GM Tim Murray - Time for a serious conversation

[3putt]

Why does Murray think he should be granted 5 years when he promised that the rebuild would be faster than 5 years?  

 

For those praising Murray - the team isn't even BACK to the winning % and points earned before the Pegulas bought the Sabres 6 years ago and turned 'em into a fire sale - 96 pts. 

 

 

  When Rocky Wirtz took over the Blackhawks at the start of the 2007-8 season, they were a 71 pt team that was 20 games below .500  - they jumped to 88 points and 2 games below .500 the first year of Wirtz's ownership, and that was without Quenneville or Stan Bohe wman.   Then the NEXT season, STILL without Quenneville as HC or Bowman as GM, the team soared to 104 pts, 10 games above .500,  and the conference finals, 

 

So after 6 years with KimNTerry,  we have a 96 point team when they bought it brought down to 80 points - after 6 years.   2 years with Rocky Wirtz -  a 71 point team soars to 104 points. 

 

It can be DONE - it has been done.  Just not with this owner.  And apparently not with this GM. 

 

 I don't know if the villain of the piece are the meddling owners, or Murray -  but someone isn't getting results. 6 years of ownership and still an 80 point season!  

 

Those who are  "Praising" the improvement from the tank seasons?  LOL - that was a team intentionally set up to LOSE,  where every bit of talent was sent out the door.    Comparing the points of a historically bad tank team to a non-tank team and deeming that 'improvement'- that's like comparing apples to oranges. Ridiculous!  

 

How can anyone be satisfied with where this team is after 6 years of 'hockey heaven'?  After so many years of fail???  Apparently Murray is completely complacent - he's got a fat contract - what does he care?  He's probably just another bootlicking corporate yes man to the Pegulas, who is more likeable because of his gruff persona than his "I KNOW NOTHINK!!!"  counterpart at the Bills, Whaley.  

EDIT - I said Wirtz took two years - I was wrong - he took over a horrible team from his father in Oct 2007.  The Blackhawks hit 104 pts by April of 2009.  That's only 1 1/2 calendar years of his ownership.    That's a great turnaround, and what we could have seen with competent, savvy ownership instead of the Pegulas' committee driven dysfunctional structure. 

The Hawks were a basement team for alot longer than 1 and 1/2 years. They had accumulated assets over that time in the form of Keith and Seabrook. They hired Denis Savard post Kane and immediately fired him.  The thing that made the Hawks great was a lopsided backloaded contract for Hall of famer Marian Hossa. That type of contract is no longer an option in the new CBA. The Hawks were irrelevant in Chicago for a long time not to mention in the league.  Hossa and Q fell into their laps and that is what made them turn it around.  Maybe Julien was similar serendipity but there is no reason to believe he would have signed here and we know Babcock didn't. The Hawks and Leafs are similar in that both were horrid for a long time and reaped the benefits in the draft.  Buffalo took a bold step to retool under the new CBA and quite frankly are quickly rebuilding.  But the idea that because you want quicker results does not negate the issue that part of that plan was to have contracts that would be holdovers until they expired.  That may be able to be fixed but I think only time will get us out from under Moulson Ennis and Gorges.  The Hawks are a different era.

[etiennep99]

The Hawks were a basement team for alot longer than 1 and 1/2 years. They had accumulated assets over that time in the form of Keith and Seabrook.

 

 

 

Thank you. I was going to paste the same.  Chicago's "tank year" of 2007-2008 already had on the team:

 

Patrick Kane

Patrick Sharp

Jonathan Toews

Duncan Keith

Brent Seabrook

Cam Barker

Andrew Ladd

Dustin Byfuglien

Corey Crawford

 

 

They already had their core.  And guess what? They still were bad that year. 

 

Notice also that they had good D-Men already.   That's Buffalo's huge hole right now.   Keith+Seabrook > Risto + McCabe.

 

For the record, I was in favor of finding a way to draft guys like Chychrun and Carlo, both able to step right into the NHL.

Granted, Carlo was gone by the time that we drafted Guhle, who is promising.  But imagine if instead of wasting a 1st

on Lehner, perhaps we could have dropped down and gotten guys like Carlo and Aho AND Guhle?  And last year we took

Nylander one slot ahead of Sergachev, Montreal's "untouchable" prospect.

 

As I see it:

1. Tim Murray is loathe to trade down

2. Tim seems fixated on forwards instead of defense.

 

 

If Chicago proves anything, it is that rebuilding takes time.   And since it takes time to develop defensemen versus forwards,

it also makes sense to start a rebuild on defense.   Chicago had Keith and Seabrook before they got Toews and Kane.

