erickompositör72 Posted September 20, 2017 Report Posted September 20, 2017 must be terrible to ONLY have to pay sales tax Trust me, it is terrible for the people in that situation. Much more than for you.
MattPie Posted September 20, 2017 Report Posted September 20, 2017 Erie county residents wont pay ######. Most of it will come from the state. a Lot of the county's contribution will be tax breaks. Cry me a river on sales tax - must be terrible to ONLY have to pay sales tax, and not get enjoy watching the state and feds take nearly half of every dollar you make, and then having to pay sales tax on everything you buy with what's left. If it wasnt for sales tax more than half the country would quite literally contribute nothing to our lovely government. Erie county cant raise the sales tax any higher because the crooked and ineffectual leaders that Erie County keeps electing can never manage with what they have. If you have a domed stadium you can do a lot more events throughout the year that wont fit in a hockey arena. The Ralph has nothing around it at all - no place to stay, no place to eat, no nothing. Put a domed stadium downtown in an area already surrounded by hotels and bars and restaurants and the possibilities are endless. Awesome, tax breaks. In other words, the taxpayers (read: people that don't make enough to get sweetheart deals on taxes) pay in the end since the county budget needs money from somewhere. Do the math: Even if Erie County "only" puts in $100M, that's $50 (ish) for every man, woman, and child in Erie County. Do you honestly believe every single person in the county is going to see $50 of new income and/or enjoyment out of the deal to offset their increased taxes?
That Aud Smell Posted September 20, 2017 Report Posted September 20, 2017 Trust me, it is terrible for the people in that situation. Much more than for you. All taxes can be tough to manage. But regressive taxes are the toughest.
Sabres Fan in NS Posted September 20, 2017 Report Posted September 20, 2017 Trust me, it is terrible for the people in that situation. Much more than for you. Correct. All taxes can be tough to manage. But regressive taxes are the toughest. Absolutely. I really hit this point hard when I teach a tax course.
Taro T Posted September 20, 2017 Report Posted September 20, 2017 Hi! Guy who doesn't know how taxes work, here. I remember being poor. Like, wicked poor. $4.75/hour and taxing my tips poor. Clearing $17k after taxes when I grossed almost $25k, poor. Who are these people that don't have to pay taxes? Honest question, I'm not being smug or snarky. Not being snug nor snarky, merely throwing some numbers out there. For a family of 4 living in NYS w/ 2 minor children, no other income sources, and not qualifying for credits other than dependent child & EITC, it looks like they'd receive $2,142 above whatever was withheld. Assuming 50% of their income was used to purchase taxable items at 8%, they'd pay out $1,600 in sales tax. In NYS taxes, prior to child credit & NYS EIC, their state tax bill would be $828. I'd expect that bill would go down significantly due to those 2 credits but didn't have their forms readily available, so we'll stick w/ that. So, they'd be paying $286 (minus any EIC & child care credits not previously calculated). There'd be an additional ~$2,825 in SS/Medicare taxes, but those technically are "insurance" so they'd arguably be included as taxes or not. There'd also be taxes on utilities but also possibly additional subsidies. So, bottom line: it could arguably be stated (most likely as the EIC & CC credits are likely at least $286 for a family of 4) that the family of 4 don't pay taxes, there will be significant justifiable pushback to this position. Please note: none of the #'s were RE-checked, so if something's off, oh well, they're simply there for discussion (or better yet, lack thereof). ;)
SwampD Posted September 20, 2017 Report Posted September 20, 2017 So, is the short answer poor people with kids?
Taro T Posted September 20, 2017 Report Posted September 20, 2017 So, is the short answer poor people with kids? If you are referring to "a typical NYS family of 4 grossing $40k/yr," that would seem appropriate.
Eleven Posted September 20, 2017 Report Posted September 20, 2017 Fun fact - The Bills are dead last in the NFL in team value. If you're talking about the Forbes survey, let's not even bother. It is fatally flawed. It valued the Bills at about 800M two months after someone purchased it for 1.4B. Obviously, if someone is willing to pay 1.4B for it, it is worth at least 1.4B.
