Players not listening to Dan?

[darksabre]

Pretty good discussion of systems, etc. on WGR this morning - as part of the weekly interview with Bylsma. I will post a link later if I can.

I'm sure Bylsma said all sorts of things that sound good but don't mean anything.

[Randall Flagg]

You know the smart guy glasses are what clinched it. 

I've taken an Eichel attitude about the whole thing - I'm tired of saying the same things, and everyone is tired of reading them, and nothing I say or do here is going to change the fact that either Bylsma is fired soon or he isn't. I'm going to dial back because I'm sure that being so fervently anti-bylsma has made me too partisan and unable to see things objectively anyway. Just gonna enjoy the ride and hope he fixes this team so that we win, though not expecting to see that, and I'm pretty confident that one way or another we'll see the team break out sooner or later. 

[pi2000]

You know the smart guy glasses are what clinched it.

 

I've taken an Eichel attitude about the whole thing - I'm tired of saying the same things, and everyone is tired of reading them, and nothing I say or do here is going to change the fact that either Bylsma is fired soon or he isn't. I'm going to dial back because I'm sure that being so fervently anti-bylsma has made me too partisan and unable to see things objectively anyway. Just gonna enjoy the ride and hope he fixes this team so that we win, though not expecting to see that, and I'm pretty confident that one way or another we'll see the team break out sooner or later.

Wait. You're not a Bylsma supporter? Please explain!

[WildCard]

You know the smart guy glasses are what clinched it. 

 

I've taken an Eichel attitude about the whole thing - I'm tired of saying the same things, and everyone is tired of reading them, and nothing I say or do here is going to change the fact that either Bylsma is fired soon or he isn't. I'm going to dial back because I'm sure that being so fervently anti-bylsma has made me too partisan and unable to see things objectively anyway. Just gonna enjoy the ride and hope he fixes this team so that we win, though not expecting to see that, and I'm pretty confident that one way or another we'll see the team break out sooner or later. 

Are you new here?  :nana:

[LTS]

Not ignorance.  Arrogance.  And you are right he's not that good.  I don't care if nobody agrees with the coach, you aren't good enough or smart enough to decide for yourself how you are going to play.  Humility is the right word for what he needs.

 

I'm not convinced our roster is much better.  The results aren't there to show it.

 

Yep.. was typing fast.  I meant arrogance, I've said it before but got it wrong that time.  The easiest way to prove the point to a primadonna?  Put him out there, 1 on 5 and see if he can dominate the game.

 

I disagree. If he's being told to do poor playing habits, then avoiding that helps his development

 

Why does his perceived skill level have anything to do with not wanting to play in a poor system? It could have been Foligno saying it for all I care

 

What development are speaking about?  Eichel will develop core hockey skills for as long as he plays but how they are applied is a determination of the game plan.  It's like saying a wide receiver doesn't know how to run a post route because the coach only calls receiving routes that are 15 yards or less.  You can hate the system, but you have to do what the other guys on the ice are expecting you to do or you fail.

 

His quote says they wan to grind out teams in the offensive zone, so that later in the game they're tired and we're not. Sure, those 3 players are good at that. But that's not who we're building our team around. Kane could easily be gone within a year and Gionta is a nearly 40 year old UFA. 

 

I think the plan is to play more like the Ducks.  They are widely regarded for playing a "heavy" game in the offensive zone.  It might not be that they are pounding the hell out of the other team but they want to play a heavy game.  They aren't able to execute that yet.  I consider O'Reilly a guy who plays a heavy game.  You can't get sloppy with anything or he will take the puck and many times he's hounding a player so much he'll take it anyway. He never lays out big hits but playing against him is like wearing an O'Reilly coat.

 

Agreed, that it is damning of Byslma's lack of control, but I still believe a system matters. If every system was that similar, then why is there a large disparity between teams with similar rosters? Why are the players refusing to follow it? Why do some coaches continue to win and win with different rosters? Why do some teams match up better against others?

 

Because players are not the same?  They can be similar but not the same.  Chemistry matters too.  Leadership matters.  if the coach can't inspire then it won't matter what system is being called either.  I think the answers to your questions lie in the intangibles arena and venture into a realm of conversation that isn't easily answered by number or analysis.

[TrueBlueGED]

You know the smart guy glasses are what clinched it.

 

I've taken an Eichel attitude about the whole thing - I'm tired of saying the same things, and everyone is tired of reading them, and nothing I say or do here is going to change the fact that either Bylsma is fired soon or he isn't. I'm going to dial back because I'm sure that being so fervently anti-bylsma has made me too partisan and unable to see things objectively anyway. Just gonna enjoy the ride and hope he fixes this team so that we win, though not expecting to see that, and I'm pretty confident that one way or another we'll see the team break out sooner or later.

Nobody likes a quitter :p

[Randall Flagg]

Nobody likes a quitter :P

But Flagg's family likes a sane Flagg :lol:

[LGR4GM]

I believe that Lehner's comments were about Jack Eichel. I theorized approximately a month ago that Jack Eichel had quit on the coach.  I firmly believe that to some extent that is the case today. His play behind the net was clearly not a Bylsma system play. Jack gambled and lost there. However the situation requires further scrutiny.  