[Sabre fan]

it also proves )as does Toronto) that when you tank you gotta get lucky and get the draft position and guy you tanked for...as in McDavid or Mathews as Chicago got kane and Pittsburg got Malkin then Crosby. It isn't TM's fault that for whatever reason Bogo has been complete opposite from what was expected (he was drafted 3rd overall remember). Meanwhile, kulikov can't get healthy and from all signs he was to be pretty friggin good. Gorges has taken a big turn for the worse all of a sudden...if these 3 played anywhere near their potential, along with Risto & McCabe, the D would be very good. It could be worse...the leafs have no d at all and only win when they outscore the other team. They are fun to watch (Marner is quite good) but truth is Babs is just letting them play and have fun and there seems to be no system or defensive-first outlook whereas Eichel continues to excel defensively. whatever, I do think TM has done a pretty good job. Blysma on the other hand...

[LTS]

I think this season has shown that moves, even drastic ones are needed.  Instead we get complacency despite what's been said in the past.

 

You're fine with that complacency and I'm not.

 

I judge Murray on his record as GM of the Sabres, not what "other people" say (which is also a popular political trick these days).  The problem with Murray is that his legend was built before he did anything and that legend still undeservedly exists for many.

 

What drastic moves?  There have been very few trades in the league this year because of salary cap and expansion draft.  It's not complacency, it's a lack of environment that invites the change you seek. I don't have a problem with Murray yet.  I can understand each move to this point.

 

Dude, 

I agree that we are in inning 5 or 6 of a long-term process.  However today (this week actually) was an opportunity lost and more then a "small speed bump."  Although, I do accept that teams were scared off by Kulikov's back.  

 

What do you think the offers for Franson were? A 4th rd pick? A 5th rd pick?  Those have value.  The more PPP you have (Players, Prospects and Picks) the more currency you have in the NHL and sometimes you hit the lottery on those later picks.  After all  two player rumored to be on Buffalo's radar were Sami Vatanen was a 4th rd pick and Ben Hutton a 5th.  However that 4th rd pick could have also been parlayed into something to improve the Sabres now.  After all Jordie Benn, who is a better player (at least this season) then Kulikov, Bogo and Gorges, was traded to Mon for a 4th rd pick and AAAA D Greg Pateryn.  Benn is signed for 2 more years at only a paltry 1.1 per year.  Getting him would have solidified half of our bottom pair for the next 2 years for next to nothing.  

 

Mon also picked up solid 25 yr old Brandon Davidson from Edm (he has 1 year left at 1.425) for tiny David Desharnais.  These are deals that GMTM could have easily done, improved the team for this season and next and sent a positive message to the locker room and the fan base.  Instead he did nothing, sent a message to the locker room that mediocre hockey is ok and to the fans not that he was complacent. but maybe incompetent or worse the second coming for Darcy Regier who consistently over value his players.

 

So, in order to get Benn, a lower tier defenseman the Sabres would have had to given up a 4th round pick (Vatanen was a 4th round pick) and another D player.  So, give up a pick that could be Vatanen and then get another D and give one away.  Now presumably they could have traded Franson away and received a 4th round pick.  By my math that gives the Sabres Benn for Franson, retain their 4th pick overall, and be down 1 D in the organization overall because they would have had to move... Nelson?  So they deplete their D depth more and they upgrade from Franson to Benn?  This is a good move in your eyes?

 

As for Davidson, who is he replacing?  Who is Murray giving up?  Is he trading away Ennis for ... what?  a lesser Foligno?  Does that improve the team? They sound like moves to make moves.

 

Montreal did not get better. They brought in grit and pretty much said, 'We're praying for Thomas-Julien 2.0'

 

Damn right.  Montreal is a team that stinks of a GM who is trying to save his job.  He fired the coach and the team could only get 4 forwards to score goals for them in February.  They are hanging on by a thread and Therrien is going to try and goon his way through the playoffs.

 

The funny thing is I'm not worried about DD.  I don't think he has done a wonderful job, but somethings, like our goaltending and PP, are much improved during his tenure.  I'm not sure I can properly evaluate him as a coach, until GMTM gives him a roster worth coaching, especially on D.  

 

IMHO it all start at the top. 

