 

To Blue, the vast majority of teams that take a leap like we did last year, slip or plateau the following year.

Our record this year, the past few weeks notwithstanding, is what history suggests it should be.

 

Had Murray been right on Bylsma, Ennis, Kulikov and/or Bogosian, this team would likely be 6-12 points ahead of where we are.

All GMs make mistakes. All GMs get lucky. I don't know yet that Murray has been lucky.

 

Other than the fact he got Eichel.

And that alone is enough to convince me we will be good soon.

[GASabresIUFAN]

 

 

The Sabres rebuild to date:

Started in 2012 with the drafting of Grigorenko (12th), Girgensons (14th) and McCabe (44th).  Tank in full swing with 11 picks in 2013 including Risto 8th overall.  Reinhart 2nd overall in 2014, Eichel 2nd in 2015 and Nylander 8th in 2016.  Draft picks, prospects and picks (most from the prior administration) have been traded to acquire young vets like Kulikov, Bogosian, ROR, Lehner, and Kane in an attempt to accelerate the rebuilding process.  Right now we are only the 2nd season after drafting our franchise center in Eichel. If history is a guide, it looks like at least 2-3 more seasons until we should be competing for Cups.

 

 

 

My post was in response to your premise Yse.

Like the cliche goes, Rome is rarely built in a day.

No matter what a blunt, aggressive GM might say.

 

 

I think we are in agreement.  After doing the research, it is pretty clear that 2-3 more years of building is likely on it's way.  What stood out was that in addition to the franchise centers and D, teams also drafted key contributors from the draft(s) in which they drafted the franchise players.  Right now Guhle will be the first of Murray's picks outside Jack and Sam to make the team.  Over the next two years hopefully, guys like Borgen, Pu, Asplund, Nylander and Estephan start pushing their way onto Buffalo's roster. 

[7+6=13]

I think we are in agreement.  After doing the research, it is pretty clear that 2-3 more years of building is likely on it's way.  What stood out was that in addition to the franchise centers and D, teams also drafted key contributors from the draft(s) in which they drafted the franchise players.  Right now Guhle will be the first of Murray's picks outside Jack and Sam to make the team.  Over the next two years hopefully, guys like Borgen, Pu, Asplund, Nylander and Estephan start pushing their way onto Buffalo's roster. 

 

Murray has had 3 drafts and we all know the numbers on draft picks making it in the NHL.  Round 3 and beyond is a miracle to even play a game - so we're talking about 1st and 2nd rounders primarily having a chance.  Sam is playing, Karabacek and Cornel are 20 and Lemieux was traded from the 2014 draft.  Eichel is playing and Guhle is coming from 2015.  You mentioned Nylander and Asplund and the apparent 6th round gift of Estephan.   Carrier a 2nd rounder from the 2013 draft also has a chance to be a good NHL player.

 

Murray obviously added very good offensive talent in free agency and the draft.  He has not accomplished that defensively but we have this years draft and will have to lean on building it through free agency.  We're in good shape and shouldn't be so down trodden.  When Sam and Jack are 24 and 23 respectively we're going to be a force and some of the bad contracts we have now will be far in the rear view mirror.  

 

To me this season and next are just about getting our young stars on the ice and developing their game - they are doing that. 

[Doohicksie]

The Red Wings won their first Cup in 42 years 14 years after drafting their franchise center (Yzerman).

 

We might be here a while.  Grab a Snickers.

[Doohicksie]

I've been thinking about it, and I have a theory.  Well, this theory, that I have, that is to say, which is mine,... is mine.

Ahh! My theory, that I have, follows the lines that I am about to relate.  This theory, which belongs to me, is as follows... This is how it goes... The next thing that I am about to say is my theory.  Ready?

My theory is along the following lines...

 

The Sabres have been in most of their games this year, most often well into the third period.  It's been frustrating because there are a lot of games the Sabres should have won, and yet they didn't.  In the end, they lost a LOT of standings points based on a stupid mistake or a bad bounce.  We say this team isn't talented, but really, it is.  It's not all put together yet, but it's talented.  With the addition of or two top-4 Dmen in the offseason, and the promotion of some of the offensive prospects, the Sabres will be *just a little bit* better, and just a little bit will be all it takes to push this team into the playoffs.  In short, my theory is that the Sabres are close.  Real close.  Next year they're in the playoffs.  Another year or two after that, and they will be making deep runs.

 

Anyway, that is my theory.  Which is mine.

[GASabresIUFAN]

I like your theory and moves to get a top 4 D and better depth would be very similar to what Chi did when they added Campbell, Hossa and Sharp among others to supplement their draftees. (we already got our Sharp and Hossa in ROR and KO).

