GM Tim Murray - Time for a serious conversation

[stenbaro]

​​I don't have any problem with Murray not trading Kane.  He is only 25 and just entering his prime.  I would just make darn sure I sign him before he goes anywhere near UFA.  I was a little surprised he didn't move Girgensons for a defenseman.  I thought if anyone needed a change of team it was him and I think he could've brought a nice dman in return.  Not too many trades made today and I wonder if it had anything at all to do with the upcoming expansion draft or maybe that some teams who are having down years think its just due to an abnormally bad year for their team and they prefer to keep what they have...In any event heres to better times as a Sabres fan

[pi2000]

Sometimes the best trades are the one's you don't make.

[GASabresIUFAN]

@Yse

 

I think our disagreement comes down to "Just do something!"

I've always thought "do the right thing" is a better path.

 

But I do agree that sometimes you do need to "just do something" because the people around you need it.

"Too much talk, shut up and do something" is a fair criticism.

I think it's a better criticism of the coach than the GM.

 

Murray has made a ton of moves, he's completely turned over the roster from top to bottom and significantly improved it.

Calling him complacent — Thwomp now, not Yse — because he hasn't made a significant move in eight months is weak, IMO.

 

Dude, 

I agree that we are in inning 5 or 6 of a long-term process.  However today (this week actually) was an opportunity lost and more then a "small speed bump."  Although, I do accept that teams were scared off by Kulikov's back.  

 

What do you think the offers for Franson were? A 4th rd pick? A 5th rd pick?  Those have value.  The more PPP you have (Players, Prospects and Picks) the more currency you have in the NHL and sometimes you hit the lottery on those later picks.  After all  two player rumored to be on Buffalo's radar were Sami Vatanen was a 4th rd pick and Ben Hutton a 5th.  However that 4th rd pick could have also been parlayed into something to improve the Sabres now.  After all Jordie Benn, who is a better player (at least this season) then Kulikov, Bogo and Gorges, was traded to Mon for a 4th rd pick and AAAA D Greg Pateryn.  Benn is signed for 2 more years at only a paltry 1.1 per year.  Getting him would have solidified half of our bottom pair for the next 2 years for next to nothing.  

 

Mon also picked up solid 25 yr old Brandon Davidson from Edm (he has 1 year left at 1.425) for tiny David Desharnais.  These are deals that GMTM could have easily done, improved the team for this season and next and sent a positive message to the locker room and the fan base.  Instead he did nothing, sent a message to the locker room that mediocre hockey is ok and to the fans not that he was complacent. but maybe incompetent or worse the second coming for Darcy Regier who consistently over value his players.

Edited March 1, 2017 by GASabresIUFAN

[Randall Flagg]

Jordie Benn is awful.

[dudacek]

Jordie Benn is ###### awful.

True, but so is David Desharnais. Davidson might have been worth taking a flyer on.

Not sure for who though.

Edited March 1, 2017 by dudacek

[Drunkard]

Jordie Benn is ###### awful.

I've never really watched him, I just know he's kind of like COR or Keith Gretzky. Is he worse than who the Sabres are icing? Could he have been sent down to Rochester?

[dudacek]

GMTM said he was also trying to set the table for buying young players but that didn't happen.

Hard to say whether he tried hard enough without seeing the prices.

 

I also think big picture Murray sees better moves available at the draft/pre expansion.

We weren't going to get the D Man we want from the Anaheims, Minnesotas or Islanders of the league today.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Anyone who thinks Benn is awful hasn't watched him enough and compared to the crap we have been icing, he is a superstar.

 

The guy plays nearly 19 minutes a night, leads his team in blocked shots, hits, is second in scoring and is a solid -3 on a bad hockey team.

 

This is how he was described by the Dallas media

the Stars are losing a 29-year-old veteran defender that has proven to be one of their best defensemen this season. He’s a veteran stay-at-home defender with grit, skill, and knowledge of the game. He can play consistently on the penalty kill

 

G-d forbid we add a D who can kill penalties and can give us 19 minutes from the 3rd pairing.

