Buffalo Bills 2017-18

[That Aud Smell]

He does have a point.  The players are not forced to play and are informed of the risks. 

 

There is a point to be made, sure.

 

This is a better response than the Emerson paraphrase.

 

So, WC, we NFL fans may be akin to the spectators at the Colosseum after all.

 

I've never bothered to Google whose phrase that was/is -- I saw it once (unattributed) and held onto it.

 

I'm also a big fan of the old saw "there's nothing new under the sun." I reckon NFL fans are very much like the Colosseum hoi polloi. For crying out loud: We've seen the #BillsMafia videos.

[Eleven]

Was that ever in question?

 

Of course.  Some people watch NASCAR for the crashes and others for the race, I would think.

 

I watch football for graceful and exciting plays, not for the hits.  The hits happen to come with the territory, unfortunately.

 

Not too long ago, there were people who only watched hockey for the fights.

 

I used to be a boxing fan.  Now that's much closer to the gladiators.  I really can't watch it anymore.

There is a point to be made, sure.

 

 

I've never bothered to Google whose phrase that was/is -- I saw it once (unattributed) and held onto it.

 

I'm also a big fan of the old saw "there's nothing new under the sun." I reckon NFL fans are very much like the Colosseum hoi polloi. For crying out loud: We've seen the #BillsMafia videos.

 

Query whether being entertained by those idiots is morally any better than watching the NFL.

[WildCard]

I'm not sure it's a matter of right and wrong, tbh. I reflexively thought that the way you articulated the position above was ill-conceived because it was purportedly simple and premised on the elements of free will and lotsa money.

 

Intellectually, that doesn't do it for me -- it doesn't do anything for me, really.

 

What your analysis seems to ignore is the consumer's role in purchasing the product. If we accept that the players now have their eyes wide open, are sufficiently educated on the risks, and choose to participate and accept the risks because of the potentially significant financial rewards, that doesn't end the inquiry. It only starts it, really.

 

Is this a product that I want to consume? Do I want to purchase something that is predicated on, in fact features, a reckless and unnecessary disregard for human health and safety? Increasingly, I don't think I want to purchase that thing. I think it communicates a disregard for human health and safety in favour of making a bunch of greasy bucks (the players make lots; the owners make a whole lot more); I think that sort of thing is corrosive toward the human spirit.

 

The various actors involved in presenting that on-field product may all be acting of their own free will.  Ultimately, I plan to do likewise.

So I should demand an inferior product to what I'm being currently presented, and charged the same, so that those involved in giving me that product have less risk? 

 

This is a better response than the Emerson paraphrase.

 

So, WC, we NFL fans may be akin to the spectators at the Colosseum after all.

Colosseum gladiators were slaves that had no other choice. If they were not, they continued to enter the ring willingly because they were good at it, it paid well, and it provided fame. 

[Eleven]

So I should demand an inferior product to what I'm being currently presented, and charged the same, so that those involved in giving me that product have less risk? 

 

Colosseum gladiators were slaves that had no other choice. If they were not, they continued to enter the ring willingly because they were good at it, it paid well, and it provided fame. 

 

I know.  I'm talking about the people who paid to go in to watch, not the fighters.

[MattPie]

Part of the problem with football is the game just doesn't function (at least I can't imagine it) without the violence. Hockey is kinda in the same boat, although I have an easier time imagining an NHL without excessive hitting[0] than an NFL.

 

[0] excessive hitting: essentially every hit Kaleta or Scott Stevens made after the puck was gone. Non-excessive: D pinning a guy against the boards on the rush, a forward bumping D off the puck, etc.

[That Aud Smell]

So I should demand an inferior product to what I'm being currently presented, and charged the same, so that those involved in giving me that product have less risk? 

 

I don't think I'm saying you should do anything.

 

I do think it's helpful in life to be reflective, self-aware, open to change, and attentive to what other people are saying.

 

Speaking of which:

 

Colosseum gladiators were slaves that had no other choice. If they were not, they continued to enter the ring willingly because they were good at it, it paid well, and it provided fame. 

I know.  I'm talking about the people who paid to go in to watch, not the fighters.

[WildCard]

I'm also a big fan of the old saw "there's nothing new under the sun." I reckon NFL fans are very much like the Colosseum hoi polloi. For crying out loud: We've seen the #BillsMafia videos.