 

IMPO there are two sides to this. The first revolves around Eichel. Jack Eichel hates losing. That was evident in his draft year and has become more apparent as time has gone on. Now I am not sure he knows how to win in the NHL yet. I think there are some glaring maturity issues in his game. It is almost as if 2 years ago when I spoke about his disinterested floating, I was not making things up. That said he clearly knows that doing X will not help him win. For instance when you play in a defensive shell for an entire game and your priority is simply "limiting opposing teams opportunities", you are in essence not playing to win but playing to hopefully not lose. This is a loser mentality, well if we do this one thing we might win but I know we won't get blown out of the water. "Better safe than sorry" comes to mind.

 

Jack Eichel however hates losing, it isn't something he does gracefully or something he has done much of. I think in his mind, the coaches system is not working and he sees proof of that when they dump the system and play creative flowing hockey. In Toronto during period one we saw this. Jack has then decided that the best way to win, is to go rogue and play how he has won in the past. Sometimes we have seen this work, other times it has failed. Dump and chase to Jack Eichel is not a sound strategy because it goes against the sound hockey principles he grew up with.

 

The other side to this would be Bylsma's. Dan Bylsma strikes me as a very intelligent person in terms of the game of hockey. He might be so smart he is dumb but that isn't the point here. Bylsma could be looking at his teams defense and considering their overall weakness a major issue. As such he constructed a system around providing the defense with the most support at the sake of offense. This means everyone collapses down below the faceoff dots, typically 1 forechecker, and letting other teams cycle the puck around the perimeter to protect the high % areas. 

 

This has a lead to system that is very rigid. Players are expected to be in certain places on the ice to protect the defensive zone. The offensive thing I have noticed is that one winger will bolt to the opposing blue line (typically the one on the opposite side of the ice from the puck, pucks on the left side the right winger goes). This creates the ability for the center or opposite winger to hit that far winger with a pass, typically for a deflection into the zone. Then on offense the team goes to work to retrieve the puck and control the zone. This leads back to several comments from coaches and players about not digging pucks out after dump ins and losing the 50/50 battles for pucks down low. So the system is really predicated on limiting high opportunity chances and then puck retrieval in the offensive zone with long cross ice or straight up passes to a breaking forward to negate icings. 

 

Which brings us back to players quitting on Bylsma. Jack's game will never fit Bylsma's style. Jack is free flowing and offensive minded, Bylsma is the opposite. I think this has led to Eichel quitting on the system of dump and chase and long stretch passes. He does not see a winning strategy and thus has moved on to something that has created positive results for him in the past. I think Sam Reinhart is actually in a gray area of quitting and still running the system because his natural game fits better.

 

If Jack Eichel has quit on Bylsma we have to ask ourselves a series of difficult questions. Is Eichel arrogant? Yes, I think he is arrogant because he is 20 and because he is that good.Does Bylsma's system produce winning results in today's NHL? Forget about what he did in Pittsburgh because that's in the past. Today in Buffalo his system has shown several flaws which he seems to refuse to address. Chief among them is the defensive shell the team assumes, a shell that we see so often (winning or losing) that it can't possibly be anything other then coached. Finally, if Jack Eichel has had enough and no longer believes in the coach, is that more a reflection on him or Bylsma? I don't have a good answer because I don't know the inner workings of the team. My gut says it is a problem with Bylsma because my eyes have seen what happens when this team lets go of the system and just plays. I think the best defense for them is a good offense and I think they have a good offense. I am glad I do not have GMTM's job because if there is a discord between Eichel and the coach, it isn't going to improve. I also do not think that Eichel is disliked in that room, every video the Sabres post shows otherwise. 

 

Final thought. Robin Lehner needs to shut it. This isn't something you toss out to the media. You keep this in house because all he's done by tossing this out is increased pressure on everyone involved. In house you can address things and deal with them. Once Pandora's box is opened, there isn't a way back. Some people react well to public shaming, IMPO athletes do not. 

 

In closing this will be my last post for an undetermined length of time. I have strong opinions about current ongoing events within the United States. It has been indicated to me that this is not a place for such discussions.  I have voiced my disagreement with this policy and how it has been enforced for even minor infractions. I have addressed this directly with the moderators and understand fully their position. I will not agree with them on this, thus instead of a long rant ending in my banning, I will be taking time away. Because I do believe we are now living in a very dangerous time for all Americans, I will leave you with this... 

 

Edited February 14, 2017 by LGR4GM

[Scottysabres]

Eeegads, politics in a hockey setting? Blah.

 

Hockey is hockey, and I love hockey.......

[LTS]

Regardless of your political stance, it is beneficial to have the type of hockey commentary you just submitted.  If you feel so strongly about the current political situation of the country that you must proselytize to us in the realm of hockey I feel that this is both a boon for you and a bust for us.