 

The point here isn't the player, it was the another opportunity to improve the Sabres that was squandered.  None of our terrible D were replaced and no other assets were acquired. 

Edited March 1, 2017 by GASabresIUFAN

[3putt]

Jordie Benn is ###### awful.

Sssshh...don't let facts interrupt good drama.  

Anyone who thinks Benn is awful hasn't watched him enough and compared to the crap we hwatchede been icing, he is a superstar.

 

The guy plays nearly 19 minutes a night, leads his team in blocked shots, hits, is second in scoring and is a solid -3 on a bad hockey team.

 

This is how he was described by the Dallas media

G-d forbid we add a D who can kill penalties and can give us 19 minutes from the 3rd pairing.

 

The here isn't the player, it was the another opportunity to improve the Sabres that was squandered.

And why is he being moved?  He is too slow and doesn’t fit the up tempo game Dallas plays. Sure send us another Gorges.  I have watched him and he is not an upgrade over anyone except Gorges.  And at what cost?  Futures that you say we have pissed away? If you are looking for insurance against injury it is a good move, but not a significant improvement for a young team that needs faster transition out of there zone.  

[Drunkard]

Sssshh...don't let facts interrupt good drama.

Yep. Better to tow the company line and swallow the bs from this organization whole.

 

Can't wait to see how much ticket prices go up this year. Until that waiting list disappears they'll be willing to accept mediocrity with the great DB leading the charge.

[JohnRobertEichel]

GMTM said he was also trying to set the table for buying young players but that didn't happen.

Hard to say whether he tried hard enough without seeing the prices.

 

I also think big picture Murray sees better moves available at the draft/pre expansion.

We weren't going to get the D Man we want from the Anaheims, Minnesotas or Islanders of the league today.

 

I don't see how Murray is ever going to get that top-2 d-man that we need at this point. Maybe by trading one or more of our future first round picks? I really don't want to trade Kane, but maybe that's the necessary sacrifice for a top d-man.

 

It's a shame Murray burned through all of our post-Regier trade assets without adding any defensemen beyond Risto, McCabe, and Guhle. And so much salary cap dead wood on next season's roster: Ennis and Gorges at about $4 million, Moulson at $5, Bogosian at $5.5...unbelievable.

[Scottysabres]

I don't see how Murray is ever going to get that top-2 d-man that we need at this point. Maybe by trading one or more of our future first round picks? I really don't want to trade Kane, but maybe that's the necessary sacrifice for a top d-man.

 

It's a shame Murray burned through all of our post-Regier trade assets without adding any defensemen beyond Risto, McCabe, and Guhle. And so much salary cap dead wood on next season's roster: Ennis and Gorges at about $4 million, Moulson at $5, Bogosian at $5.5...unbelievable.

That's 18.64 aav or 25.534247% of the salary cap if it stays flat at 73 mil ad projected.

 

Your right, that is disgusting.

[eman]

Dude, 

I agree that we are in inning 5 or 6 of a long-term process.  However today (this week actually) was an opportunity lost and more then a "small speed bump."  Although, I do accept that teams were scared off by Kulikov's back.  

 

What do you think the offers for Franson were? A 4th rd pick? A 5th rd pick?  Those have value.  The more PPP you have (Players, Prospects and Picks) the more currency you have in the NHL and sometimes you hit the lottery on those later picks.  After all  two player rumored to be on Buffalo's radar were Sami Vatanen was a 4th rd pick and Ben Hutton a 5th.  However that 4th rd pick could have also been parlayed into something to improve the Sabres now.  After all Jordie Benn, who is a better player (at least this season) then Kulikov, Bogo and Gorges, was traded to Mon for a 4th rd pick and AAAA D Greg Pateryn.  Benn is signed for 2 more years at only a paltry 1.1 per year.  Getting him would have solidified half of our bottom pair for the next 2 years for next to nothing.  

