GM Tim Murray - Time for a serious conversation

[Drunkard]

So we just settle for mediocrity?  Got it.  Other teams historically and currently can improve quicker, but I guess that's just too much for Buffalo.  Most can see that something is not right here and I'm not interested in staying the course on this version of the Sabres, but that indeed seems to be the plan.

 

Pretty much. Sometimes you just have to treat grown rich men like school children. The NHL is tough and if you expect too much out of these delicate flowers and special little snowflakes you'll run the risk of stunting their growth and development.

[GASabresIUFAN]

What is it about the lack of demand for our dead weight doesn't make sense?

Unless someone takes them off our hands, they remain ours.

 

He didn't get offers that he thought were fair value.

Are you saying he should have made those trades anyway?

In a word Yes! What is the value of keeping them? They don't make the team better and they are blocking roster spots that could go to other players we might want to get a longer look at such as Falk, Fedun, Nelson, Bodie, and maybe Guhle, Borgen or even Florentino when their season's end. Edited March 1, 2017 by GASabresIUFAN

[WildCard]

To make things worse, I have a sinking suspicion that he didn't trade Kulikov and Franson because he wants to re-sign them. After all he is such a shrewd judge of talent.

yeah if he resigns Franson I'm starting a Fire GMTM thread 

[Scottysabres]

Buffalo improved 27 points last year. Teams that make those kind of jumps historically slip a bit the next year.

But don't let the facts get in the way of you wanting thwomp something.

 

It bothers me that this team doesn't seem to play as well as its pieces, but I like a lot of those pieces.

I think blowing things up and making panicky trades is a more surefire path to mediocrity than sticking with the plan and improving it when and where you can.

 

I think what we discovered was that nobody wanted the dead weight. Murray didn't want to move them for pucks and I don't blame him.

I agree that it's time to play the kids. We can do that whether the dead weight is here or not.

 

 

 

 

Me too.

While I agree with you in so far as the team jump and what I would surmise is a temporary leveling off, I don't agree with your assessment on asset management by Murray.

If he could have gotten something, he should have taken it for Kulikov and Franson. Afterall, it's not like either of them are difference makers, and hey, maybe going to a contender or playoff bound team would have interested them, even as depth guys. But to get nothing, knowing the playoffs are not a reality is just poor asset management for UFA's.

 

As for the pieces not fitting, your absolutely correct. That, once again is on Tim Murray. There is a real disconnect in talent acquisition for this team when it comes to "fit".

 

Keeping Kane, and keeping him with Eichel, isn't maximizing Eichel's potential, it's actually hurting his goal production.

 

There is much more, to much to list. But this deadline was a chance to start to clear the table of useless clutter while getting a couple of edible crumbs.

 

Dissapointed in the organization to date overall, I'm hoping the off season changes that, but Murray leading the way that little bit of hope I have isn't growing in confidence.

[TrueBlueGED]

Buffalo improved 27 points last year. Teams that make those kind of jumps historically slip a bit the next year.

But don't let the facts get in the way of you wanting thwomp something.

 

It bothers me that this team doesn't seem to play as well as its pieces, but I like a lot of those pieces.

I think blowing things up and making panicky trades is a more surefire path to mediocrity than sticking with the plan and improving it when and where you can.

At what point do you re-evaluate your assessment of those pieces? This is one thing Darcy really struggled with. I'm becoming more than a little concerned Murray has the same fatal flaw.

[eman]

So we just settle for mediocrity?  Got it.  Other teams historically and currently can improve quicker, but I guess that's just too much for Buffalo.  Most can see that something is not right here and I'm not interested in staying the course on this version of the Sabres, but that indeed seems to be the plan.

Bingo! You nailed it! That is why my patience is wearing also. Just look up the highway to Toronto. Look at the Habs. Still a playoff team with Therrien but were in a downward spiral so Bergevin had the cajones to pull the trigger and get Julien back. After a little adjustment period the Habs are back on their game and then went out and got bigger up front at the deadline. not notable names but they addressed their weaknesses. All the while the Sabres just sit back counting on next season to be different. To be THE SEASON that it all comes together like the master plan. I am betting it will be exactly the same show with this coach and GM. Call me out if I am wrong. (and believe me, I've never wanted to be more wrong about this then now)

[TrueBlueGED]

yeah if he resigns Franson I'm starting a Fire GMTM thread

Franson is a decent to good 3rd pair Dman. This isn't the hill to die on.

