GM Tim Murray - Time for a serious conversation

[GASabresIUFAN]

He told the team it was up to them and they crapped the bed. The consequences are? So far nothing. Everyone still has a job. No has been fired, traded or demoted. I guess losing is acceptable.

 

The lack of movement may also be an indication of the value of our players. Nothing.

Edited March 1, 2017 by GASabresIUFAN

[BetweenThePipes00]

He told the team it was up to them and they crapped the bed. The consequences are? So far nothing. Everyone still has a job. No has been fired, traded or demoted. I guess losing is acceptable.

 

The lack of movement may also be an indication of the value of our players. Nothing.

Is this your first trade deadline? Long way to go.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Is this your first trade deadline? Long way to go.

No question. The deals will trickle in until 5pm, but .......

 

Just a thought; Gionta says he wants to stay and see this through, but the team has failed in the big games under his leadership. He has had a good year, but it would be a strong message to trade him.

Edited March 1, 2017 by GASabresIUFAN

[BetweenThePipes00]

No question. The deals will trickle in until 5pm, but .......

 

Just a thought; Gionta says he wants to stay and see this through, but the team has failed in the big games under his leadership. He has had a good year, but it would be a strong message to trade him.

 

Yeah, a strong message to the rest of the NHL and the guys in the room that you'll treat veteran players like crap by ignoring their request to stay put to get a conditional 4th round pick.

Sorry but this idea that "the team isn't as good as we want so someone must be punished" attitude that has taken hold with sports fans in general over the last few years drives me crazy. Players don't respond to that. Besides, the effort and leadership on this team are not the problem. Their defensemen suck, they are not deep enough yet, and the coach's system may be a problem. Everyone knew these things could be issues BEFORE THE SEASON, yet somehow people are stunned and wants heads to roll. 

Maybe I am too patient, next year at this time I'll probably feel different if they are in the same spot, but for now I don't want them making panic moves.

Edited March 1, 2017 by BetweenThePipes00

[Scottysabres]

Is this your first trade deadline? Long way to go.

Agreed. Trades will be coming in until 5 or so I'd guess.

One thing I have noticed, an increase of AHL addressing by GM's

[GASabresIUFAN]

Yeah, a strong message to the rest of the NHL and the guys in the room that you'll treat veteran players like crap by ignoring their request to stay put to get a conditional 4th round pick.

Sorry but this idea that "the team isn't as good as we want so someone must be punished" attitude that has taken hold with sports fans in general over the last few years drives me crazy. Players don't respond to that. Besides, the effort and leadership on this team are not the problem. Their defensemen suck, they are not deep enough yet, and the coach's system may be a problem. Everyone knew these things could be issues BEFORE THE SEASON, yet somehow people are stunned and wants heads to roll.

Maybe I am too patient, next year at this time I'll probably feel different if they are in the same spot, but for now I don't want them making panic moves.

Real world; you don't do your job, you don't keep your job. This board wants DD tossed for his system's alleged failure. Ok, but who holds the players who fail to execute to task? Gionta is partly responsible for the team's failure in big games. I have harped on GMTM failures to supply DD a good D group since the beginning of the season, but I believe the leadership group in the locker room has also failed. Most players understand that they can be waiver, bought out, traded, sent down, if they don't perform. Why should Gionta not be held to account?

 

I want players heads to roll. All the UFAs need to be gone, except Nilsson, and this should just be the beginning. Gorges should be waived and then sent down and then bought out this summer. We should move Sam to 3rd center, and trade away either Larsson or Girgensons. I'm ok with Kane being traded this summer if we getva legit top 4 D. How many more wins would we have if we didn't give up 40 shots a night and killed a few penalties now and then? Fix the dang D Timmy and do it now.

 

I've been patient for 45 years. My patience is at an end.

Edited March 1, 2017 by GASabresIUFAN

[BetweenThePipes00]

Real world; you don't do your job, you don't keep your job. This board wants DD tossed for his system's alleged failure. Ok, but who holds the players who fail to execute to task? Gionta is partly responsible for the team's failure in big games. I have harped on GMTM failures to supply DD a good D group since the beginning of the season, but I believe the leadership group in the locker room has also failed. Most players understand that they can be waiver, bought out, traded, sent down, if they don't perform. Why should Gionta not be held to account?

 

He will be held to account if he was so bad at his job that when he hits the market this offseason no one wants him. Trading him now does nothing but send a bad message to the room and veterans around the league you might want to sign in the summer or next summer or whatever.

You're just looking for someone to blame, and you can blame him all you want I guess, but trading him makes no sense. Gionta is the same guy the players in Montreal revered as a leader. He is telling you he WANTS to stay. If your response is essentially, "Nah, sorry, you didn't lead well enough, we only improved 27 points last season but what have you done for me lately?!? You must be held accountable!" ... I mean, would you want to play for that team? Not to mention, who is the leader then? Gorges? At least Gionta can play a little. Who is listening to Gorges? 