korab rules Posted September 20, 2017 Report Posted September 20, 2017 (edited) Hi! Guy who doesn't know how taxes work, here. I remember being poor. Like, wicked poor. $4.75/hour and taxing my tips poor. Clearing $17k after taxes when I grossed almost $25k, poor. Who are these people that don't have to pay taxes? Honest question, I'm not being smug or snarky. Family of 4, not a single person was the premise. However, not sure what year it was that you were making that amount, but the federal tax rate has been 15% on income of 25K since 1998. Couldn't find a historical NY income tax table, but your NYS taxes would be roughly 6.5% on your AGI, so, I don't know how you could have possibly paid 32% in taxes. As for a family of four, by the time you take out standarized deductions and earned income tax credits and child and dependent care credits you end up paying no taxes. In 2011, the perctage of households paying no federal income tax was 46.4% It was a Fake News argument, just like our corporations pay the highest taxes. Fake news! everyone's favorite response to an argument they don't agree with. You may not recall that during 2011, it was determined that 46.4% of US households pay no federal income tax. Not much data after that - I guess the Obama admin didn't want those numbers published as they push for their goal of a majority of the country contributing nothing but legislating how much those who do pay have to pay. I'd rather lose the team. Well, this explains a lot. Trust me, it is terrible for the people in that situation. Much more than for you. Again, cry me a river. With all the handouts and hand ups and free tuition, free child care, free housing it is easier than ever to reverse your fortunes if that's what you decide you want to do. As the first college graduate in my family despite being in this country for 250 years, I am living proof. Keep your dick in your pants, your hands in your pockets, a needle out of your arm, and set your goals higher than the newest pair of sneakers on the market. Awesome, tax breaks. In other words, the taxpayers (read: people that don't make enough to get sweetheart deals on taxes) pay in the end since the county budget needs money from somewhere. Do the math: Even if Erie County "only" puts in $100M, that's $50 (ish) for every man, woman, and child in Erie County. Do you honestly believe every single person in the county is going to see $50 of new income and/or enjoyment out of the deal to offset their increased taxes? The land it would be built on is a brownfield at present generating no tax revenue. It isn't taking anything out. What value do you place on quality of life? Correct. Absolutely. I really hit this point hard when I teach a tax course. regressive taxes? you would have to be really bad at math to believe that exists in the states, and especially the great state of NY As if our progressive federal tax rate wasn't enough - here's what NY does with what is left after the feds takes their portion. For single taxpayers: 4% on the first $8,400 of taxable income. 4.5% on taxable income between $8,401 and $11,600. 5.25% on taxable income between $11,601 and $13,750. 5.9% on taxable income between $13,751 and $21,150. 6.45% on taxable income between $21,151 and $79,600. 6.65% on taxable income between $79,601 and $212,500. 6.85% on taxable income between $212,501 and $1,062,650. 8.82% on taxable income of more than $1,062,651. Here's a table showing how NYS's tax burden is shared (or more accurately isn't shared) Table 1.1: NYS Personal Income Taxes, 2010 Percent of Total Income Tax Liability Tax Returns $0-$50,000 4.6% 61.0% 50,000-100,000 23.3 26.4 100,000-200,000 18.6 9.7 200,000-1,000,000 20.2 2.6 1,000,000 & above 33.3 0.4 Note: Percentages may not add to 100% due to rounding. Source: Estimates by NYS Division of the Budget in 2010-2012 Executive Budget, Economic and Revenue Outlook Excelsior! Edited September 20, 2017 by korab rules
Sabres Fan in NS Posted September 20, 2017 Report Posted September 20, 2017 If you're talking about the Forbes survey, let's not even bother. It is fatally flawed. It valued the Bills at about 800M two months after someone purchased it for 1.4B. Obviously, if someone is willing to pay 1.4B for it, it is worth at least 1.4B. I think the $800 million is pretty close. Just because Mr. Pegula paid $1.4 billion does not mean that the team was / is worth that much. Mr. Pegula said that he was more than willing to pay a premium and did to ensure the team stayed in Buffalo. I can't see anyone else paying that much, or even close to that much.
korab rules Posted September 20, 2017 Report Posted September 20, 2017 (edited) If you're talking about the Forbes survey, let's not even bother. It is fatally flawed. It valued the Bills at about 800M two months after someone purchased it for 1.4B. Obviously, if someone is willing to pay 1.4B for it, it is worth at least 1.4B. are football teams depreciating assets? That's an aggressive schedule! Edited September 20, 2017 by korab rules
Sabres Fan in NS Posted September 20, 2017 Report Posted September 20, 2017 +++++ No offence korab, but I don't think that you fully understand the term 'regressive tax'. Any sales tax anywhere, including NYS, is, by it's very nature, regressive. The exact opposite of progressive. My apologies if this sound snarky, or big-headed, or something ... not my intention.