 

You like the Kulikov deal?  You like the Fasching trade in which we gave up 2 2nd rd picks and McNabb for a 4th line forward (Delo) and another depth forward prospect we didn't need ?(Fasching - who I like by the way as a person and player; I just think we way over paid to get him) You like giving up a first for Legwand and Lehner, who has mostly been outperformed by two backups (Nilsson and Johnson)?  You like the Gorges trades?  How about the Franson signing?  

 

Gorges?  Yes.  I am sure he had a very solid influence on Ristolainen's development.  Franson fills a hole.  The book is out on Lehner, he can look lights out, or he can look knocked out.  But in the same breath you talk about the D being all kinds of crap and I see a lot of goals that can be blamed on crap D.  If you removed 50% of those and you keep his soft goals the Sabres would still be winning more games.

 

http://www.wgr550.com/Sabres-Murray-explains-why-there-were-no-trades/23029184

 

He backpedals a bit after that, but he clearly doesn't see anything wrong with what the coaching staff is doing. 

 

This team has competed with and beaten the best teams in the NHL.  They are capable of doing this and we all know it.  The lack of effort and execution in Colorado and Arizona is not on the coaches, it's on the players.  They looked like crap.  I don't like Bylsma but I'm not going to pretend the players were out there putting in the proper effort either.  Coaches don't blow 2 goal leads like the Sabres just did.  They flat out stunk it up on the ice and it wasn't the "system".

[Sabre fan]

the trades made at the deadline or before were mostly minor deals involving players anyone could have had. making the big trade for a stud defenseman doesn;t happen for a reason...cap issues and salary for next season etc...just as TM was trying to do something, so was 29 other gm's and adding Stafford wouldnl;t help this team right now  

[pi2000]

To me the Moulson signing was his biggest mistake.... and allowing Bogo to be part of the Kane deal.     Those 2 contracts are killing this team.    It's like a $10mil cap penalty for the next 2-3 seasons.     Shedding those contracts this summer would be the best move he could make for this team going forward.... but I don't see how that happens... maybe he gets lucky and VGK takes one of them... or they work out some agreement where VGK takes Moulson and in return BUF gives them a draft pick or prospect or something.       

[Radar]

It amazes me that some posters think deadline moves are important to building a team. There dumping stations. It's rare a "hockey trade" or significant moves are made at trade deadline day. Fans are obsessed with trading regardless.

[TrueBlueGED]

We also have to understand there is a chance that Murray is reasonably confident with what we have on D now , and isn't as fussed as we are in terms of wanting to add help back there. Maybe he's confident in McCabe, Ristolainen, Kulikov, and Bogosian as the top 4, supplemented by Guhle and Borgen as needed.

 

I'm definitely thinking we need to add, but the above is a possibility, to my mind.

I think this is more likely than I care to think about. His statements show he's well aware he could use a top-2 Dman, but I'm not sure he necessarily thinks he has to revamp the middle pair.

To me the Moulson signing was his biggest mistake.... and allowing Bogo to be part of the Kane deal. Those 2 contracts are killing this team. It's like a $10mil cap penalty for the next 2-3 seasons. Shedding those contracts this summer would be the best move he could make for this team going forward.... but I don't see how that happens... maybe he gets lucky and VGK takes one of them... or they work out some agreement where VGK takes Moulson and in return BUF gives them a draft pick or prospect or something.

Wow. I think you're about to be excommunicated from your own church :p

[pi2000]

Wow. I think you're about to be excommunicated from your own church :P

 

That's OK, we have confession every Friday.

[woods-racer]

That's OK, we have confession every Friday.

 

So meeting at the bar every Friday at 5:30 is confession?

 

Nice! :worthy:

[pi2000]

So meeting at the bar every Friday at 5:30 is confession?

 

Nice! :worthy:

 

haha, yes!   it consists of taking a shot of old grand dad every time he loses a puck race or turns it over.

[GASabresIUFAN]

 

 

 

So, in order to get Benn, a lower tier defenseman the Sabres would have had to given up a 4th round pick (Vatanen was a 4th round pick) and another D player.  So, give up a pick that could be Vatanen and then get another D and give one away.  Now presumably they could have traded Franson away and received a 4th round pick.  By my math that gives the Sabres Benn for Franson, retain their 4th pick overall, and be down 1 D in the organization overall because they would have had to move... Nelson?  So they deplete their D depth more and they upgrade from Franson to Benn?  This is a good move in your eyes?

 

.

The answer is yes. Why because it is not about the remainder of the season, but about next year and beyond.

1) Franson is gone after this season, but is currently making 3.3.

2) Benn is the same age and is signed for 2 more years at 1.1 per season.

3) Here are their stat line for this year.