[WildCard]

Franson is a decent to good 3rd pair Dman. This isn't the hill to die on.

It is with Fedun and Falk here

[GASabresIUFAN]

While I agree with you in so far as the team jump and what I would surmise is a temporary leveling off, I don't agree with your assessment on asset management by Murray.

If he could have gotten something, he should have taken it for Kulikov and Franson. Afterall, it's not like either of them are difference makers, and hey, maybe going to a contender or playoff bound team would have interested them, even as depth guys. But to get nothing, knowing the playoffs are not a reality is just poor asset management for UFA's.

As for the pieces not fitting, your absolutely correct. That, once again is on Tim Murray. There is a real disconnect in talent acquisition for this team when it comes to "fit".

Keeping Kane, and keeping him with Eichel, isn't maximizing Eichel's potential, it's actually hurting his goal production.

There is much more, to much to list. But this deadline was a chance to start to clear the table of useless clutter while getting a couple of edible crumbs.

Dissapointed in the organization to date overall, I'm hoping the off season changes that, but Murray leading the way that little bit of hope I have isn't growing in confidence.

Thank you

[WildCard]

@SabresBuzz  30m30 minutes ago

 "We didn't fly to Denver and get drink for three days", Murray said of his coaches. Murray blames his players for Denver and Arizona debacle

[pi2000]

 

@SabresBuzz  30m30 minutes ago

 "We didn't fly to Denver and get drink for three days", Murray said of his coaches. Murray blames his players for Denver and Arizona debacle

 

 

 

....so he's implying the players did?   Did they?  

[Randall Flagg]

What?

[WildCard]

Looks like True's fears are confirmed. Murray likes Bylsma

[dudacek]

While I agree with you in so far as the team jump and what I would surmise is a temporary leveling off, I don't agree with your assessment on asset management by Murray.

If he could have gotten something, he should have taken it for Kulikov and Franson. Afterall, it's not like either of them are difference makers, and hey, maybe going to a contender or playoff bound team would have interested them, even as depth guys. But to get nothing, knowing the playoffs are not a reality is just poor asset management for UFA's.

 

As for the pieces not fitting, your absolutely correct. That, once again is on Tim Murray. There is a real disconnect in talent acquisition for this team when it comes to "fit".

 

Keeping Kane, and keeping him with Eichel, isn't maximizing Eichel's potential, it's actually hurting his goal production.

 

There is much more, to much to list. But this deadline was a chance to start to clear the table of useless clutter while getting a couple of edible crumbs.

 

Dissapointed in the organization to date overall, I'm hoping the off season changes that, but Murray leading the way that little bit of hope I have isn't growing in confidence.

 

I think the atmosphere in the room is better served by keeping Kulikov and Franson than replacing them with Burgdoerfer and Bodie and a 4th and a 6th.

We are in the process of building. Those moves smack of giving up. I don't think they make us better and I'm pretty sure the guys in the room would agree.

At what point do you re-evaluate your assessment of those pieces? This is one thing Darcy really struggled with. I'm becoming more than a little concerned Murray has the same fatal flaw.

 

Very fair. Darcy sat on those pieces for five years. Murray hasn't finished year two but still a legitimate question.

 

I think this season is about seeing what we've got, then fixing it.

I've said it before, I'll judge him on how he moves to fix our flaws this summer.

Edited March 1, 2017 by dudacek

[TrueBlueGED]

Very fair. Darcy sat on those pieces for five years. Murray hasn't finished year two.

Building on this, how long do you think is fair to give to evaluate those pieces? I think two seasons should be enough, and thus expect action this offseason.

It is with Fedun and Falk here

Both have been nice surprised for the length of a cup of coffee, with zero expectations on them. Again, just not the hill to die on.

[dudacek]

Building on this, how long do you think is fair to give to evaluate those pieces? I think two seasons should be enough, and thus expect action this offseason.

 

 

Answered with an edit above.

It needs to happen this summer.

[Thwomp!]

 

@SabresBuzz  30m30 minutes ago

 "We didn't fly to Denver and get drink for three days", Murray said of his coaches. Murray blames his players for Denver and Arizona debacle

 

 

First,  :wallbash:  :wallbash:  :wallbash:

 

Second, I said awhile back that I was having a dawning revelation that we're .   It's getting worse and worse.  DDB will be coach for much longer than most of us think possible at this point.

 

Third, Timmy you're the boss!  You can address underperforming players and behavior several ways!  You did absolutely nothing in that regard.  If it is the players fault, as you have consistently stated, do something about it!

