How to Fix the D Both Short and Long-term?

[dudacek]

Gorges was acquired for a 2nd rounder to keep the battle level up on the ice, the spirits up in the room and help the young defencemen get better. On the ice he was here to take the bullets as the team tanked.

The room seems tight, Risto and McCabe look good.

He's done, but he did what he was brought here to do. I give the trade a C+

 

Bogosian was acquired mostly as a way to complete the Kane for Myers trade. But I think it's safe to say the expectation was that he would replace most of Myers ice time and anchor the second pair. We've seen that player for only 20 or 30 games. Bogosian for Myers gets a C-, Bogosian for expectations a D, Overall trade a B.

 

Franson was signed late in the summer at no cost in assets to a relatively cheap contract to play as a 5.

He absolutely sucked his first year, has played to expectations this year. C

 

Kulikov-plus for Pysyk was a bit of a roll of the dice given his UFA status. He was a legit top 4. Best case scenario he played that way and you kept him, if not you deal him at the deadline for a second. The bench door created an unforeseeable nightmare. The thought was that we wouldn't be able to protect Pysyk in expansion anyway. Kulikov has been terrible, he got nothing at the deadline and he is unlikely to be re-signed. Right now we would be protecting Pysyk. I'm giving this trade a C- because Asplund looks like he was worth moving up for, but Kulikov himself has been an F. I don't blame Murray for that.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Keep Franson for his shot, assuming Bogo and Kuli are both working thru injuries... hope they heal this am and trade them next deadline... Sign Kuli to a two year low ball before draft and use him in trade. Draft a stud (Valimaki) and sign a healthy free agent.

 

NB, We have the worst D group in the NHL.  They give up more shots against then any other team. We have 2 of the slowest D in the NHL in Franson and Gorges.  I have already shown that Franson's performance, the 3rd best of the Sabres D, is on the same level as Jordie Benn but for 3 times the price, yet Benn is both a better shot blocker and penalty killer (2 things we need).  Kulikov has literally been one of the worst D in the NHL this season that DD is finally considering benching him.  He has 2 pts in 38 games and after a -2 last night is now -17 for the season.  Our friend Bogosian isn't much ahead of Kulikov with 7 pts and a -14 in 38 games.  You also can't blame their awful performance of injuries.  If there are so hurt that they are ineffective when playing they should be on IR.  If they are healthy enough to play then they should contribute at a reasonable level and not be a liability each time they step onto the ice.

 

We have 4 terrible D in Kulikov, Bogosian, Franson and Gorges.  None should return at any price.  Sadly Bogo has 3 more years at $5.142 per season so he isn't going anywhere, but the other 3 can be gone at seasons end; Kulikov and Franson by not re-signing them and Gorges through an inexpensive buyout.  Why make the same mistakes and keep players that were major contributors to this mediocre season.  They aren't worth re-signing at any price.  

 

We have a golden opportunity to overhaul this group by adding more speed, better puck movers and hopefully a couple of better penalty killers. That starts with seeing if Borgen and Guhle are ready to contribute next season by getting them onto the NHL ice as soon as their college and Jr season's end.  (we need to sign Borgen as well).  We need Falk in the lineup to see if he is the no.6 D or no. 7 D next season.  Then in the off-season we need to find away to get one of the excess good young D away from Minn (Brodie), Ana (Vatanen, Theodore or Montour) or the NYI (DeHaan or Hickey), in addition to looking at good free agents even Shattenkirk.  

 

We also need to be budget conscious.   We spent almost 16.5 mill on the 4 terrible D.   DK,ZB, & JG in 124 g contributed 2g 10a, 12 pts -32 with a cost of over 13 million.  Fedun and Falk in 66 games have given us 14pts & +3 for 1.2 million total.  But after next season the cap becomes an issue for us when we need to re-sign Jack, Sam and Kane.  Cutting the 16.5 we spent on the gruesome foursome to 10 or less will go along away to help us afford the forwards,but that should still be plenty of money to get what we need, especially if a kid like Guhle steps up and earns a spot.