 

Mon also picked up solid 25 yr old Brandon Davidson from Edm (he has 1 year left at 1.425) for tiny David Desharnais.  These are deals that GMTM could have easily done, improved the team for this season and next and sent a positive message to the locker room and the fan base.  Instead he did nothing, sent a message to the locker room that mediocre hockey is ok and to the fans not that he was complacent. but maybe incompetent or worse the second coming for Darcy Regier who consistently over value his playersThank yio

Thank you! Once again, my thoughts exactly. Montreal got better by not giving away too much at all. They addressed a shortcoming in their lineup (size and a little grit) and went after it. I am not sure we even tried. Hell, all I truly want to see first and foremost is a new head coach! (and Montreal did that too) I think we have offence that will produce under a different system.  Say what you want about Bergevin, at least you can't say he didn't try, same in Toronto with Lamoriello & Shanahan, they got some small pieces to make a good run for a playoff spot. We sat idle. Both those clubs gave up very little in return. maybe next season DDB and GMTM can tell me to go #### myself as this team comes roaring out of the gate but I am seriously betting on more of the same. Year 4 of the rebuild and perhaps year 9 of no playoffs. Sad as hell.

[Scottysabres]

nfreeman, you asked me in another thread if I had thought Terry Pegula made money off of the Sabres.

Would you be surprised if I said yes?

But others point out he's infused 100's of millions. I counter with a simple fact, and no matter how anyone attempts to side-step it, it is a fact. And that fact is this, every penny Pegula has spent falls in to 1 of 3 categories, all profitable.

 

Equity, direct stake in a brand or physical location that appreciates over time for various reasons......check

 

Write offs, all that cash he expended for contract buyouts, firings, etc. etc. Those are worth more than the money spent.

 

Political capitol, when your playing at the level Pegula is where an entire regions fan base (the Buffalo Sabres and the Buffalo Bills in this case) which has a great deal of it spread nationally puts an owner of those assets in a position to move things beyond the local entertainment seen sports wise. It opens up many other venues.

 

And while I understand he has done this from the beginning as a passion, let's not be pretentious enough to believe it's an Oprah car give away to the audience, look at it for what it is, more like a Catholic Charity, its passion and goal are well intentioned, but their are, how shall we say it delicately?, administrative costs.

 

There is always a method behind the madness.......even philanthropy.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Sssshh...don't let facts interrupt good drama.  

And why is he being moved?  He is too slow and doesn’t fit the up tempo game Dallas plays. Sure send us another Gorges.  I have watched him and he is not an upgrade over anyone except Gorges.  And at what cost?  Futures that you say we have pissed away? If you are looking for insurance against injury it is a good move, but not a significant improvement for a young team that needs faster transition out of there zone.  

 

This isn't about the player specifically.  I brought up Benn and Davidson because they are better then what we are fielding and came at a very low cost to a division rival.  They are both also signed for next year and good prices.  However they are samples of what can be done by a creative GM to try to improve the team.  Whether you like Benn or Davidson is immaterial.  The point was GMTM sat on his hands while others worked to improve their teams.

[darksabre]

So GMTM had no trouble throwing the players under the bus today. Clearly he thinks this isn't his fault or the fault of his coaches.

 

So we all agree that this team has some bad players on it. Does GMTM actually expect them to be better? Sure, we expected them to be better, but we're fans. Surely GMTM can see that his roster isn't working. Should he not be accepting some responsibility here?

[Huckleberry]

So GMTM had no trouble throwing the players under the bus today. Clearly he thinks this isn't his fault or the fault of his coaches.

 

So we all agree that this team has some bad players on it. Does GMTM actually expect them to be better? Sure, we expected them to be better, but we're fans. Surely GMTM can see that his roster isn't working. Should he not be accepting some responsibility here?

 

Did he actually throw the players under the buss, doesn't seem his style.   Will have to listen to the interview when I get home.

[nfreeman]

nfreeman, you asked me in another thread if I had thought Terry Pegula made money off of the Sabres.

Would you be surprised if I said yes?

But others point out he's infused 100's of millions. I counter with a simple fact, and no matter how anyone attempts to side-step it, it is a fact. And that fact is this, every penny Pegula has spent falls in to 1 of 3 categories, all profitable.

