Buffalo Bills 2017-18

[That Aud Smell]

More seriously on the point above re negative stories generating more clicks than positive ones.

 

What I had in mind is a phenomenon that I've heard related many times by sports talk radio hosts: When a team is disappointing its fans, the post-game call-in show is often overrun with calls. When a team is a world-beater and dispatching with its foes on the regular, the post-game call-in show will often have lighter call traffic. (Note: This point may not be as applicable to mega-market teams (the markets about which I've heard this dynamic aren't "big" ones (Buffalo, Cleveland, KC, Milwaukee/GB), where there will invariably be enough people to fill the phone lines.)

 

Misery loves company.

If tha internets was a thing during the K gun years there would have been even more clicks on national stories about the Bills.  Tone of stories don't generate clicks.  Interest generates clicks.  Amazing that there isn't more apathy in this town towards the Bills.

 

I tend to disagree.

 

It's a bit of different ball of yarn, but, think of the British tabloids. There's plenty of baseline interest in the royals and other celebs. But the tone of those headlines and stories has a definite angle -- salacious, embarrassing, negative.

[jeffismagic]

More seriously on the point above re negative stories generating more clicks than positive ones.

 

What I had in mind is a phenomenon that I've heard related many times by sports talk radio hosts: When a team is disappointing its fans, the post-game call-in show is often overrun with calls. When a team is a world-beater and dispatching with its foes on the regular, the post-game call-in show will often have lighter call traffic. (Note: This point may not be as applicable to mega-market teams (the markets about which I've heard this dynamic aren't "big" ones (Buffalo, Cleveland, KC, Milwaukee/GB), where there will invariably be enough people to fill the phone lines.)

 

Misery loves company.

 

I tend to disagree.

 

It's a bit of different ball of yarn, but, think of the British tabloids. There's plenty of baseline interest in the royals and other celebs. But the tone of those headlines and stories has a definite angle -- salacious, embarrassing, negative.

 

I think there are also crossroads that professional teams approach that generate interest. What is there to say when your team is just lumbering along like last year under Rex? When Pegulas fired Rex I thought that it was the perfect moment to finally fix the Bills. Unfortunately, the Pegulas decided to try to recreate the crazy Lafontaine hire with their "process" this offseason.

[SwampD]

I think there are also crossroads that professional teams approach that generate interest. What is there to say when your team is just lumbering along like last year under Rex? When Pegulas fired Rex I thought that it was the perfect moment to finally fix the Bills. Unfortunately, the Pegulas decided to try to recreate the crazy Lafontaine hire with their "process" this offseason.

I believe that there is nothing the Pegulas could have done that would make you happy.

[jeffismagic]

I believe that there is nothing the Pegulas could have done that would make you happy.

Then explain how I applauded how the Sabres did a full GM search culminating in Botterril and then Bots hired Housley, also a top candidate.

 

The Sabres did a great job and the Bills failed.

[WildCard]

Thanks for the source.

 

Bean and Botterill are about as different as you could possibly be from Murray, Whaley, and PLF for that matter. So I don't see why it even matters

Please tell me how they're different 

He moved 

Botterill had significant duties and responsibilities in Pittsburgh where his work helped result in multiple Stanley Cups. Brandon Beane has no real background in player personnel OR scouting and was hired because he is buddies with the new coach.

He was the interim GM in 2012, has been the AGM since 2015, was the director of football operations for 8 years prior to that, and has been in the league for 19 years.

 

But yeah, no experience. 

 

Whaley had a ton of experience in scouting, how'd that go? 

Bottom line is he has an agenda and refuses to budge on anything that would contradict it. 

Edited August 30, 2017 by WildCard

[jeffismagic]

 

Thanks for the source.

 

Bean and Botterill are about as different as you could possibly be from Murray, Whaley, and PLF for that matter. So I don't see why it even matters

Please tell me how they're different 

He moved 

Botterill had significant duties and responsibilities in Pittsburgh where his work helped result in multiple Stanley Cups. Brandon Beane has no real background in player personnel OR scouting and was hired because he is buddies with the new coach.

He was the interim GM in 2012, has been the AGM since 2015, was the director of football operations for 8 years prior to that, and has been in the league for 19 years.

 

But yeah, no experience. 

 

Whaley had a ton of experience in scouting, how'd that go? 

Bottom line is he has an agenda and refuses to budge on anything that would contradict it. 

 

 

Why are you quoting yourself? Just shuffling papers does not make someone qualified to find top players.

[SwampD]

Why are you quoting yourself? Just shuffling papers does not make someone qualified to find top players.

Link

[jeffismagic]

Link

 

You did not answer the question. How is that I gave credit to Pegula for a good hire by the Sabres if I am just assuming everything he does will fail? And I was very skeptical the Sabres would do the right thing. The more I learned about Botterrill the more I liked. The more I learn about mcD the less I like.