[North Buffalo]

NB, We have the worst D group in the NHL.  They give up more shots against then any other team. We have 2 of the slowest D in the NHL in Franson and Gorges.  I have already shown that Franson's performance, the 3rd best of the Sabres D, is on the same level as Jordie Benn but for 3 times the price, yet Benn is both a better shot blocker and penalty killer (2 things we need).  Kulikov has literally been one of the worst D in the NHL this season that DD is finally considering benching him.  He has 2 pts in 38 games and after a -2 last night is now -17 for the season.  Our friend Bogosian isn't much ahead of Kulikov with 7 pts and a -14 in 38 games.  You also can't blame their awful performance of injuries.  If there are so hurt that they are ineffective when playing they should be on IR.  If they are healthy enough to play then they should contribute at a reasonable level and not be a liability each time they step onto the ice.

 

We have 4 terrible D in Kulikov, Bogosian, Franson and Gorges.  None should return at any price.  Sadly Bogo has 3 more years at $5.142 per season so he isn't going anywhere, but the other 3 can be gone at seasons end; Kulikov and Franson by not re-signing them and Gorges through an inexpensive buyout.  Why make the same mistakes and keep players that were major contributors to this mediocre season.  They aren't worth re-signing at any price.  

 

We have a golden opportunity to overhaul this group by adding more speed, better puck movers and hopefully a couple of better penalty killers. That starts with seeing if Borgen and Guhle are ready to contribute next season by getting them onto the NHL ice as soon as their college and Jr season's end.  (we need to sign Borgen as well).  We need Falk in the lineup to see if he is the no.6 D or no. 7 D next season.  Then in the off-season we need to find away to get one of the excess good young D away from Minn (Brodie), Ana (Vatanen, Theodore or Montour) or the NYI (DeHaan or Hickey), in addition to looking at good free agents even Shattenkirk.  

 

We also need to be budget conscious.   We spent almost 16.5 mill on the 4 terrible D.   DK,ZB, & JG in 124 g contributed 2g 10a, 12 pts -32 with a cost of over 13 million.  Fedun and Falk in 66 games have given us 14pts & +3 for 1.2 million total.  But after next season the cap becomes an issue for us when we need to re-sign Jack, Sam and Kane.  Cutting the 16.5 we spent on the gruesome foursome to 10 or less will go along away to help us afford the forwards,but that should still be plenty of money to get what we need, especially if a kid like Guhle steps up and earns a spot.

So to me its only how best to get it done... and then Sabres are only looking for 1 D plus Ghule and draft a stud D to develop.

[Huckleberry]

Sign shattenkirk as UFA , dump Bogo , Gorges, franson.   Won't happen :p

[GASabresIUFAN]

Franson was signed late in the summer at no cost in assets to a relatively cheap contract to play as a 5.

He absolutely sucked his first year, has played to expectations this year. C

 

Kulikov-plus for Pysyk was a bit of a roll of the dice given his UFA status. He was a legit top 4. Best case scenario he played that way and you kept him, if not you deal him at the deadline for a second. The bench door created an unforeseeable nightmare. The thought was that we wouldn't be able to protect Pysyk in expansion anyway. Kulikov has been terrible, he got nothing at the deadline and he is unlikely to be re-signed. Right now we would be protecting Pysyk. I'm giving this trade a C- because Asplund looks like he was worth moving up for, but Kulikov himself has been an F. I don't blame Murray for that.

 

I somewhat agree on Bogo and Gorges, especially since Gorges and Gionta were kind of a set and Gionta has been what we hoped he'd be, I can't disagree more on Franson and Kulikov.

 

GMTM said he needed a fast, puck moving LD and instead signed a slow RD  that none of the experienced GM's in the NHL wanted to give more then a 1yr deal to.  Had he signed him to a one year deal, even a more expensive 1 yr deal, we could have parted company with him after last year's disaster and freed up cap space to go after the LD we still needed.  Grade D because of poor play, poor cap management and for settling for a overpaid mediocre player not in the position you said you wanted and needed. It's not an F, because Franson at least played to a Jordie Benn level this year.