Query whether being entertained by those idiots is morally any better than watching the NFL.

Unsurprisingly to you I'm sure, but I love Bills Mafia. They're consenting idiots, who cares what they do

[SwampD]

Of course.  Some people watch NASCAR for the crashes and others for the race, I would think.

 

I watch football for graceful and exciting plays, not for the hits.  The hits happen to come with the territory, unfortunately.

 

Not too long ago, there were people who only watched hockey for the fights.

 

I used to be a boxing fan.  Now that's much closer to the gladiators.  I really can't watch it anymore.

 

Query whether being entertained by those idiots is morally any better than watching the NFL.

I watch for both. I've delivered a crack back block like that and I look back on it fondly. I've also been on the receiving end of them. Part of the territory. The only hits I don't like are late or helmet to helmet. Everything else, the bigger the better.

[WildCard]

I know.  I'm talking about the people who paid to go in to watch, not the fighters.

I don't think I'm saying you should do anything.

 

I do think it's helpful in life to be reflective, self-aware, open to change, and attentive to what other people are saying.

 

Speaking of which:

I understand that, but they're different situations. Paying customers for Colosseum fights were supporting a violent system where the participants had no choice. 

[Eleven]

Unsurprisingly to you I'm sure, but I love Bills Mafia. They're consenting idiots, who cares what they do

 

Just to be clear, I'm only having a discussion and not condemning or judging anyone for anything.  

[WildCard]

I watch for both. I've delivered a crack back block like that and I look back on it fondly. I've also been on the receiving end of them. Part of the territory. The only hits I don't like are late or helmet to helmet. Everything else, the bigger the better.

Same. And the players love it too. This is what pisses me off so much about Richard Sherman. The dude is constantly whining about how the league has no regard for player safety, and they're all crooks, etc. Then he goes out and delivers the cheapest, dirtiest hits of anyone outside of Burfict in the game

[Eleven]

I understand that, but they're different situations. Paying customers for Colosseum fights were supporting a violent system where the participants had no choice. 

 

Fair distinction.

[WildCard]

Just to be clear, I'm only having a discussion and not condemning or judging anyone for anything.  

I think we all are. I just have a very hard time feeling bad for most athletes that are millionaires through what that sport has brought them

[That Aud Smell]

Part of the problem with football is the game just doesn't function (at least I can't imagine it) without the violence. Hockey is kinda in the same boat, although I have an easier time imagining an NHL without excessive hitting[0] than an NFL.

 

[0] excessive hitting: essentially every hit Kaleta or Scott Stevens made after the puck was gone. Non-excessive: D pinning a guy against the boards on the rush, a forward bumping D off the puck, etc.

 

Quite true.

 

I do think that, if the NFL were truly serious about grabbing the low-hanging fruit on this point, it would take a stronger hand on stuff like that happened to Burfict and Brown last night.

[Eleven]

Quite true.

 

I do think that, if the NFL were truly serious about grabbing the low-hanging fruit on this point, it would take a stronger hand on stuff like that happened to Burfict and Brown last night.

 

It needs a DoPS like the NHL has, but one that actually functions well.

[That Aud Smell]

I understand that, but they're different situations. Paying customers for Colosseum fights were supporting a violent system where the participants had no choice. 

 

Sure. So, nowadays, free persons are incentivized to do those things for lots of money, rather than forcing slaves to do it for free.

 

If that makes the difference for you, then have at it.

 

Increasingly, parents of middle class (or better) means and with higher education are not permitting Johnny or Joey to play football. In the very near future (hell, maybe already), the ranks of those players will be overwhelmingly dominated by people who came from disadvantaged backgrounds and pursued a path to the NFL through the ostensible exercise of free will.

 

And, thus, the moneyed class can commence to hoot and holler, and wager, and drink booze out of bowling balls or whatever, while products of the underclass, of their own free will, put their brains and bodies and lives on the line for the entertainment of paying customers.

 

More and more: No thanks.

 

[WildCard]

Sure. So, nowadays, free persons are incentivized to do those things for lots of money, rather than forcing slaves to do it for free.

 

If that makes the difference for you, then have at it.