 

Equity, direct stake in a brand or physical location that appreciates over time for various reasons......check

 

Write offs, all that cash he expended for contract buyouts, firings, etc. etc. Those are worth more than the money spent.

 

Political capitol, when your playing at the level Pegula is where an entire regions fan base (the Buffalo Sabres and the Buffalo Bills in this case) which has a great deal of it spread nationally puts an owner of those assets in a position to move things beyond the local entertainment seen sports wise. It opens up many other venues.

 

And while I understand he has done this from the beginning as a passion, let's not be pretentious enough to believe it's an Oprah car give away to the audience, look at it for what it is, more like a Catholic Charity, its passion and goal are well intentioned, but their are, how shall we say it delicately?, administrative costs.

 

There is always a method behind the madness.......even philanthropy.

 

Regarding the equity:  TP spent $189MM to buy the Sabres and a substantial amount immediately thereafter on capital improvements.  If you include operating losses he's probably in for at least $250MM at this point.  There is really no way to know how much the team is worth now.  I'm confident if the team were put up for sale subject to the condition that it could not be moved, there wouldn't be many bidders.

 

Regarding write-offs:  I have no idea what you mean.  The tax benefits for operating costs are by definition much less -- in TP's case probably about 70% less -- than the actual cash spent.

 

Regarding political capital -- again, I have no idea what you mean.  Do you think TP has some kind of economic synergy due to the existence of WNY expats around the country?  How many of those do you think they are?  What exactly is the economic benefit to TP?

 

If you think TP has some kind of plan going here to turn the Sabres into a cash cow, I'd love to hear some specifics.  Because I think it's pretty clear that he has more cash than he knows what to do with, so (like many of us would do) he bought his and his wife's favorite sports teams and he's throwing money at them in the attempt to restore the glory days.

[SwampD]

While I honestly do not believe that Pegula's reason for owning either team was to make money, I do not believe that he will end up losing money when he (or his estate) sells either team.

[GASabresIUFAN]

I'm being a little tongue in cheek by calling him Darcy Regier 2, but there sometimes is a little truth in sarcasm.

 

I personally thought that he started off with such promise.  Regier was such a sit on your hands guys, but early GMTM was aggressive and not afraid to go for it.  I didn't love every deal (Fasching & Lehner deals in particular), but I was glad he was aggressive.

 

But something has happened over the last 12 months, that seems to have changed GMTM for the worse.  His lack of responsiveness to the problems he created on D in both Buffalo and Rochester is bordering on madness.  He has added forward after forward through the draft and major acquisitions (Kane, ROR, Okposo) to play a tough uptempo game and he relegated the D to an after thought., especially in the draft.  

 

When he came to Buffalo are D pipeline was full of potential NHL players in Risto (1st rd), Zadorov (1st rd), Pysyk (1st rd), McCabe (2nd rd) and McNabb (3rd rd).  He did keep the best of the bunch, but as guys graduated or moved on (or out) he never replaced them, except with one 2nd rd pick in 2015 (Guhle).  So now our pipeline of legit D with NHL futures is reduced to Guhle and 4th rd pick Borgen and neither plays pro hockey yet.  

 

Furthermore to replace the D players and prospects he traded for or acquired:

1) A slow physical D in Josh Gorges, who continues to get even slower

2) A slow tall but not overly physical right side offensive D who no one else wanted in Cody Franson despite saying we needed a left shooting player.

3)  A large, fast, talented, but underachieving injury prone D with terrible possession numbers in Zach Bogosian and his mind blowing 5+ mill salary until 2022

4) An overpaid all around D with mediocre possession numbers dumped by a playoff team in Kuilkov.

 

Predictably none of these guys have worked out, especially this season, which has turned the Sabres D zone into a shooting gallery every game and the laughing stock in the NHL.

 

Murray was sold to us as this great talent scout and while he seems to have mostly drafted well, he has yet to produce a full time NHLer except no brainer picks Eichel and Reinhart.  He also promised us a pretty quick turn around 4 years ago, but while we are improved, we aren't even sniffing being a contender, which is all the more glaring when you look at Tor got from last in the NHL to the playoffs in one year.

