Players not listening to Dan?

[jsb]

I am incredibly sick of people trying to turn this into an either-or issue. Murray could have assembled a flawed/incomplete roster AND Bylsma can be under, or inappropriately, utilizing what he has been given. Both of these things can be true. Not a single person on this board has asserted they'd be a Cup contender and 110 point team with a different coach. 

It also could be true that he's a prima donna butt wipe who the veterans on the team are tired of his antics. Maybe Hamilton is right about him. If this is true about him do you really think he has any chance of getting the A must less the C with this team. Maybe he needs to grow up. Talent alone doesn't necessarily win, this isn't EA Sports where you can just throw everything in a bottle and shake it up and throw it out there. The guys have to mesh and feel like they're all in it together. That's why some teams overachieve and others stagnate. 

 

Another thing, would you and others feel the same if who he was referring to wasn't Jack but was Kane or Gorges or Foligno or Ennis. I highly doubt it. Sometimes you have to get off his oscar mayer and actually think. If you're on a job and the Manager tells you to do something and a 19-20 year old tells you to stick it, he's not doing that he's going to do what he wants to do. Do you really think he's still working there tomorrow???

[dudacek]

 

It also could be true that he's a prima donna butt wipe who the veterans on the team are tired of his antics. Maybe Hamilton is right about him. If this is true about him do you really think he has any chance of getting the A must less the C with this team. Maybe he needs to grow up. Talent alone doesn't necessarily win, this isn't EA Sports where you can just throw everything in a bottle and shake it up and throw it out there. The guys have to mesh and feel like they're all in it together. That's why some teams overachieve and others stagnate. 

 

Another thing, would you and others feel the same if who he was referring to wasn't Jack but was Kane or Gorges or Foligno or Ennis. I highly doubt it. Sometimes you have to get off his oscar mayer and actually think. If you're on a job and the Manager tells you to do something and a 19-20 year old tells you to stick it, he's not doing that he's going to do what he wants to do. Do you really think he's still working there tomorrow???

And this is what makes it harder to fire Dan because you now have to be concerned with the message you send.

[Weave]

 

His other quote about "I'm going to keep doing the same things" underscores a prior criticism I have made of him.  He has a certain confidence, bordering on ignorance, about what he can do in the NHL.  He still tries to put pucks in places that are high risk.  If it works 1 of 5 times he thinks it's worth it. If it causes a turn over and it ends up in his net 1 of 5 times he thinks its a breakeven so he might as well keep trying it.

 

He's going to need to learn some humility.  He just isn't that good.

 

 

Not ignorance.  Arrogance.  And you are right he's not that good.  I don't care if nobody agrees with the coach, you aren't good enough or smart enough to decide for yourself how you are going to play.  Humility is the right word for what he needs.

Roster wise? The Leafs, Kings, Bruins...there are plenty of teams with worse rosters than ours who's coaches have put them in a position to win

 

I'm not convinced our roster is much better.  The results aren't there to show it.

[Huckleberry]

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Michael-Pachla/Friggen-bye-week-Burning-loss-Plus-Jack-Eichel-isnt-ready-to-lead/209/82952

 

Thought this was a pretty good written blog about this team.

[WildCard]

It also could be true that he's a prima donna butt wipe who the veterans on the team are tired of his antics. Maybe Hamilton is right about him. If this is true about him do you really think he has any chance of getting the A must less the C with this team. Maybe he needs to grow up. Talent alone doesn't necessarily win, this isn't EA Sports where you can just throw everything in a bottle and shake it up and throw it out there. The guys have to mesh and feel like they're all in it together. That's why some teams overachieve and others stagnate. 

 

Another thing, would you and others feel the same if who he was referring to wasn't Jack but was Kane or Gorges or Foligno or Ennis. I highly doubt it. Sometimes you have to get off his oscar mayer and actually think. If you're on a job and the Manager tells you to do something and a 19-20 year old tells you to stick it, he's not doing that he's going to do what he wants to do. Do you really think he's still working there tomorrow???

Antics? Really? We've seen them fight for each other, countless behind the scenes videos with each other having fun, they routinely all hang out, and Jack's lived with two of them for FFS. Pretty sure they mesh together

 

Yeah, I wouldn't care who he was referring to. I think Bylsma is a moron. 

 

Yes, because being a player in the NHL is so similar to being a 19 year old kid at their first job with no other options. 

 

And this is what makes it harder to fire Dan because you now have to be concerned with the message you send.

Agreed. I say fire him and don't even show up to the presser, just hang stats on a white board and call it a day.

 

Not ignorance.  Arrogance.  And you are right he's not that good.  I don't care if nobody agrees with the coach, you aren't good enough or smart enough to decide for yourself how you are going to play.  Humility is the right word for what he needs.