I just don't see how it helps at all. He's not the problem. They don't have enough good players yet. That's the problem. 

[chileanseabass]

What good has Murray done during his time in Buffalo?  I understand it takes time, but nothing seems to be better than it was when he took over.  The defense is horrible, and he moved two NHL regulars for pretty much nothing (McNabb, Pysyk).  He moved a 1st for a mediocre NHL goalie.  Kane is starting to prove his worth, so I'll give him that deal and the O'Reilly trade as "wins."  He was supposedly a great developer of talent and had top AHL clubs under his watch, and the Amerks suck.  That's even with Buffalo signing top level "4A" players to big money deals to play in Rochester.  To top it all off, he signed Bylsma as coach.  The writing has been on the wall for months that this year is another loss... move your expiring assets and play out the string.  And now he couldn't even find takers for Kulikov and Franson?  Someone wasn't willing to give a 5th rounder?  C'mon.  I'm over GMTM.  

Edited March 1, 2017 by ChileanSeaBass

[GASabresIUFAN]

He will be held to account if he was so bad at his job that when he hits the market this offseason no one wants him. Trading him now does nothing but send a bad message to the room and veterans around the league you might want to sign in the summer or next summer or whatever.

You're just looking for someone to blame, and you can blame him all you want I guess, but trading him makes no sense. Gionta is the same guy the players in Montreal revered as a leader. He is telling you he WANTS to stay. If your response is essentially, "Nah, sorry, you didn't lead well enough, we only improved 27 points last season but what have you done for me lately?!? You must be held accountable!" ... I mean, would you want to play for that team? Not to mention, who is the leader then? Gorges? At least Gionta can play a little. Who is listening to Gorges? 

I just don't see how it helps at all. He's not the problem. They don't have enough good players yet. That's the problem.

 

Ok lets put it another way. Will re-signing help this team next season? The answer is likely no. So what is the benefit to keeping him? The answer is nothing.

 

However now that the deadline is past the question is moot.

[Samson's Flow]

What good has Murray done during his time in Buffalo?  I understand it takes time, but nothing seems to be better than it was when he took over.  The defense is horrible, and he moved two NHL regulars for pretty much nothing (McNabb, Pysyk).  He moved a 1st for a mediocre NHL goalie.  Kane is starting to prove his worth, so I'll give him that deal and the O'Reilly trade as "wins."  He was supposedly a great developer of talent and had top AHL clubs under his watch, and the Amerks suck.  That's even with Buffalo signing top level "4A" players to big money deals to play in Rochester.  To top it all off, he signed Bylsma as coach.  The writing has been on the wall for months that this year is another loss... move your expiring assets and play out the string.  And now he couldn't even find takers for Kulikov and Franson?  Someone wasn't willing to give a 5th rounder?  C'mon.  I'm over GMTM.  

You're not wrong... 

[GASabresIUFAN]

What good has Murray done during his time in Buffalo?  I understand it takes time, but nothing seems to be better than it was when he took over.  The defense is horrible, and he moved two NHL regulars for pretty much nothing (McNabb, Pysyk).  He moved a 1st for a mediocre NHL goalie.  Kane is starting to prove his worth, so I'll give him that deal and the O'Reilly trade as "wins."  He was supposedly a great developer of talent and had top AHL clubs under his watch, and the Amerks suck.  That's even with Buffalo signing top level "4A" players to big money deals to play in Rochester.  To top it all off, he signed Bylsma as coach.  The writing has been on the wall for months that this year is another loss... move your expiring assets and play out the string.  And now he couldn't even find takers for Kulikov and Franson?  Someone wasn't willing to give a 5th rounder?  C'mon.  I'm over GMTM.

 

It just shows what are UFAs were worth. Nothing, but we knew that already.

[LTS]

Gionta wasn't going to move unless he agreed to it and a lot of people in the hockey world will respect that.  You don't have to respect it as a fan.

 

I look at the trade deadline deals and can't find one deal where Franson or Kulikov are the piece that was missed out on.  Why not trade them for a 5th round pick?  What freakin' good does that do?  What does a 5th round pick do?  It moved a D off the roster in a year when the D depth is already too shallow.

 

I guess it's a difference in patience level with people.  Being able to fix everything immediately is almost never achievable.

 

I'm fine with Murray... and as far as the Bylsma situation we already know that Murray does not act alone in that regard.

[dudacek]

Real world; you don't do your job, you don't keep your job...

I want players heads to roll.

I've been patient for 45 years. My patience is at an end.

If your kid was failing badly then transformed himself into a C+ student, would you be furious if he followed that up with another C+ semester? That's how I feel about this years Sabres.