 

By giving Franson a two year deal, GMTM made the panic trade of Pysyk for Kulikov to get his "balance" on D.  Getting Kulikov cost the Sabres over $3 mill more then Pysyk for ultimately inferior play.  Had we kept Pysyk, he might be the 3rd protected D from expansion, or without Franson and Kulikov we might have had the money to acquire the real quality LD GMTM has been searching for for 2 years.  Grade F.  One can hope the Asplund become a NHL center (3rd center at best in Buffalo), but remember we gave up the 38th and 89th to move up to 33rd.  According to the draft pick value charts I've seen, http://www.broadstreethockey.com/2013/4/25/4262594/nhl-draft-pick-value-trading-up, this would have been a fair trade without Pysyk for Kulikov.

 

Therefore I read the deal as two separate trades

1) Pysyk for Kulikov - Grade F

2)The 38th and 89th for the 33rd - Grade unknown.

 

In fact the trades for Kulikov and signing of Franson are two of the reasons I question GMTM's ability to solve the problem he created.

Edited March 3, 2017 by GASabresIUFAN

[dudacek]

Based on his play in Florida did you think Kulikov was a top 4 defenceman when we got him?

Do you think the injury is a factor in his play this year?

Do you think Murray should have anticipated the injury and/or a huge drop-off in play?

 

What UFA defenceman would you have signed just prior to training camp in 2015 that would have been a significant upgrade on Franson?

What defenceman has Franson's contract stopped us from acquiring?

[North Buffalo]

Sign shattenkirk as UFA , dump Bogo , Gorges, franson.   Won't happen :p

Yup that would be the fast one.

[Huckleberry]

Based on his play in Florida did you think Kulikov was a top 4 defenceman when we got him?

Do you think the injury is a factor in his play this year?

Do you think Murray should have anticipated the injury and/or a huge drop-off in play?

 

What UFA defenceman would you have signed just prior to training camp in 2015 that would have been a significant upgrade on Franson?

What defenceman has Franson's contract stopped us from acquiring?

 

I think at the time of the trade, almost everyone here thought getting Kulikov was a good deal and I still think it was.   

His injury is still affecting his play, he can't even do game day practices.

All the rest is murray just being unlucky.

 

The market for a good UFA D has been pretty bare last two years, wouldn't know who he could have signed.

Yup that would be the fast one.

 

Well I say it won't happen, but the rangers will have to move contracts before they can even give shattenkirk 7 mill a year.

So it will be interesting to see what will happen there, and if they can do it quickly enough.

[North Buffalo]

I think at the time of the trade, almost everyone here thought getting Kulikov was a good deal and I still think it was.

His injury is still affecting his play, he can't even do game day practices.

All the rest is murray just being unlucky.

 

The market for a good UFA D has been pretty bare last two years, wouldn't know who he could have signed.

 

Well I say it won't happen, but the rangers will have to move contracts before they can even give shattenkirk 7 mill a year.

So it will be interesting to see what will happen there, and if they can do it quickly enough.

Shatt in a local guy to Strangers born in New Rochelle, so who becomes available from there? Edited March 3, 2017 by North Buffalo

[GASabresIUFAN]

Based on his play in Florida did you think Kulikov was a top 4 defenceman when we got him?

Do you think the injury is a factor in his play this year?

Do you think Murray should have anticipated the injury and/or a huge drop-off in play?

 

What UFA defenceman would you have signed just prior to training camp in 2015 that would have been a significant upgrade on Franson?

What defenceman has Franson's contract stopped us from acquiring?

Play in Florida:  Good question.  When we made the trade I looked at Kulikov's numbers and advanced stats and I thought he was a more of a 5 the top 4.  His possession number were mediocre and his offensive output had been declining over the previous 3/4 season.  His possession numbers were the reason Fla put him on the market.  When compared to Pysyk'ds numbers it didn't seem like much of an upgrade and for the additional cap cost, I didn't think the deal made any sense or was necessary especially when you watch the D group improve over the 2nd half of last year with McCabe and Pysyk in the lineup.  

 

Of course the injury has played a role, but if if he is so hurt he can't practice or be effective when playing why isn't he on LTIR.  Same with Bogo.  