[MattPie]

 

In light of GMTM's recent admission that the rebuild was going to take more then 3 years he originally predicted and the stupid TBN article that the Sabres are wasting Jack, I thought it might be interesting to study the successful recent rebuilds and set our expectations accordingly.  So how long did these rebuilds really take?

 

Chicago (Cup winners in 2010, 2013  & 2015);  Began their rebuild in 2004 with 17 picks and Cam Barker 3rd overall.  Drafted Toews 3rd in 2006 and Kane 1st in 2007.  Won First Cup at the end of 2009-10 season.  Thus 6 seasons after the rebuild began and 4 season after they got their franchise center in Toews.  In should be noted that the 2 cornerstone D and G were drafted prior to their tank years (Keith in 2002, Seabrook & Crawford in 2003.)

 

Pittsburgh (Cup winners in 2009 and 2016); Began rebuild in 2002 with 11 picks and Whitney drafted 5th overall.  Drafted Fleury 1st overall in 2003, Malkin 2nd overall in 2004, Crosby 1st in 2005 (lockout year) and Staal 2nd in 2006.  Thus 7 years (6 seasons + one lockout) after the rebuild began and 5 years after getting their franchise center in Crosby (6 for Malkin).  They also drafted Orpik in 2002.  Also key players like Goligoski, Letang, Kennedy, and Talbot were all drafted during the tank years.

 

The rebuild most similar to GMTM's apparent plan is LA.  (Cup winners in 2012 & 2014).  Although mediocre for 3 years before the rebuild (which netted them Dustin Brown 13th overall in 2003 and Kopitar 11th  and Quick 72nd in 2005), Their rebuild started similar to ours with 2 1st rd picks in 2006 and then tanking for the next 3 years.  During the tank they picked 4th overall in 2007 (best picks Simmonds 61st and Martinez 95th), 2nd in 2008 (Doughty) and 5th in 2009 (Schenn).  Unlike most rebuilds they traded away assets like Simmonds and Schenn to get young vets like Carter and Richards to get the team to the top.  However their first Cup was 7 years after drafting franchise center Kopitar, but came in the season they acquired Carter and Richards.

 

The Sabres rebuild to date:

Started in 2012 with the drafting of Grigorenko (12th), Girgensons (14th) and McCabe (44th).  Tank in full swing with 11 picks in 2013 including Risto 8th overall.  Reinhart 2nd overall in 2014, Eichel 2nd in 2015 and Nylander 8th in 2016.  Draft picks, prospects and picks (most from the prior administration) have been traded to acquire young vets like Kulikov, Bogosian, ROR, Lehner, and Kane in an attempt to accelerate the rebuilding process.  Right now we are only the 2nd season after drafting our franchise center in Eichel. If history is a guide, it looks like at least 2-3 more seasons until we should be competing for Cups.

 

 

Woah there, I don't recall anyone talking rebuild back then. G + G were desperate moves to make the team good by drafting in Centers since the Sabres had nothing after the Leino debacle. The rebuild, in my mind, starts on April 3, 2013 when they traded Pominville away, who at the time was in Buffalo's top-3 forwards.

[dudacek]

Woah there, I don't recall anyone talking rebuild back then. G + G were desperate moves to make the team good by drafting in Centers since the Sabres had nothing after the Leino debacle. The rebuild, in my mind, starts on April 3, 2013 when they traded Pominville away, who at the time was in Buffalo's top-3 forwards.

 

I agree, or more accurately, that's when the tear down started. I'd say the true rebuild started the first time after that where we stop collecting assets and started acquiring players that could step in and immediately improve the team. So Draft Day, 2015 — not even two years ago.

[GASabresIUFAN]

I agree, or more accurately, that's when the tear down started. I'd say the true rebuild started the first time after that where we stop collecting assets and started acquiring players that could step in and immediately improve the team. So Draft Day, 2015 — not even two years ago.

Completely disagree. Regier moved Gaustad for a 1st on 2-29-2012, then acquired Hodgson. After the season he traded away Derek Roy. The removal of the old core had begun. I think his initial idea was to try to retool on the fly. That was a doomed plan from the get go. He realized that by the next trade deadline and acclerated the teardown which included the firing of Ruff in Feb 2013.

 

Like renovating a house, the project begins when you tear the walls back down to the studs, not when you put the walls back up. However this discussion is why I put two dates in my original post; the first when the teardown began and second when the franchise player was acquired.

Edited March 13, 2017 by GASabresIUFAN

[dudacek]

Semantics of tear down versus rebuild aside, trading your fourth-line centre is not a tear down or rebuild move in anyone's universe especially for a 1st rounder.

KAssian for Hodgson was trading one touted and doubted prospect for another.

Ott for Roy was a hockey trade aimed at adding grit. They were Darcy juggling assets in an attempt to improve the team.