 

You don't switch schools and toss out everything that just happened to help him take another next step. What it's about now is finding out what the kid is good at, steering him in that direction and surrounding him with the support that allows him to succeed in that field.

 

If the right trades weren't available, you don't make them.

Edited March 1, 2017 by dudacek

[WildCard]

If your kid was failing badly then transformed himself into a C+ student, would you be furious if he followed that up with another C+ semester? That's how I feel about this years Sabres.

 

You don't switch schools and toss out everything that just happened to help him take the next step. What it's about now is finding out what the kid is good at, steering him in that direction and surrounding him with the support that allows him to succeed in that field.

 

If the right trades weren't available, you don't make them.

If only we had someone who's sole job was this purpose....

[Thwomp!]

If your kid was failing badly then transformed himself into a C+ student, would you be furious if he followed that up with another C+ semester? That's how I feel about this years Sabres.

 

You don't switch schools and toss out everything that just happened to help him take another next step. What it's about now is finding out what the kid is good at, steering him in that direction and surrounding him with the support that allows him to succeed in that field.

 

If the right trades weren't available, you don't make them.

 

So we just settle for mediocrity?  Got it.  Other teams historically and currently can improve quicker, but I guess that's just too much for Buffalo.  Most can see that something is not right here and I'm not interested in staying the course on this version of the Sabres, but that indeed seems to be the plan.

[nfreeman]

I agree that it's far too soon to come to any conclusions on GMTM.  The fans that applauded the terrible decision to tank need to stop kidding themselves that it would be quick and painless to pop back up from the basement to contender level.  They were historically bad for the 2 full years ending the season before last (and pretty bad the 2 seasons before that).  There was reason to hope for better this year, but the odds were against it.

 

HOWEVER -- I am gong to need something real to make me think that there is reason to hope for a better outcome next year.  It can't just be maturity of Eichel, Reino, Risto, McCabe and Lehner plus a couple of Kulikov-level additions.

 

I think I need a new coach, and I need to feel confident that this one is 100% GMTM's call. 

 

And if they're going to make that change, it needs to be pretty soon after the season ends, so they can have their choice of whoever's available, and so the new coach can install his system in preseason and hit the ground running.

 

Otherwise, it's hard to avoid the cold premonition that they will come out to another crappy start, DDB will get canned by New Year's and it will be too late to salvage the season -- which will bring us to a full 8 years with no playoffs.

[GASabresIUFAN]

If your kid was failing badly then transformed himself into a C+ student, would you be furious if he followed that up with another C+ semester? That's how I feel about this years Sabres.

You don't switch schools and toss out everything that just happened to help him take another next step. What it's about now is finding out what the kid is good at, steering him in that direction and surrounding him with the support that allows him to succeed in that field.

If the right trades weren't available, you don't make them.

Dude, you often make very good points, but this doesn't make any sense. I wasn't asking GMTM to make huge sweeping changes at the deadline, but I was asking him to start moving out the dead weight on this team. At this point there was zero point in keeping any of our UFA's except maybe Nilsson, who we should consider re-signing. None are part of the future, and keeping them might help us win a few extra games this season, but so what. We aren't going to the playoffs regardless. I'd rather have 5th rd picks, or even a bag of pucks and open up roster slots for younger players. I'd rather see Baptiste then Gionta, Nelson, Bodie and Falk vs Kulikov and Franson.

 

Frankly the headmaster (gmtm), teachers (DD) and the school leaders (Gorges, Gionta, and even ROR) have failed this team this year. I'm sorry but what C student was I pulling out of school? I've been very clear that I'd trade Kane for a top 4 D this off-season in the right deal, if that is who you are refering to. I also understand the reasons not to trade him, but that has nothing to do with my complaints about this failed deadline.

[eman]

By not relying on insane stretch passes out of the zone that lead to turnovers and odd man rushes. By playing an aggressive system that puts pressure on the other team, and not on the worst part of our team our defense; using our strengths to protect our weaknesses instead of the other way around, which he does

And by not sitting on 2 goal leads when your attack got you to that point. You keep pressing to put the dagger in, especially knowing your D is not that strong.

[darksabre]

I agree that it's far too soon to come to any conclusions on GMTM.  The fans that applauded the terrible decision to tank need to stop kidding themselves that it would be quick and painless to pop back up from the basement to contender level.  They were historically bad for the 2 full years ending the season before last (and pretty bad the 2 seasons before that).  There was reason to hope for better this year, but the odds were against it.

 

HOWEVER -- I am gong to need something real to make me think that there is reason to hope for a better outcome next year.  It can't just be maturity of Eichel, Reino, Risto, McCabe and Lehner plus a couple of Kulikov-level additions.

 

I think I need a new coach, and I need to feel confident that this one is 100% GMTM's call. 