[tom webster]

Link

The point you seem to miss is that the role of GM has changed drastically over the years and even within that change every organization views it differently. Beane has surrounded himself with former head scouts and past GM's. His roll may be that of the administrator absorbing the information, studying the analytics and leading the ship. It's not like he has no football background.

[jeffismagic]

The point you seem to miss is that the role of GM has changed drastically over the years and even within that change every organization views it differently. Beane has surrounded himself with former head scouts and past GM's. His roll may be that of the administrator absorbing the information, studying the analytics and leading the ship. It's not like he has no football background.

 

Then why even bother hire someone working in football? Why not just hire a good admin guy from corporate America and cast a wider net?

[SwampD]

You did not answer the question. How is that I gave credit to Pegula for a good hire by the Sabres if I am just assuming everything he does will fail? And I was very skeptical the Sabres would do the right thing. The more I learned about Botterrill the more I liked. The more I learn about mcD the less I like.

Just because you disagree with the outcome doesn't mean they half-assed the process.

 

And we won't know if "the Sabres did a great job and the the Bills failed" for a couple of years, certainly not before either has played a single game.

[jeffismagic]

Just because you disagree with the outcome doesn't mean they half-assed the process.

 

And we won't know if "the Sabres did a great job and the the Bills failed" for a couple of years, certainly not before either has played a single game.

 

Actually, you have my position wrong. I have stated that a poor process can result in a great outcome. Maybe Beane is some mad genius. But all I know is the Bills did not conduct a real coaching search, a real GM search, and did not make a serious move to improve the QB position. 

 

I have also said that Jbots could fail. But the Sabres followed an excellent process and did bring in the best people to interview, unlike the Bills.

Edited August 30, 2017 by jeffismagic

[SwampD]

Actually, you have my position wrong. I have stated that a poor process can result in a great outcome. Maybe Beane is some mad genius. But all I know is the Bills did not conduct a real coaching search, a real GM search, and did not make a serious move to improve the QB position. 

 

I have also said that Jbots could fail. But the Sabres followed an excellent process and did bring in the best people to interview, unlike the Bills.

I understand your position. I also believe that there is no process the Pegulas could have done with regard to the Bills that would have made you happy,… I mean, other than stealing the coach/gm and QB from the Patriots, you know, the greatest team in the history of the NFL.

[jeffismagic]

I understand your position. I also believe that there is no process the Pegulas could have done with regard to the Bills that would have made you happy,… I mean, other than stealing the coach/gm and QB from the Patriots, you know, the greatest team in the history of the NFL.

 

Coaching search. Include QB gurus such as Jim Bob Cooter or Kyle Shanahan.

 

GM search: Go to the best drafting teams such as Seattle, Baltimore and steal one of their top college scouting gurus. And whoever is hired needs to make finding a QB a priority.

[WildCard]

Actually, you have my position wrong. I have stated that a poor process can result in a great outcome. Maybe Beane is some mad genius. But all I know is the Bills did not conduct a real coaching search, a real GM search, and did not make a serious move to improve the QB position. 

 

I have also said that Jbots could fail. But the Sabres followed an excellent process and did bring in the best people to interview, unlike the Bills.

This is just a post that proves your bias

[jeffismagic]

This is just a post that proves your bias

 

You're all in on a guy that will be regarded as one of the worst coaches in Bills history. 

[WildCard]

You're all in on a guy that will be regarded as one of the worst coaches in Bills history. 

And you have no reason to hate Beane and McDermott other than the hiring process, even though they're the exact same as Housley and Botterill, who you've confessed to approve of 

You did not answer the question. How is that I gave credit to Pegula for a good hire by the Sabres if I am just assuming everything he does will fail? And I was very skeptical the Sabres would do the right thing. The more I learned about Botterrill the more I liked. The more I learn about mcD the less I like.

Well Botterill is the GM, and McDermott isn't

[jeffismagic]

And you have no reason to hate Beane and McDermott other than the hiring process, even though they're the exact same as Housley and Botterill, who you've confessed to approve of 

 

Housley coaches an attacking, exciting style of hockey. Mcdermott is known for 4-3 zone defense, bend but don't break, keep the plays in front of you. Very Conservative and Boring.

 

Boterrill was actively running the AHL team while Beane was  watching film with Gettelman to beef up his resume.

 

I also don't recall Housley picking the players for the Sabres in the draft.

[That Aud Smell]

Coaching search. Include QB gurus such as Jim Bob Cooter or Kyle Shanahan.

 

GM search: Go to the best drafting teams such as Seattle, Baltimore and steal one of their top college scouting gurus. And whoever is hired needs to make finding a QB a priority.

 

I know we've gone around on this a bit upthread.

 

I'm totally okay with the idea that the Bills GM is a savvy asset manager who has experience in football matters, although he is most definitely not a "football guy" (i.e., scout), but has surrounded himself with "football guys."

 

I think there's good sound logic to taking that approach.

 

You are adamant that the way to succeed in the NFL is with a top-level talent evaluator as the team's GM. Given the Bills' recent track record with that approach, I'm not so sure. For example, Whaley was a well-regarded up and comer with the Steelers organization (a franchise you identified as one the Bills shoud emulate with its GM selection). The Bills plucked Whaley away from Pittsburgh and, under Nix, groomed him to be the guy.