[Scottysabres]

I think the atmosphere in the room is better served by keeping Kulikov and Franson than replacing them with Burgdoerfer and Bodie and a 4th and a 6th.

We are in the process of building. Those moves smack of giving up. I don't think they make us better and I'm pretty sure the guys in the room would agree.

Maybe, or it could signal to them what they are most likely already aware of. And that is further changes are coming.

 

At this point and time in their careers, I'm positive the players on this roster are cognizant of the fact that the players on their current roster are not all going to be here long term.

 

And I'm more than positive they know situation currently, they see the standings. When you have team mates calling out problems, they are more than well aware. If your telling me that "atmosphere" is healthy or has room for significant enough improvement to alter the "culture of losing" plainly developing this season.....well, let's just call me skeptical that some time and magic pixy dust is going to change that.

[dudacek]

Well, let's just call me skeptical that some time and magic pixy dust is going to change that.

 

Can't disagree.

But two good defencemen and a different coach might.

[LTS]

So we just settle for mediocrity?  Got it.  Other teams historically and currently can improve quicker, but I guess that's just too much for Buffalo.  Most can see that something is not right here and I'm not interested in staying the course on this version of the Sabres, but that indeed seems to be the plan.

 

Just because a timeline does not agree with you does not mean it's wrong.  It doesn't mean it's settling. Your narrative is full of logistical holes. The ability to move players is being handcuffed by the planning that every GM has to do to prepare for a) a playoff run and B) the expansion draft.  Yet, for some reason, despite this being stated over and over again by GMs, the media, and people on this board, people want to ignore the fact that there is a new team in Vegas next year.

 

You want change but refuse to accept that the environment is not right for change.  Keep pushing that rock.

 

Dude, you often make very good points, but this doesn't make any sense. I wasn't asking GMTM to make huge sweeping changes at the deadline, but I was asking him to start moving out the dead weight on this team. At this point there was zero point in keeping any of our UFA's except maybe Nilsson, who we should consider re-signing. None are part of the future, and keeping them might help us win a few extra games this season, but so what. We aren't going to the playoffs regardless. I'd rather have 5th rd picks, or even a bag of pucks and open up roster slots for younger players. I'd rather see Baptiste then Gionta, Nelson, Bodie and Falk vs Kulikov and Franson.

 

Frankly the headmaster (gmtm), teachers (DD) and the school leaders (Gorges, Gionta, and even ROR) have failed this team this year. I'm sorry but what C student was I pulling out of school? I've been very clear that I'd trade Kane for a top 4 D this off-season in the right deal, if that is who you are refering to. I also understand the reasons not to trade him, but that has nothing to do with my complaints about this failed deadline.

 

So, let's say you throw away your pending UFA's for nothing.  You have to pull up a few D from the Amerks.  Granted the Amerks aren't very good but you pull their top talent away and they are even worse.  That's okay right because it's just the Amerks right?  Except you still have Nylander down there, you have Ullmark down there.  Do you want them playing minutes on the Amerks with a team that is even worse because you wanted to move out two D for a draft pick that won't turn into anything?  So, then we talk about how Ullmark is shell-shocked and Nylander is frustrated because they spend all their time in their end.  These things are all interconnected, it's more complex than you want to admit.

 

As for your school reference, the star pupil, Mr. Eichel has decided to also take some shifts off here and there and failed his class in the Odyssey of the Mind competition.  

 

 

Yep, jettisoning any dead weight, which this team has an abundance of = panicky trades.

 

The team's trajectory and performance this year must be maintained at all costs!

 

As to the bolded, the trade deadline is one way to shake things up.  Doing nothing, when you're in the Sabres current position, is just inexplicable to me.

 

It's being explained quite well.  It might be unexplainable to you, but it's certainly not inexplicable.

 

 

To make things worse, I have a sinking suspicion that he didn't trade Kulikov and Franson because he wants to re-sign them. After all he is such a shrewd judge of talent.

 

Murray is widely regarded to be a judge of talent by people who live in the hockey world.  You can choose to think they are all wrong.  It's not unheard of these days for people who are completely outside of a particular discipline to disregard experts and judge them to be incorrect.

 

Murray could have signed Kulikov at any point this season.  If he wanted to sign him, why wouldn't he have done it?  Is it because he hoped someone would offer a big trade for a UFA defenseman?  