 

And if they're going to make that change, it needs to be pretty soon after the season ends, so they can have their choice of whoever's available, and so the new coach can install his system in preseason and hit the ground running.

 

Otherwise, it's hard to avoid the cold premonition that they will come out to another crappy start, DDB will get canned by New Year's and it will be too late to salvage the season -- which will bring us to a full 8 years with no playoffs.

This is exactly the same place I'm at. 

[dudacek]

So we just settle for mediocrity?  Got it.  Other teams historically and currently can improve quicker, but I guess that's just too much for Buffalo.  Most can see that something is not right here and I'm not interested in staying the course on this version of the Sabres, but that indeed seems to be the plan.

 

Buffalo improved 27 points last year. Teams that make those kind of jumps historically slip a bit the next year.

But don't let the facts get in the way of you wanting thwomp something.

 

It bothers me that this team doesn't seem to play as well as its pieces, but I like a lot of those pieces.

I think blowing things up and making panicky trades is a more surefire path to mediocrity than sticking with the plan and improving it when and where you can.

Dude, you often make very good points, but this doesn't make any sense. I wasn't asking GMTM to make huge sweeping changes at the deadline, but I was asking him to start moving out the dead weight on this team. At this point there was zero point in keeping any of our UFA's except maybe Nilsson, who we should consider re-signing. None are part of the future, and keeping them might help us win a few extra games this season, but so what. We aren't going to the playoffs regardless. I'd rather have 5th rd picks, or even a bag of pucks and open up roster slots for younger players. I'd rather see Baptiste then Gionta, Nelson, Bodie and Falk vs Kulikov and Franson.

 

Frankly the headmaster (gmtm), teachers (DD) and the school leaders (Gorges, Gionta, and even ROR) have failed this team this year. I'm sorry but what C student was I pulling out of school? I've been very clear that I'd trade Kane for a top 4 D this off-season in the right deal, if that is who you are refering to. I also understand the reasons not to trade him, but that has nothing to do with my complaints about this failed deadline.

 

I think what we discovered was that nobody wanted the dead weight. Murray didn't want to move them for pucks and I don't blame him.

I agree that it's time to play the kids. We can do that whether the dead weight is here or not.

 

 

This is exactly the same place I'm at. 

 

Me too.

[Thwomp!]

Buffalo improved 27 points last year. Teams that make those kind of jumps historically slip a bit the next year.

But don't let the facts get in the way of you wanting thwomp something.

 

It bothers me that this team doesn't seem to play as well as its pieces, but I like a lot of those pieces.

I think blowing things up and making panicky trades is a more surefire path to mediocrity than sticking with the plan and improving it when and where you can.

 

Yep, jettisoning any dead weight, which this team has an abundance of = panicky trades.

 

The team's trajectory and performance this year must be maintained at all costs!

 

As to the bolded, the trade deadline is one way to shake things up.  Doing nothing, when you're in the Sabres current position, is just inexplicable to me.

[North Buffalo]

Buffalo improved 27 points last year. Teams that make those kind of jumps historically slip a bit the next year.

But don't let the facts get in the way of you wanting thwomp something.

 

It bothers me that this team doesn't seem to play as well as its pieces, but I like a lot of those pieces.

I think blowing things up and making panicky trades is a more surefire path to mediocrity than sticking with the plan and improving it when and where you can.

Easy, no one says blow things up other maybe DD, but dead weight Gorges and Molson gotta go, put them on waivers whatever. So far nothing.

[GASabresIUFAN]

To make things worse, I have a sinking suspicion that he didn't trade Kulikov and Franson because he wants to re-sign them. After all he is such a shrewd judge of talent.

[TheAud]

Easy, no one says blow things up other maybe DD, but dead weight Gorges and Molson gotta go, put them on waivers whatever. So far nothing.

Funny story...my wife is Taiwanese and just learning the game after being in the US for 3 1/2 years now. We were walking last night and I was telling her about the expansion draft as she'd heard about the new team in LV and was asking me about that. I mentioned it was my hope that LV takes Moulson or Gorges off the Sabres hands. She said to me, "Now Moulson and Gorges, those are the slow guys, right?"

My God I love that woman. 

[dudacek]

Yep, jettisoning any dead weight, which this team has an abundance of = panicky trades.

 

The team's trajectory and performance this year must be maintained at all costs!

 

As to the bolded, the trade deadline is one way to shake things up.  Doing nothing, when you're in the Sabres current position, is just inexplicable to me.

 

 

Easy, no one says blow things up other maybe DD, but dead weight Gorges and Molson gotta go, put them on waivers whatever. So far nothing.

 

What is it about the lack of demand for our dead weight doesn't make sense?

Unless someone takes them off our hands, they remain ours.

 

He didn't get offers that he thought were fair value.

Are you saying he should have made those trades anyway?

Edited March 1, 2017 by dudacek