 

I think Murray should have had more depth on D entering the season then he did and then once he was calling up Guhle and Burgdorfer he should have made a move or two to shore up the D in Buffalo and/or Rochester instead of simply grabbing marginal ECHL D to fill in for the callups. Having better depth might have allowed us to keep Bogo and Kulikov on the IR until fully healed without sabotaging the season.  Remember that Falk and Fedun were intended to be the no.1 pair in Rochester, not the no. 2 pair in Buffalo.  Considering Bogo injury history and the fact that every team goes through significant injuries, yes GMTM should have anticipated someone getting hurt.

 

Other guys to sign instead of Franson?  Not sure.  The FA class in 2015 was pretty week and I don't know who was available in trade and for how much.  Regardless, the 2 year deal for a slow skating guy that no one else was giving a 2 year offer to was not smart and a waste of nearly $7 million.  Also the combination of Kulikov and Franson's cap hits helped put us pretty close to the cap this season, and limited GMTM's ability to take on another big contract.  

[GASabresIUFAN]

After the debacle last night, anyone else really pissed that GMTM didn't try to help this club at the deadline or at least clear some of the dead weight at any price?

[Eleven]

After the debacle last night, anyone else really pissed that GMTM didn't try to help this club at the deadline or at least clear some of the dead weight at any price?

 

Nope.  There weren't any moves to make.

[WildCard]

Trade for Ghost, fire Byslma, hire Housley 

[North Buffalo]

GHULE, draft Vilamaki and let go of enough of these free agents to clear for one of the young D top four that become available via trade or signing.  Trade may be to take dead cap salary on as well. 

Edited March 8, 2017 by North Buffalo

[Sabres Fan in NS]

After the debacle last night, anyone else really pissed that GMTM didn't try to help this club at the deadline or at least clear some of the dead weight at any price?

 

Not me.  There was nothing to be done and I don't like moves being made for the sake of doing something, especially 'at any price'.

[Sabre fan]

hate to say it but our D is actually as good or better then many other teams...it is just that their coaches let the players play to their strengths, not all made to play a boring, hang-on-for-dear-life system that both Lindy and Blysma love. It didn;t work when Lindy was here, and it ain't working now either here nor in Dallas...I wish we'd grab Hitchcock before dallas does for next season

[Eleven]

hate to say it but our D is actually as good or better then many other teams...it is just that their coaches let the players play to their strengths, not all made to play a boring, hang-on-for-dear-life system that both Lindy and Blysma love. It didn;t work when Lindy was here, and it ain't working now either here nor in Dallas...I wish we'd grab Hitchcock before dallas does for next season

 

It didn't work because it's not what they did then.

 

I do agree that the defensive personnel are average and not bad.

[JJFIVEOH]

Play in Florida:  Good question.  When we made the trade I looked at Kulikov's numbers and advanced stats and I thought he was a more of a 5 the top 4.  His possession number were mediocre and his offensive output had been declining over the previous 3/4 season.  His possession numbers were the reason Fla put him on the market.  When compared to Pysyk'ds numbers it didn't seem like much of an upgrade and for the additional cap cost, I didn't think the deal made any sense or was necessary especially when you watch the D group improve over the 2nd half of last year with McCabe and Pysyk in the lineup.  

 

Of course the injury has played a role, but if if he is so hurt he can't practice or be effective when playing why isn't he on LTIR.  Same with Bogo.  

 

I think Murray should have had more depth on D entering the season then he did and then once he was calling up Guhle and Burgdorfer he should have made a move or two to shore up the D in Buffalo and/or Rochester instead of simply grabbing marginal ECHL D to fill in for the callups. Having better depth might have allowed us to keep Bogo and Kulikov on the IR until fully healed without sabotaging the season.  Remember that Falk and Fedun were intended to be the no.1 pair in Rochester, not the no. 2 pair in Buffalo.  Considering Bogo injury history and the fact that every team goes through significant injuries, yes GMTM should have anticipated someone getting hurt.