JB 2g, 13a, 15pts, -3, 34 pim, 18:33 toi, 52h, 115 bks, 145 minutes on the PK

CF 3g, 24a 17pts, -1, 28 pim, 18:45 toi, 70h, 54 bks, 49 minutes on the pk

It's pretty obvious that JB's contract is a much better value, and considering our needs for blocked shots and penalty killers he is a better fit.

He is also under contract, which frees up money to acquire a top 4 D or re-sign Kane etc...

 

Also the other player given up was a AAAA D, not unlike Falk and Fedun, and as we have seen AAAA D are easily found and replaced.

In addition, my point about acquiring a 4th for Franson was showing what can be done with a 4th rd pick such as draft someone with it and hope they become a Vatanen or use it as currency to upgrade the D now like Montreal did. If you don't think Benn's play this season has been an improvement over what we have received from Bogo, Kulikov, Gorges and Franson, you haven't Benn watching the Sabres this season. Furthermore there is a reason Benn's services were in demand and our gruesome foursome remain here.

[MattPie]

The answer is yes. Why because it is not about the remainder of the season, but about next year and beyond.

1) Franson is gone after this season, but is currently making 3.3.

2) Benn is the same age and is signed for 2 more years at 1.1 per season.

3) Here are their stat line for this year.

JB 2g, 13a, 15pts, -3, 34 pim, 18:33 toi, 52h, 115 bks, 145 minutes on the PK

CF 3g, 24a 17pts, -1, 28 pim, 18:45 toi, 70h, 54 bks, 49 minutes on the pk

It's pretty obvious that JB's contract is a much better value, and considering our needs for blocked shots and penalty killers he is a better fit.

He is also under contract, which frees up money to acquire a top 4 D or re-sign Kane etc...

 

Also the other player given up was a AAAA D, not unlike Falk and Fedun, and as we have seen AAAA D are easily found and replaced.

In addition, my point about acquiring a 4th for Franson was showing what can be done with a 4th rd pick such as draft someone with it and hope they become a Vatanen or use it as currency to upgrade the D now like Montreal did. If you don't think Benn's play this season has been an improvement over what we have received from Bogo, Kulikov, Gorges and Franson, you haven't Benn watching the Sabres this season. Furthermore there is a reason Benn's services were in demand and our gruesome foursome remain here.

 

I'm not saying Cody is the man, but the last thing we need is a guy who blocks a lot of shots. We need a guy that has the puck on his stick and therefore can't block shots because the other team doesn't get a chance to shoot.

[Jsixspd]

The Hawks were a basement team for alot longer than 1 and 1/2 years. They had accumulated assets over that time in the form of Keith and Seabrook. They hired Denis Savard post Kane and immediately fired him.  The thing that made the Hawks great was a lopsided backloaded contract for Hall of famer Marian Hossa. That type of contract is no longer an option in the new CBA. The Hawks were irrelevant in Chicago for a long time not to mention in the league.  Hossa and Q fell into their laps and that is what made them turn it around.  Maybe Julien was similar serendipity but there is no reason to believe he would have signed here and we know Babcock didn't. The Hawks and Leafs are similar in that both were horrid for a long time and reaped the benefits in the draft.  Buffalo took a bold step to retool under the new CBA and quite frankly are quickly rebuilding.  But the idea that because you want quicker results does not negate the issue that part of that plan was to have contracts that would be holdovers until they expired.  That may be able to be fixed but I think only time will get us out from under Moulson Ennis and Gorges.  The Hawks are a different era.

Ennis, Moulson and Gorges' contracts are all owned by Tim Murray.   He has ownership of, and accountability for, their duration and performance (or lack thereof).  

 

And good coaches may be avoiding Buffalo because OF the ownership situation.   I'd still like to know how much say Murray had (or didn't have) in Bylsma's hire.  Bet he's one of Terry's boys, even though he 'works for' Murray.  Supposedly.  

 

And if you look at Chicago's roster from the final tank year (2006-7) to the first improvement year (2007-8) and then to 2008-9,  it was virtually a clean sweep.  That's what the Sabres needed - a clean sweep.   Too many slugs have been either retained, resigned, or acquired by the current Owner/GM regime.  Getting rid of some average players, and replacing them with average players - isn't a formula for success.

 

 

[pi2000]

And if you look at Chicago's roster from the final tank year (2006-7) to the first improvement year (2007-8) and then to 2008-9,  it was virtually a clean sweep.  That's what the Sabres needed - a clean sweep.   Too many slugs have been either retained, resigned, or acquired by the current Owner/GM regime.  Getting rid of some average players, and replacing them with average players - isn't a formula for success.