[Drunkard]

I think the atmosphere in the room is better served by keeping Kulikov and Franson than replacing them with Burgdoerfer and Bodie and a 4th and a 6th.

We are in the process of building. Those moves smack of giving up. I don't think they make us better and I'm pretty sure the guys in the room would agree.

 

Very fair. Darcy sat on those pieces for five years. Murray hasn't finished year two but still a legitimate question.

 

I think this season is about seeing what we've got, then fixing it.

I've said it before, I'll judge him on how he moves to fix our flaws this summer.

 

Who cares if it smacks of giving up? This season is toast. Anyone who doesn't realize it is an idiot, whether it's a fan, player, or coach. Sometimes cashing out is the best move.

[dudacek]

Who cares if it smacks of giving up? This season is toast. Anyone who doesn't realize it is an idiot, whether it's a fan, player, or coach. Sometimes cashing out is the best move.

 

That sounds to me like embracing a culture of losing, not rejecting it.

It's not just about this season.

[GASabresIUFAN]

I think the atmosphere in the room is better served by keeping Kulikov and Franson than replacing them with Burgdoerfer and Bodie and a 4th and a 6th.

We are in the process of building. Those moves smack of giving up. I don't think they make us better and I'm pretty sure the guys in the room would agree.

 

First, the players have already given up. We saw that in Col, Az and again last night. This year is over. Frankly I don't care if the "room" feels better that these two awful players are still around. We were better with Falk and Fedun in the lineup and those were the guys likely to replace Kulikov and Franson if moved until the kids arrive.

 

Neither guy is part of the rebuild long term so trading them does nothing to disrupt the rebuid process. Furthermore we need better talent and it can come from a higher 1st rd pick or from extra picks regardless of round. For example two of the players that GMTM was rumored to be interested in were former 4th rd pick Sami Vatanen and former 5th rd pick Ben Hutton.

[Thwomp!]

Just because a timeline does not agree with you does not mean it's wrong.  It doesn't mean it's settling. Your narrative is full of logistical holes. The ability to move players is being handcuffed by the planning that every GM has to do to prepare for a) a playoff run and B) the expansion draft.  Yet, for some reason, despite this being stated over and over again by GMs, the media, and people on this board, people want to ignore the fact that there is a new team in Vegas next year.

 

You want change but refuse to accept that the environment is not right for change.  Keep pushing that rock.

 

 

So, let's say you throw away your pending UFA's for nothing.  You have to pull up a few D from the Amerks.  Granted the Amerks aren't very good but you pull their top talent away and they are even worse.  That's okay right because it's just the Amerks right?  Except you still have Nylander down there, you have Ullmark down there.  Do you want them playing minutes on the Amerks with a team that is even worse because you wanted to move out two D for a draft pick that won't turn into anything?  So, then we talk about how Ullmark is shell-shocked and Nylander is frustrated because they spend all their time in their end.  These things are all interconnected, it's more complex than you want to admit.

 

As for your school reference, the star pupil, Mr. Eichel has decided to also take some shifts off here and there and failed his class in the Odyssey of the Mind competition.  

 

 

 

It's being explained quite well.  It might be unexplainable to you, but it's certainly not inexplicable.

 

 

 

Murray is widely regarded to be a judge of talent by people who live in the hockey world.  You can choose to think they are all wrong.  It's not unheard of these days for people who are completely outside of a particular discipline to disregard experts and judge them to be incorrect.

 

Murray could have signed Kulikov at any point this season.  If he wanted to sign him, why wouldn't he have done it?  Is it because he hoped someone would offer a big trade for a UFA defenseman?  

 

I think this season has shown that moves, even drastic ones are needed.  Instead we get complacency despite what's been said in the past.

 

You're fine with that complacency and I'm not.

 

I judge Murray on his record as GM of the Sabres, not what "other people" say (which is also a popular political trick these days).  The problem with Murray is that his legend was built before he did anything and that legend still undeservedly exists for many.

[dudacek]

@Yse

 

I think our disagreement comes down to "Just do something!"

I've always thought "do the right thing" is a better path.

 

But I do agree that sometimes you do need to "just do something" because the people around you need it.

"Too much talk, shut up and do something" is a fair criticism.

I think it's a better criticism of the coach than the GM.

 

Murray has made a ton of moves, he's completely turned over the roster from top to bottom and significantly improved it.

Calling him complacent — Thwomp now, not Yse — because he hasn't made a significant move in eight months is weak, IMO.

Edited March 1, 2017 by dudacek