 

It's good to have a strong opinion and have an interest in what is going on.  It's unfortunate that it consumes you to the point that it would bleed into the hockey forum where the moderators have decided that such conversations would detract from the primary purpose of the community.

 

However, if this passion for speaking your mind allows you to take action and drive results that you see fitting to your position then all the best of luck to you.

 

What's good for you may not always be what fits in every situation, but it doesn't make it wrong.  Best of luck and if you feel it in your bones to drop in and provide the type of hockey post you just did we'll all be better for it.

 

Onto the Dan situation... regardless of how you feel about Dan Bylsma I think it is clear that there are a group of established veterans who do not appreciate Eichel's go it alone strategy.  Reinhart is probably in a tough position because of them being roommates, linemates, etc. However, I don't think Lehner was saying anything that others didn't already feel.  His public pronouncement was probably already discussed by the groups of players on if, and or when, it would be appropriate.  Whether they thought the other night was the right time it was clear Lehner was done with it.

 

Jack Eichel needs to learn how to play a team hockey game and buy into the system because it might be possible for him to win in those situations too. If there is a strong contingent of the skilled players who would prefer Bylsma not be around I am sure they've expressed their opinions to Pegula and Murray.  If they don't feel that way then Eichel may be in for a short ride in Buffalo if he doesn't want to change.

[That Aud Smell]

I liked the hockey takes.

[SwampD]

Still trying to fugure out how to convince myself that it's the system's fault (and thusly that DD is an idiot dumbass worst caoch ever), while seeing players getting called out for not playing the system leading to a loss. Have we ever seen the system? If so, was it when we were hemmed in to our own zone, or was it when we were controlling play?

[Radar]

Man, am I the only one that's sick of this "system" bs. What exactly are we freakin talking about? It's freakin hockey!!!!!

[SwampD]

Man, am I the only one that's sick of this "system" bs. What exactly are we freakin talking about? It's freakin hockey!!!!!

"Drink!"

Edited February 14, 2017 by SwampD

[Weave]

LOL

[Taro T]

Interestingly, the WSJ had an article titled "Why Every NHL Team Should Fire Its Coach" in today's print edition. (Pg A14 by Alex Raskin)

 

Team winning percentage increases 4.1% & 40.7% of teams making in-season changes historically make the playoffs.

 

Article written before today's events. It stated Bovada has Ruff as most likely to get canned (7/4 odds) w/ Cooper & Maurice next @ 7/2.

[WildCard]

I'll take Cooper or Ruff in a heartbeat. I doubt Stevie Y is that prone to panic however

[Jacque Richard]

I'll take Cooper or Ruff in a heartbeat. I doubt Stevie Y is that prone to panic however

No ruff holy cow move on

[WildCard]

No ruff holy cow move on

He's better than Dan

[Jacque Richard]

He's better than Dan

Cup winner versus zero cup winner. Lindy had his run here. Bring back the the whole group rigier and Quinn

[WildCard]

Cup winner versus zero cup winner. Lindy had his run here. Bring back the the whole group rigier and Quinn

Well, I think Lindy should have a Cup, but that's an old debate. I bet he could have gotten one with that Pens roster

 

Just realized, Dan Byslma is the Jeff Fisher of hockey. 

Edited February 15, 2017 by WildCard

[eman]

This haunts me at night. My only solace is that Babcock was clearly his first choice. I wonder, were there any other coaching candidates available at the time? There is Cooper, Laviloette, Julien, and Trotz. Granted most will likely return, but as far as UFA's go this year, the talent is clearly there for coaches

Articles on why Bylsma sucks

 

 

http://thehockeywriters.com/heat-being-turned-up-on-sabres-dan-bylsma/ 

 

 

 

http://thehockeywriters.com/dan-bylsma-great-coach-or-product-of-talented-team/

Wholly Wildcard, thanks for those articles. Now we know. It nails what we're seeing to a tee. No doubt in my mind whatsoever now. DD must go.

[JJFIVEOH]

No ruff holy cow move on

 

 

He's better than Dan

 

 

Cup winner versus zero cup winner. Lindy had his run here. Bring back the the whole group rigier and Quinn

 

Not counting Scotty Bowman, it's been 72 years since a coach has won a Cup with multiple teams.

 

Just sayin'........................ :angel:

[SwampD]

Not counting Scotty Bowman, it's been 72 years since a coach has won a Cup with multiple teams.

 

Just sayin'........................ :angel:

So you're sayin' we're due, right?

[GASabresIUFAN]

Someone mentioned that they wanted proof that DD is a good coach.  Besides DD being the youngest coach to win a cup, being the fastest to 250 wins and having the highest winning % of active coaches, the Sabres now have 7 come from behind 3rd period wins this season.  Tied for the NHL lead with Montreal and Pitt.

 

I read this as the kids, when the follow the system and play hard, have the talent to win.  Unfortunately as kids they don't always do as their told and sometimes think they know better.  This was on display as well in the 2nd period when Lehner got peppered with 14 straight shots.  If the Ottawa games wasn't a microcosm of this season I don't know what is.