 

The roster he built has significant forward dead weight as well, starting, but not ending with Moulson and Ennis.

 

Then when the going got tough and injuries started piling up, especially on defense, GMTM sat on his hands and watched the team's season spiral into the abyss.  The nearly last straw for me was his failure at this trade deadline to trade away some dead weight or acquire someone to help the team improve.  

 

He has one more chance this summer to improve the club and create a playoff team.  Another repeat performance by this team early next year should earn GMTM his walking papers.

 

 

 

 

[WildCard]

Montreal did not get better. They brought in grit and pretty much said, 'We're praying for Thomas-Julien 2.0'

[Scottysabres]

Regarding the equity:  TP spent $189MM to buy the Sabres and a substantial amount immediately thereafter on capital improvements.  If you include operating losses he's probably in for at least $250MM at this point.  There is really no way to know how much the team is worth now.  I'm confident if the team were put up for sale subject to the condition that it could not be moved, there wouldn't be many bidders.

 

Regarding write-offs:  I have no idea what you mean.  The tax benefits for operating costs are by definition much less -- in TP's case probably about 70% less -- than the actual cash spent.

 

Regarding political capital -- again, I have no idea what you mean.  Do you think TP has some kind of economic synergy due to the existence of WNY expats around the country?  How many of those do you think they are?  What exactly is the economic benefit to TP?

 

If you think TP has some kind of plan going here to turn the Sabres into a cash cow, I'd love to hear some specifics.  Because I think it's pretty clear that he has more cash than he knows what to do with, so (like many of us would do) he bought his and his wife's favorite sports teams and he's throwing money at them in the attempt to restore the glory days.

Equity is the long view, or long-term return. He doesn't plan to sell the team and has stated it will be turned over to his daughter. I am sure that tradition will continue long after I've left this world.

 

The write offs are not less than 70%. Those losses tie in to a multi-billion dollar company, PS&E which is the parent company of both the Sabres and Bills. As such those tax write offs become substantially more valuable at the parent corporation level on both the state and federal level. For example, I'm aware of a 650 million dollar corporation that got to write off 88% of a 102 million dollar capitol loss.

 

Political capitol is the ability to effectively move future endeavors forward with an ease not met by other entities. If you believe it does not exist, and I'm not saying you do, but if that is the case, I know first hand that it does exist.

As for pointing out the expanded fan base, many Buffalo expats become successful in other parts of the nation, but the inclusion of them was to point out areas such ad south and central Florida or Phoenix hold decent size expats that still spend on the team for merchandise.

 

I didn't state he was planning on turning the Sabres in to a cash cow. What I did say was the expenditures being touted aren't always as large as they appear.

[WildCard]

As much as I disagree with firing him, I understand the thread, and am running out of legs to stand on to support him. Who knows, maybe I'm wrong and he is a bad GM

 

But God dammit I know I'm right with Byslma :lol:

[Huckleberry]

I like GMTM and all the trades his made so far, I think some of you are just to impatient.  :unsure:

[GASabresIUFAN]

As much as I disagree with firing him, I understand the thread, and am running out of legs to stand on to support him. Who knows, maybe I'm wrong and he is a bad GM

 

But God dammit I know I'm right with Byslma :lol:

The funny thing is I'm not worried about DD.  I don't think he has done a wonderful job, but somethings, like our goaltending and PP, are much improved during his tenure.  I'm not sure I can properly evaluate him as a coach, until GMTM gives him a roster worth coaching, especially on D.  

 

IMHO it all start at the top. 

I like GMTM and all the trades his made so far, I think some of you are just to impatient.  :unsure:

 

You like the Kulikov deal?  You like the Fasching trade in which we gave up 2 2nd rd picks and McNabb for a 4th line forward (Delo) and another depth forward prospect we didn't need ?(Fasching - who I like by the way as a person and player; I just think we way over paid to get him) You like giving up a first for Legwand and Lehner, who has mostly been outperformed by two backups (Nilsson and Johnson)?  You like the Gorges trades?  How about the Franson signing?