 

 

 

In a perfect workd, you take that $28mil you're giving Moulson, Gorges, Bogo, Kuli, Gionta and Ennis... and give it to 2 top 4 D, and some scoring depth.    You could add two stud D at $6mil/each, and still have $14mil left over to add some scoring depth, or a stud LW for Jack to play with.... so many possibilities.

 

That said, I don't know how the hell GMTM is going to shed those contracts.    Maybe a tank team takes them on to reach the cap floor?   One can only hope.

[dudacek]

Interesting words from Murray on WGR

"The defence needs to get better and that's on me.

That's not on the players, it's not on the coaches, it's on me."

 

He basically said he wants a young guy - not necessarily a number one - who can play in the top four and all situations.

He thinks having him this year would have them in the playoffs.

It's the highest priority this summer.

 

Also strongly hinted he will be taking one in the draft by saying those guys generally go a little later than where he's been drafting in the first round; he's very happy with who he picked but there was an opportunity cost.

[GASabresIUFAN]

The good news is that Gionta, Franson and Kulikov and their nearly 12 mill in salary are gone after this season. Gorges can also be bought out for only 1.3 against the cap for the next 2 years. That frees up another 2.6 for next year. However we really don't need cap savings for next year.

 

The truly bad deals, Ennis, Bogo and Moulson are 15 mill of nearly dead money.

Ennis has 2 years left at 4.6 per season, but only $3.65 in actual salary per season

Moulson also has two years left at 5 per season, but with salaries of only 3 mil and 2 mil.

Bogo is the really bad one. 3 years left at 5.142, but with salary of 5.25, 6 and 6.

 

All three guys should be exposed to the draft and Murray should consider a deal with LV to take one. Ennis might go without a deal. Either way, I think Ennis and/or Moulson could be traded to a team that needs to get to the minimum cap, but doesn't want to actually spend to the minimum cap. Bogo is another matter. The only way we get rid of him is if he finds his game. The catch 22, is if he finds his game, GMTM might want to keep him.

 

Interesting words from Murray on WGR

"The defence needs to get better and that's on me.

That's not on the players, it's not on the coaches, it's on me."

He basically said he wants a young guy - not necessarily a number one - who can play in the top four and all situations.

He thinks having him this year would have them in the playoffs.

It's the highest priority this summer.

Also strongly hinted he will be taking one in the draft by saying those guys generally go a little later than where he's been drafting in the first round; he's very happy with who he picked but there was an opportunity cost.

I've been saying this for months. A little late Tim. Edited March 3, 2017 by GASabresIUFAN

[WildCard]

@SabresBuzz  12h12 hours ago

 ROR said the group needed to hear TMurray tell them that he believes in them. ROR said Murray flew solo, no coaches. Players were exited

[darksabre]

 

@SabresBuzz  12h12 hours ago

 ROR said the group needed to hear TMurray tell them that he believes in them. ROR said Murray flew solo, no coaches. Players were exited

 

[WildCard]

@ByMHarrington  12h12 hours ago

 #Sabres players raving about GMTM pregame speech. Said it was very needed post-deadline. They're still definitely talking playoffs.

[WildCard]

@ByMHarrington  12h12 hours ago

 Eichel on GMTM: "He's frustrated with the product of our play after the break. ... I thought it was a great speech. I took a lot out of it."

[darksabre]

Jesus Christ

[TrueBlueGED]

I legitimately don't know what to make of this. I mean, I don't even have a take, good, bad, or otherwise. I'm just confused. Is there precedent for GMs addressing their team sans coaches in the middle of the season?

[Drunkard]

I legitimately don't know what to make of this. I mean, I don't even have a take, good, bad, or otherwise. I'm just confused. Is there precedent for GMs addressing their team sans coaches in the middle of the season?

 

I have no idea but I'm clinging to hope that it means TM is ready to show DB the door and now he just has to get Pegula on board.

[dudacek]

I legitimately don't know what to make of this. I mean, I don't even have a take, good, bad, or otherwise. I'm just confused. Is there precedent for GMs addressing their team sans coaches in the middle of the season?

I'm positive it's happened before, and not just in Slapshot.

GMTM met with the coaches first, then told them he was going to meet with the players, then immediately walked in to the room.

 

If you watch the post-deadline presser then listen to the interview with GR the next day, Murray's demeanour is night and day. He had to get stuff off his chest and he did. The GR interview apparently happened right after his speech to the players.