 

I'm not convinced our roster is much better.  The results aren't there to show it.

But he's right, this is what's driving me insane.  He is good enough and smart enough to realize what most on here and everyone in Pittsburgh is saying. If you don't believe he's good enough, I'm honestly tired of trying to convince people. The numbers have been dug up, the arguments are made, and for some reason people really wanna pin this on him and the players. Byslma is a terrible, terrible head coach. 

 

I can't freaking wait to fire this and bring in a real coach so this can be set to bed. 

The persistence of people here to look for something to blame that isn't Bylsma is mind boggling. We look this team up and down, and maybe we can find some roster flaws, but we KNOW that Bylsma has been a bad coach. We have evidence of this! At it would appear that he still is a bad coach. We have corroborating evidence!

 

Yet here we sit, looking everywhere except the most obvious place.

 

If it looks like sh*t, and it smells like sh*t, well...

I'm losing my mind with it

[WildCard]

The Bruins don't have a coach. All three have better rosters.

The Kings have 3 D that are better anyone we have other then Risto and Muzzin and Doughty are arguably better the he is. They also have a mature and talented forward group that knows how to win. Carter and Kopitar are also better then what we have.

The Bruins feature a vezina type goalie (Rask) and plus Marchand and Bergeron who again better then what we have. They are also deeper on the blueline and like LA have a mature experienced roster that knows how to win.

Last the Leafs, this is closer, but they young guys are also better then ours. They feature Matthews, Marner and Nylander to just our Jack and Sam. JVR is just as good a Okposo and with Bozak and Kadri they are deeper down the middle. They are also deeper at forward overall. With 4 40 pts scorers and 9 guys over 20 pts to our 7 guys over 20 pts and Zero 40 pt players. They have also managed to stay healthy on D and Andersen is just as good if not better then Lehner.

 

All three are also barely in a playoff position and could easily miss the playoffs. Good try!

 

As to our roster we have 6 players maybe 7 of a competitive team.

We have - 2 potential stars, Jack and Sam in only their 2nd NHL seasons at 20 & 21 years old.

We have - 2 maybe 3 other 2nd line forwards in ROR, Okposo and Kane when he is on his game.

We have 2 young D (McCabe and Risto) only 1 is a top pairing guy.

 

That's it.

The Bruins had a coach. A top 5 coach

 

The Kings with a mature and talented forward group? They have Kopitar (having a miserable year), Carter, and Toffoli (who's been hurt a ton this year), that's it. Oh and Pearson. They're stuck with Gaborik and Brown, not to mention the fact they've been playing a backup goalie this entire year. That roster is terrible, and is saved by Doughty and Suter. I also take McCabe over McNabb any day.

 

So the Bruins have what? 3 players? I will give them more than that. They have Rask, Marchand, Bergeron, Krejci, and Pastrnak. A good roster, with probably a better blue line too. I think ours is still comparable, and would argue with Julien we put up way better numbers than that group

 

Same thing with the Leafs. Take a look at those players careers outside of Babcock. They're not good. He gets there and what? They all the sudden start racking up points, and a once worthless JVR and Kadri resurrect careers and become Selke candidates. Anderson is a good goalie, he also has the benefit of not playing back to backs and getting shelled with 40 shots a night. ROR - Jack - Reinhart - Girgs / Larsson. I will take our center group over theirs as it currently stands. And their blue line is just a big of mess. If you want to say they're similar rosters, or they Leafs are even a little better constructed, I will disagree and hope you can at least agree that they're not 30 goals better. I don't even want to know how badly their possession stats blow us out of the water. But again, that's Babcock. And it's evident when viewing what he did in Detroit for a decade and comparing the before and afters of those Leafs players prior to his arrival 

Edited February 14, 2017 by WildCard

[Weave]

 

But he's right, this is what's driving me insane.  He is good enough and smart enough to realize what most on here and everyone in Pittsburgh is saying. If you don't believe he's good enough, I'm honestly tired of trying to convince people. The numbers have been dug up, the arguments are made, and for some reason people really wanna pin this on him and the players. Byslma is a terrible, terrible head coach. 

 

I'm not pinning the team results on him.  I am saying his reactions is not only counter productive, it hurts his development.  And as a result it hurts the team. 

 

And no, he's not good enough to get to decide what systems he plays on the ice.  he's not Ovie.  He's not Crosby.  He's not even Tavares yet.

[WildCard]

I'm not pinning the team results on him.  I am saying his reactions is not only counter productive, it hurts his development.  And as a result it hurts the team. 

 

And no, he's not good enough to get to decide what systems he plays on the ice.  he's not Ovie.  He's not Crosby.  He's not even Tavares yet.