 

Other guys to sign instead of Franson?  Not sure.  The FA class in 2015 was pretty week and I don't know who was available in trade and for how much.  Regardless, the 2 year deal for a slow skating guy that no one else was giving a 2 year offer to was not smart and a waste of nearly $7 million.  Also the combination of Kulikov and Franson's cap hits helped put us pretty close to the cap this season, and limited GMTM's ability to take on another big contract.  

 

There's more to assessing a player than just numbers. If you've watched him play extensively over the last several years, you would know. 

 

The reason Kuli was shipped out was because of his contract. The Panthers were in the process of working out several long term deals with their core and needed room, Kuli was the best option to move because he is a free agent after this year. They weren't going to hold on to a player when they weren't sure if he'd return, when they needed the space. 

 

He is a legitimate top 4, any team that gets him will be playing him top 4 minutes. Perhaps 2/3 minutes when he gets healthy and is comfortable with his linemates. 

 

Murray would be stupid to not try to sign him because he could be had for cheap because of his injury, and he's better than Goober lets him be. 

 

You mention that Kuli and Franson's contract kept Murray from doing anything more with the roster. What fantasy world do you live in where a team can have two legitimate top 4 D-men (in place of Franson and Bogo) and not have to pay for them?

 

I understand your view and your frustration, but your points are misguided and beyond realistic. 

[etiennep99]

Cale Makar:

 

I quote from TheHockeyWriters.com:

 

Standing 5 foot 10 inches and weighing in at 180 pounds, Makar’s best individual qualities as a defender are his skating abilities and his skill set with the puck.

A fleet-footed skater who can traverse the ice with ease, Makar combines his strong first step and explosive acceleration with sharp edges and ample agility. Once at full speed, Makar has no issue stopping and starting or darting in and out of traffic in order to generate offensive opportunities.

 

From McKeen's:

Brooks Bandits' defenceman Cale Makar not only made his debut in the top 30 rankings, he rocketed up the charts to crack McKeen's top 20 and be rated as the top Canadian defenceman in the draft.

 

 

 

Looking at video, he looks like he compares to Torey Krug, Phil Housley, & Tyler Ennis.   We need scoring from D.  Let Risto play more 5:5. 

Cale Makar is a RHD, but he plays LD in the videos.   As we know from Phil Housley, smaller d-men can struggle on the boards and in front of the net.

But Housley is Hall of Fame material.  And Torey Krug is getting it done at only 5'9".   Cale Makar is young enough to think that he could grow more

and add more weight.

 

What do y'all think?

[dudacek]

Kulikov is moot; he's getting as far from Buffalo as he can when UFA hits.

It's interesting the Franson has been quite vocal that he wants to stay.

 

I have no issue with Franson returning as a 5/6 and being paid accordingly to play alongside Guhle.

What I would have issue with is not acquiring the player Kulikov was supposed to be, and/or Franson, Gorges and Falk being dressed for the same game.

Edited March 8, 2017 by dudacek

[GASabresIUFAN]

The new FL Gm said he moved him because of his poor analytics and a diminished role on the team because they acquired Yandle.  Basically he didn't see him as a top 4 defender on his playoff caliber team going forward.  His $4 mill contract didn't help, but considering they still have $9 mill in cap space, trading him for cap reasons only wasn't the case.  His declining offensive output was also a factor (they essentially signed Yandle to take his spot) and Kulikov himself admitted at the time of the trade that he need to be better offensively.  I guess 1g and 1a in 39 games is the better offense he was hoping for.

 

Franson is not a top 4 D and as I've illustrated many times his stats are similar to other bottom pairing D earning $1 mill.  He is too slow, not physical enough for his size, doesn't block enough shots, takes lazy penalties because of his bad positioning and lack of speed, but other then that he's fine.  Again his signing by GMTM was a mistake when it was made.  A slow RD is not what you sign when you state you need a quick puck moving LD.  Also giving the guy, who none of the other 29 GMs wanted to give a two year deal to was a rookie mistake and it saddled us with 3.3 mil invested unnecessarily in a 3rd pairing guy.