 

The Pominville trade made our team clearly worse today in the hope it got better tomorrow, and it marked the trend of similar trades of Miller and Vanek. Mattpie has it right.

 

Completely disagree. Regier moved Gaustad for a 1st on 2-29-2012, then acquired Hodgson. After the season he traded away Derek Roy. The removal of the old core had begun. I think his initial idea was to try to retool on the fly. That was a doomed plan from the get go. He realized that by the next trade deadline and acclerated the teardown which included the firing of Ruff in Feb 2013.

Like renovating a house, the project begins when you tear the walls back down to the studs, not when you put the walls back up. However this discussion is why I put two dates in my original post; the first when the teardown began and second when the franchise player was acquired.

Edited March 13, 2017 by dudacek

[Samson's Flow]

Good perspective here boys.

 

To me the rebuild/tank years started with trading away Pominville. After that we were clearly in selling mode and trading of Vanek, Stafford, Miller etc. followed that. The trade of Roy before that might have been an indicator, but that could be considered a "hockey trade" to get veteran toughness in Ott.

[qwksndmonster]

Never forget: Weave actually made the Roy-Ott swap. Darcy just signed off on it.

[Weave]

Woah there, I don't recall anyone talking rebuild back then. G + G were desperate moves to make the team good by drafting in Centers since the Sabres had nothing after the Leino debacle. The rebuild, in my mind, starts on April 3, 2013 when they traded Pominville away, who at the time was in Buffalo's top-3 forwards.

 

I present to you exhibit 1 of why you draft BPA and not need.  Exhibit 2 to being Kassian, Zachary.

 

Never forget: Weave actually made the Roy-Ott swap. Darcy just signed off on it.

 

Blind nut, squirrel, something, something.

[Taro T]

Woah there, I don't recall anyone talking rebuild back then. G + G were desperate moves to make the team good by drafting in Centers since the Sabres had nothing after the Leino debacle. The rebuild, in my mind, starts on April 3, 2013 when they traded Pominville awAy, who at the time was in Buffalo's top-3 forwards.

 

 

Agree 100%. That was the date the tank began.

 

 

Completely disagree. Regier moved Gaustad for a 1st on 2-29-2012, then acquired Hodgson. After the season he traded away Derek Roy. The removal of the old core had begun. I think his initial idea was to try to retool on the fly. That was a doomed plan from the get go. He realized that by the next trade deadline and acclerated the teardown which included the firing of Ruff in Feb 2013.

Like renovating a house, the project begins when you tear the walls back down to the studs, not when you put the walls back up. However this discussion is why I put two dates in my original post; the first when the teardown began and second when the franchise player was acquired.

Moving a 4th line C for a 1st is hardly an indication a teardown/ tank was underway. Especially after his participation in (or lack of participation in, technically) Lucic-Miller. Gaustad was toast in Buffalo after that game & it was shocking that Regier got a 1st for him.

 

And swapping out Roy & Kassian for Ott & Hodgson was a hockey decision DESIGNED to make the team better by adding a tough pita to play against (something the "incident" demonstrated was lacking in spades). The deals didn't work out, but they weren't intentionally lowering the quality of play. They just ended up that way. As you said, those deals were meant to re-tool. Trading Pominville was the canary in the coal mine & that canary was DOA. The Pominville trade was the official start of the tank.

[MattPie]

 

 

Agree 100%. That was the date the tank began.

 

 

Moving a 4th line C for a 1st is hardly an indication a teardown/ tank was underway. Especially after his participation in (or lack of participation in, technically) Lucic-Miller. Gaustad was toast in Buffalo after that game & it was shocking that Regier got a 1st for him.

 

And swapping out Roy & Kassian for Ott & Hodgson was a hockey decision DESIGNED to make the team better by adding a tough pita to play against (something the "incident" demonstrated was lacking in spades). The deals didn't work out, but they weren't intentionally lowering the quality of play. They just ended up that way. As you said, those deals were meant to re-tool. Trading Pominville was the canary in the coal mine & that canary was DOA. The Pominville trade was the official start of the tank.

 

I'm still at Hodgson/Kassian being pretty close to a wash, although he's still playing (6G, 19Pis in 65 games) so I guess Vancouver won that trade. That being said, Kassian and a 5th turned into Prust for Vancouver, who is in the AHL this year. Wash, unless that 5th does something.

 

Roy for Ott was an OK trade. Ott brought some swagger to the Sabres, and Roy hasn't done much since as far as I know.

 

I present to you exhibit 1 of why you draft BPA and not need.  Exhibit 2 to being Kassian, Zachary.

 

 

You could argue Grigorenko may have been BPA (at least based on scouting). He was projected to go higher and fell to Buffalo. I'm not sure you could say Girgensons wasn't BPA too; maybe not 5 years later, but at the time they weren't bad picks.