 

Increasingly, parents of middle class (or better) means and with higher education are not permitting Johnny or Joey to play football. In the very near future (hell, maybe already), the ranks of those players will be overwhelmingly dominated by people who came from disadvantaged backgrounds and pursued a path to the NFL through the ostensible exercise of free will.

 

And, thus, the moneyed class can commence to hoot and holler, and wager, and drink booze out of bowling balls or whatever, while products of the underclass, of their own free will, put their brains and bodies and lives on the line for the entertainment of paying customers.

Wealth perpetuates wealth, you're right. 

 

So why not use you skills at football to get a full ride, and then take advantage of that full ride.

 

Nobody is making them go to the NFL to get out of poverty. You can get a full scholarship and have a successful career elsewhere

Edited December 5, 2017 by WildCard

[Eleven]

Sure. So, nowadays, free persons are incentivized to do those things for lots of money, rather than forcing slaves to do it for free.

 

If that makes the difference for you, then have at it.

 

Increasingly, parents of middle class (or better) means and with higher education are not permitting Johnny or Joey to play football. In the very near future (hell, maybe already), the ranks of those players will be overwhelmingly dominated by people who came from disadvantaged backgrounds and pursued a path to the NFL through the ostensible exercise of free will.

 

And, thus, the moneyed class can commence to hoot and holler, and wager, and drink booze out of bowling balls or whatever, while products of the underclass, of their own free will, put their brains and bodies and lives on the line for the entertainment of paying customers.

 

More and more: No thanks.

 

 

This is not new, though.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Eleven

[That Aud Smell]

I'm also a big fan of the old saw "there's nothing new under the sun." 

This is not new, though.

Wealth perpetuates wealth, you're right. 

 

So why not use you skills at football to get a full ride, and then take advantage of that full ride.

 

Nobody is making them go to the NFL to get out of poverty. You can get a full scholarship and have a successful career elsewhere

 

The matter of how and why under-served, disadvantaged kids do or don't use athletic achievement as a means to academic advancement is something I can't get into today -- or maybe ever.

 

I understand your view on how the role of free will connects to an enjoyment of violent spectacle.

[WildCard]

 

The matter of how and why under-served, disadvantaged kids do or don't use athletic achievement as a means to academic advancement is something I can't get into today -- or maybe ever.

 

I understand your view on how the role of free will connects to an enjoyment of violent spectacle.

I mean I'm only trying to tackle one problem at a time here. As far as your bold is concerned, I think you'd be surprised to see why have similar thoughts about this.

[darksabre]

 

The matter of how and why under-served, disadvantaged kids do or don't use athletic achievement as a means to academic advancement is something I can't get into today -- or maybe ever.

 

I understand your view on how the role of free will connects to an enjoyment of violent spectacle.

The problem is that it's hard to have this discussion without having that discussion. The two are intrinsically linked. 

[WildCard]

The problem is that it's hard to have this discussion without having that discussion. The two are intrinsically linked. 

Just pick a different sport. Say, hockey. Violent, and not built for college scholarships, and most players come from a much better background than NFL players

[That Aud Smell]

I mean I'm only trying to tackle one problem at a time here. As far as your bold is concerned, I think you'd be surprised to see why have similar thoughts about this.

 

I'm not even sure what (all of) my thoughts on the subject are. It'd be a massive topic.

 

The problem is that it's hard to have this discussion without having that discussion. The two are intrinsically linked. 

 

If I understand you correctly, then I disagree.

 

I don't need to reach a conclusion on whether and to what extent the under-privileged and underclass are truly guided by free will on their way to the NFL in order to decide that the barbarism featured and promoted by the league is repugnant.

[WildCard]

Lotta suspensions handed out from yesterday

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/21678678/juju-smith-schuster-pittsburgh-steelers-george-iloka-cincinnati-bengals-suspended-1-game/

[darksabre]

I'm not even sure what (all of) my thoughts on the subject are. It'd be a massive topic.

 

 

If I understand you correctly, then I disagree.

 

I don't need to reach a conclusion on whether and to what extent the under-privileged and underclass are truly guided by free will on their way to the NFL in order to decide that the barbarism featured and promoted by the league is repugnant.

I think that's fair. I just think if we're going to talk about the NFL being gross then we need to talk about the reasons why people play the game in spite of it.