I disagree. If he's being told to do poor playing habits, then avoiding that helps his development

 

Why does his perceived skill level have anything to do with not wanting to play in a poor system? It could have been Foligno saying it for all I care

[SwampD]

I'm not pinning the team results on him.  I am saying his reactions is not only counter productive, it hurts his development.  And as a result it hurts the team. 

 

And no, he's not good enough to get to decide what systems he plays on the ice.  he's not Ovie.  He's not Crosby.  He's not even Tavares yet.

He's not even Mathews.

[WildCard]

He's not even Mathews.

Easily will be once he gets a head coach

[Weave]

I disagree. If he's being told to do poor playing habits, then avoiding that helps his development

 

Why does his perceived skill level have anything to do with not wanting to play in a poor system? It could have been Foligno saying it for all I care

 

He's not being told to have poor playing habits.  He *might* (and we don't even know this) be being told to play a style that doesn't compliment him well.  Well, , what do you think is going to happen when he sees playoff hockey.  You better learn to adapt you entitled little snowflake.

He's not even Mathews.

 

Ed Zachary.

[WildCard]

He's not being told to have poor playing habits.  He *might* (and we don't even know this) be being told to play a style that doesn't compliment him well.  Well, ######, what do you think is going to happen when he sees playoff hockey.  You better learn to adapt you entitled little snowflake.

So, don't do what you're good at? Don't do what made you the #2 overall pick and first freshman Hobey Baker winner since Paul Kariya? 

 

Yes, adapt. But don't change what you're good at. Crosby still plays like Crosby in the playoffs. If he didn't, the other team would just be thrilled because you're doing exactly what they want

[Weave]

So, don't do what you're good at? Don't do what made you the #2 overall pick and first freshman Hobey Baker winner since Paul Kariya? 

 

Yes, adapt. But don't change what you're good at. Crosby still plays like Crosby in the playoffs. If he didn't, the other team would just be thrilled because you're doing exactly what they want

 

Yep.  Crosby learned to become real good at mucking it up when he has to.  ;)

[GASabresIUFAN]

And I'm saying there isn't enough talent on this roster, especially on D to make his or any other system work consistently.[/ quote]

 

The track record of the players say otherwise.

 

Ryan O'Reilly plays for the Canadian national team.

Ristolainen is among the best under-25 defencemen in the world.

Okposo is one of the highest-scoring wingers in the NHL over the past four years.

Eichel and Reinhart are second overall picks and among the league's more talented young players.

Kane is one of the league's better power wingers.

Kulikov and Bogosian are in their prime and were solid top-four defencemen before they came to Buffalo.

 

There is more talent in that core than you think.

There is certainly more talent than on teams like the Canucks.

 

You are way over estimating the talent on this roster and where it is in development. Are Eichel and Sam in the top 20 in scoring in the the NHL? Top 50? Are any Sabres? No! Toronto has 4 in the top 50. Our top 4 are all very good players, but our two potential elite forwards aren't even close yet to being elite players. Kane is having a nice run, but his 8 year career shows him as a 65 game 40 pt player. Kulikov and Bogo are in their prime, but neither is a top 4 on a good hockey team. Kulikov was shipped out of Fla once they became a decent team because of his mediocre possession numbers and poor hockey IQ despite a good playoffs last year. Bogo had a great 2nd year in the NHL, and other then his 2nd half last year, his career has been mostly on a down trend. His hockey IQ is also lacking and his scoring has fallen off even more. These two were supposed to be the guys to play physically, move the puck and add some offense and neither guy has produced or stayed healthy. They have played 60 games between them with 2g 5a total -22. Those numbers don't make you a top 4, but put you in the AHL.

 

The health issue is key, especially when talking about Kane, Bogo and Kulikov. We have to stop looking at a roster on paper and it's potential and look at what is actually on the ice.

The Sabre

[WildCard]

ame="dudacek" post="915036" timestamp="1487024128"]

 

You are way over estimating the talent on this roster and where it is in development. Are Eichel and Sam in the top 20 in scoring in the the NHL? Top 50? Are any Sabres? No! Toronto has 4 in the top 50. Our top 4 are all very good players, but our two potential elite forwards aren't even close yet to being elite players. Kane is having a nice run, but his 8 year career shows him as a 65 game 40 pt player. Kulikov and Bogo are in their prime, but neither is a top 4 on a good hockey team. Kulikov was shipped out of Fla once they became a decent team because of his mediocre possession numbers and poor hockey IQ despite a good playoffs last year. Bogo had a great 2nd year in the NHL, and other then his 2nd half last year, his career has been mostly on a down trend. His hockey IQ is also lacking and his scoring has fallen off even more. These two were supposed to be the guys to play physically, move the puck and add some offense and neither guy has produced or stayed healthy. They have played 60 games between them with 2g 5a total -22. Those numbers don't make you a top 4, but put you in the AHL.