 

Swing and a miss. 

 

We'll see what the future brings, holds.

[jeffismagic]

I know we've gone around on this a bit upthread.

 

I'm totally okay with the idea that the Bills GM is a savvy asset manager who has experience in football matters, although he is most definitely not a "football guy" (i.e., scout), but has surrounded himself with "football guys."

 

I think there's good sound logic to taking that approach.

 

You are adamant that the way to succeed in the NFL is with a top-level talent evaluator as the team's GM. Given the Bills' recent track record with that approach, I'm not so sure. For example, Whaley was a well-regarded up and comer with the Steelers organization (a franchise you identified as one the Bills shoud emulate with its GM selection). The Bills plucked Whaley away from Pittsburgh and, under Nix, groomed him to be the guy.

 

Swing and a miss. 

 

We'll see what the future brings, holds.

 

Whaley came from pro personnel and he was excellent at that. I am advocating hiring someone that is a draft guru. The best drafting team recently is Seattle and they hired such a guy in Schneider. Chiefs just elevated Veach who we could have had but passed on.

[WildCard]

Housley coaches an attacking, exciting style of hockey. Mcdermott is known for 4-3 zone defense, bend but don't break, keep the plays in front of you. Very Conservative and Boring.

 

Boterrill was actively running the AHL team while Beane was  watching film with Gettelman to beef up his resume.

 

I also don't recall Housley picking the players for the Sabres in the draft.

But that's not what you've attacked McDermott for all thread. You've attacked him for being a puppet master. The reason you don't recall Housley picking players is because Botterill was there, Beane wasn't hired until after the draft

 

Again, I don't know how many times I've had to pots Beane's resume but apparently I'll have to do it again. 

[That Aud Smell]

Whaley came from pro personnel and he was excellent at that. I am advocating hiring someone that is a draft guru. The best drafting team recently is Seattle and they hired such a guy in Schneider. Chiefs just elevated Veach who we could have had but passed on.

 

You're slicing things awfully thin. The distinction does not hold water for me.

 

In any case:

 

[Whaley] paid his dues and worked his way up from a pro personnel assistant and area college scout. After finishing his playing career at Pittsburgh, Whaley spent one season as a retail stockbroker before joining the Steelers as a pro personnel assistant in 1995. He spent three seasons as an East coast area college scout for Seattle before re-joining the Steelers in 1999. Whaley spent 11 years as the pro scouting coordinator in Pittsburgh, where he evaluated current players around the league in addition to college scouting.

 

https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2013/5/14/4328444/doug-whaley-bills-general-manger-buddy-nix

 

Whaley was a respected talent-evaluator from a fantastic franchise. He failed as a GM.

[Iron Crotch]

I don't think Whaley was entirely terrible as a talent evaluator. Every GM will miss on some. I think he struggled with assigning value to players are sticking to it. Watkins was probably deserving of being the #1 rated WR in his draft class. But, everyone knew that was the deeepest WR class in years. So, giving up a first round picks to move up a few spots made no sense from a value standpoint. Dareus and Glenn and Hughes are good players. But, that doesn't mean you back up the Brinx truck to pay them elite NFL money. IMHO, Whaley needed a better handle of how much each player was/is worth... and a better ability to walk away from his mistakes (see EJ Manuel).

 

If you assume the draft is a crapshoot and free agents don't really want to come to Buffalo (given many factors), then the best way to get better is to have a lot of draft picks. Whaley gave away picks. Bean is stockpiling them. I like the latter strategy much better.

[jeffismagic]

You're slicing things awfully thin. The distinction does not hold water for me.

 

In any case:

 

[Whaley] paid his dues and worked his way up from a pro personnel assistant and area college scout. After finishing his playing career at Pittsburgh, Whaley spent one season as a retail stockbroker before joining the Steelers as a pro personnel assistant in 1995. He spent three seasons as an East coast area college scout for Seattle before re-joining the Steelers in 1999. Whaley spent 11 years as the pro scouting coordinator in Pittsburgh, where he evaluated current players around the league in addition to college scouting.

 

https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2013/5/14/4328444/doug-whaley-bills-general-manger-buddy-nix

 

Whaley was a respected talent-evaluator from a fantastic franchise. He failed as a GM.

I agreed he failed as a GM. I also agree he had a top resume. So why should we consider someone with even less credentials an upgrade? And let's not forget how the Pegulas and Brandon sabatoged the top 5 defense Whaley had created.

[WildCard]

I agreed he failed as a GM. I also agree he had a top resume. So why should we consider someone with even less credentials an upgrade? And let's not forget how the Pegulas and Brandon sabatoged the top 5 defense Whaley had created.

Easy to forget things that never happened 

 

Why is Pegula not given any credit for creating that defense, but all the blame for sabotaging it

Edited August 30, 2017 by WildCard