 

Now you compound that with Kulikov.  GMTM couldn't secure Fowler from Ana so he traded Pysyk for Kulikov to get his "balance".  This despite our unbalanced D playing pretty solid hockey in the 2nd half of the last season (Franson excepted). This trade added another $3 to our cap.  So ok, we get a guy who has played top 4 minutes and "looked" ok doing it.  However, when things turned sour because of bad play and injuries, GMTM now had sunk 16 mill into 4 under-performing D (Bogo 5.1, Gorges 4, Kulikov 4 and Franson 3.3) and we were up against the cap at $71 mill.  This lack of cap room kept GMTM from having the cap space to even attempt to make an in season deal to try to steady the ship.  Now step back and ask, if you don't trade for Kulikov and keep Pysyk that adds another 3 mill of cap space. Now you have imho a better player and $5 mill in cap space to try to make a move to steady the ship.  

 

Also by giving Franson a two year deal, GMTM now had 4 RD.  Someone was ultimately the odd man out.  GMTM dumped Pysyk because between him and Franson, Pysyk had trade value.  Had GMTM only given Franson a 1 yr prove it deal (like the rest of the NHL wanted to do) he could have let Franson walk after the lousy year, kept Pysyk, a cheap 3rd pairng RD, and then gone after the LD he wanted in the first place. 

 

GMTM would also be an idiot to re-sign Kulikov.  Yes, he hasn't been healthy, but his performance when on the ice is among the worst of regular NHL D.  He now has a concussion, in addition to other issues.  His recent quote made it seem like he doesn't want to be here.  See yeah Dmitry!  

 

No Kuilkov wouldn't be playing top 4 minutes for any team in the NHL.  In fact on most contending teams he'd be a 5. Ana, Minn, NYI, Chi & Nashville are 5 teams off the top of my head that have 4 D better then a healthy Kulikov, many making the same money or less.  Add Stl, before they traded Shattenkirk and arguably even the SJ Sharks and Wash, who is now 6 deep with Shattenkirk.  I doubt Carolina would move any of their kids to make room for Kulikov either.  

 

The bottomline is that we need to reinvent this D group.  McCabe and Risto are the core and continue to grow, improve and prove they are the heart of this group.  We need more speed, better in zone play and if lucky more O support, but I'd settle for the more speed and better zone play for now.

 

We are stuck with Bogo and his terrible contract, but he might be fixable.  At least we have seen him play good hockey part of last year.  However, Gorges (buyout) and Franson (UFA) need to go asap because they don't skate well enough and don't add enough other intangibles (like blocking shotsor big time O production or play the PK well) to warrant a return.  Also Kulikov needs to go.  Sometimes it's best for all parties to part company after a disastrous season.  

Edited March 8, 2017 by GASabresIUFAN

[TrueBlueGED]

Kulikov is moot; he's getting as far from Buffalo as he can when UFA hits.

It's interesting the Franson has been quite vocal that he wants to stay.

 

I have no issue with Franson returning as a 5/6 and being paid accordingly to play alongside Guhle.

What I would have issue with is not acquiring the player Kulikov was supposed to be, and/or Franson, Gorges and Falk being dressed for the same game.

I'd very much like for Franson to return on a 1 year deal to play the bottom pair. His shortcomings are about as aesthetically displeasing as they come, but he's effective in that role.

[GASabresIUFAN]

I'd very much like for Franson to return on a 1 year deal to play the bottom pair. His shortcomings are about as aesthetically displeasing as they come, but he's effective in that role.

 

Ok, lets say he is an effective 3rd pairing guy (I disagree, but...) how much will it cost to keep him?  Another $3 mill.  Don't you think we can get the same production and play for less?  Why pay $3 mill for a $1 mill product?

[TrueBlueGED]

Ok, lets say he is an effective 3rd pairing guy (I disagree, but...) how much will it cost to keep him? Another $3 mill. Don't you think we can get the same production and play for less? Why pay $3 mill for a $1 mill product?

You honestly think he'd get a raise from his current contract? I don't.

[GASabresIUFAN]

You honestly think he'd get a raise from his current contract? I don't.

He make $3.3 now.  Giving him $3 would be a 10% pay cut.  So how much is his slow footed, no shot blocking, no PK play, lazy penalties with mediocre offense worth to you?    

Edited March 8, 2017 by GASabresIUFAN