 

The health issue is key, especially when talking about Kane, Bogo and Kulikov. We have to stop looking at a roster on paper and it's potential and look at what is actually on the ice.

The Sabre

Comparing the player's points when the argument is all about if the coach is limiting the players doesn't really add up to me

 

Also, your first paragraph tells us how bad Kulikov and Bogosian are. Your last one tells us that losing those bad players to health issues is the key. Which is it? 

[darksabre]

Can anyone here prove that Bylsma isn't a bad coach? It's like a handful of posters here have to do all the work to prove he's a bad coach, but those who disagree don't feel obligated to do squat.

 

Prove that Bylsma isn't the dumpster fire that a majority of analysis has shown him to be. I'm talking Flagg and TrueBlue level work here. I'm not going to read anything half-assed.

[pi2000]

Reasons why Dan Bylsma is not a bad coach.

 

1 - He won a Cup.

 

2 - ????

 

3 - ????

 

4 - ????

[Randall Flagg]

I actually think Jack gets a huge leash and is allowed to do whatever he wants. He's never had minutes slashed outside of one power play benching in one game, and has strayed into "I'm doing everything myself territory" to the point where it hurts the team plenty of times, and Dan hasn't yelled at him publicly/benched him to make up for it. This was a huge reason why I was happy with the hire, but now I'm thinking that Eichel doesn't have the maturity that Auston/Connor/Sid do and probably needs someone that can reign him in, someone that he will listen to. I love his fire and creativity, but he needs more molding than I thought coming into his career. And that's just fine, it happens.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Randall Flagg

[Weave]

Can anyone here prove that Bylsma isn't a bad coach? It's like a handful of posters here have to do all the work to prove he's a bad coach, but those who disagree don't feel obligated to do squat.

 

Prove that Bylsma isn't the dumpster fire that a majority of analysis has shown him to be. I'm talking Flagg and TrueBlue level work here. I'm not going to read anything half-assed.

 

You know better than to ask someone to prove a negative.

 

I've got no skin in the Bylsma game.  I'm just commenting on a perceived attitude that I'd rather our fledgling star didn't showcase.

[Randall Flagg]

Reasons why Dan Bylsma is not a bad coach.

 

1 - He won a Cup.

 

2 - ????

 

3 - ????

 

4 - ????

Reasons why he is a bad coach, tho

 

1 - Keeping Matt Moulson chained up on the 4th line

 

2 - Having a high opinion of Auston Matthews

 

3 - Skepticism of plus/minus 

 

:) 

[Mustache of God]

You mean you don't like him as a coach, I assume. Not liking someone as a person is a different thing.

I don't like him as a person (this judgement only coming from the interviews I've listened to which isn't much but all I have to go on) and I think his coaching style is an extension of his persona: tame, boring, defensive, and just has a loser mentality to it.

[pi2000]

Reasons why he is a bad coach, tho

 

1 - Keeping Matt Moulson chained up on the 4th line

 

2 - Having a high opinion of Auston Matthews

 

3 - Skepticism of plus/minus 

 

:)

 

 

[darksabre]

You know better than to ask someone to prove a negative.

 

I'm not asking to prove a negative. Convince me Bylsma is good. Prove the affirmative position.

[Jsixspd]

What exactly is wrong with his personality?

At least 9 out of 10 regulars at this forum would, if they played for the Sabres, think Dreary Dan sucks as a coach and there would be a lot of friction.  

 

Who can fault Eichel for thinking the same? 

[Weave]

I'm not asking to prove a negative. Convince me Bylsma is good. Prove the affirmative position.

 

I don't know if he is good or bad.  I do know that the player interviews coming out today are all saying the same thing, when they are all playing the same way, playing the way Bylsma wants them to play, we see periods like the 1st period against Toronto, and when they get away from doing that we see games like Vancouver.

 

If speedy, small, built for speed and skill Brian Gionta can plumb and be successful here there is no reason the stars on this team can't.

 

http://www.buffalohockeybeat.com/sabres-know-style-must-showcase/

 

 

“We want to be a fast-paced, in-your-face kind of team, and that’s getting into that offensive zone and being able to grind teams and tire them out,” Gionta said. “It may not happen in the first period, but by the end of the second, the third, that’s when you start to take over.”

 

Gorges said: “Until we decide as a group we’re going to play a certain way … and we’re all going to play the same way, that’s when we’ll have continued success.

 

 

I'm starting to suspect Bylma's real fault has more to do with an inability to convey and inspire, not his chosen X's and O's.