Eleven Posted September 20, 2017 Report Posted September 20, 2017 I think the $800 million is pretty close. Just because Mr. Pegula paid $1.4 billion does not mean that the team was / is worth that much. Mr. Pegula said that he was more than willing to pay a premium and did to ensure the team stayed in Buffalo. I can't see anyone else paying that much, or even close to that much. The best definition of the worth of something is what someone is willing to pay for it. I don't know if you do valuations, but when I hire accountants to do them, the basic goal is "what would someone pay for this?" Someone paid 1.4B for it. Ergo it is worth at least that much.
korab rules Posted September 20, 2017 Report Posted September 20, 2017 (edited) +++++ No offence korab, but I don't think that you fully understand the term 'regressive tax'. Any sales tax anywhere, including NYS, is, by it's very nature, regressive. The exact opposite of progressive. My apologies if this sound snarky, or big-headed, or something ... not my intention. I know what regressive taxes are. In a system where 50% of the population pays no income tax and the remaining 50% pays a progressively steep income tax, but everyone has to pay a small amount of sales tax on what they purchase with what they have left, the system is not regressive. sales tax is regressive, but our tax system is not. Edited September 20, 2017 by korab rules
Samson's Flow Posted September 20, 2017 Report Posted September 20, 2017 +++++ No offence korab, but I don't think that you fully understand the term 'regressive tax'. Any sales tax anywhere, including NYS, is, by it's very nature, regressive. The exact opposite of progressive. My apologies if this sound snarky, or big-headed, or something ... not my intention. To echo NS, a flat tax or a tax on consumable goods (i.e. sales tax) is naturally a regressive tax as it taxes a higher percentage of the poor's income than the wealthy. A poor person makes 20k a year, but still has to buy the same groceries, clothes etc. to live and is taxed on those purchases. The wealthy person makes 100k a year, and when they buy the same groceries and clothes, it is a significantly smaller portion of their income. Also, I worry that you are mis-representing the below quote since taxes are taken out of every paycheck, and hence paid throughout the year. Claiming 0 taxes or getting a rebate come April does not mean you haven't paid taxes. "As for a family of four, by the time you take out standarized deductions and earned income tax credits and child and dependent care credits you end up paying no taxes. In 2011, the percentage of households paying no federal income tax was 46.4%"
That Aud Smell Posted September 20, 2017 Report Posted September 20, 2017 Just because Mr. Pegula paid $1.4 billion does not mean that the team was / is worth that much. Um. Someone paid 1.4B for it. Ergo it is worth at least that much. Yeah.
Samson's Flow Posted September 20, 2017 Report Posted September 20, 2017 The best definition of the worth of something is what someone is willing to pay for it. I don't know if you do valuations, but when I hire accountants to do them, the basic goal is "what would someone pay for this?" Someone paid 1.4B for it. Ergo it is worth at least that much. Exactly. There's a reason real estate markets look at local comps of recently sold homes to determine listing price. If someone pays that much for something, it is worth that much on the open market.
korab rules Posted September 20, 2017 Report Posted September 20, 2017 (edited) To echo NS, a flat tax or a tax on consumable goods (i.e. sales tax) is naturally a regressive tax as it taxes a higher percentage of the poor's income than the wealthy. A poor person makes 20k a year, but still has to buy the same groceries, clothes etc. to live and is taxed on those purchases. The wealthy person makes 100k a year, and when they buy the same groceries and clothes, it is a significantly smaller portion of their income. Also, I worry that you are mis-representing the below quote since taxes are taken out of every paycheck, and hence paid throughout the year. Claiming 0 taxes or getting a rebate come April does not mean you haven't paid taxes. I know that sales tax on its own is regressive.. but sales tax is a small piece of the tax pie. As a whole our tax SYSTEM is progressive. As to some people paying taxes - THEY GET IT ALL BACK! If taxes are withheld, but you get them all back at the end of he year, you haven't paid taxes. Some people get more back than they paid in! And in the mean time, their mother or father or cousin may be getting paid by the tax payers to watch their kid, and they don't pay any taxes either. Unless you have been in the belly of the beast and seen the abuse in this system its hard to understand what is happening. Edited September 20, 2017 by korab rules
Samson's Flow Posted September 20, 2017 Report Posted September 20, 2017 I know that sales tax on its own is regressive.. but sales tax is a small piece of the tax pie. As a whole our tax SYSTEM is progressive. As to some people paying taxes - THEY GET IT ALL BACK! Some people get more back than they paid in! And in the mean time, their mother or father or cousin may be getting paid by the tax payers to watch their kid, and they don't pay any taxes either. Unless you have been in the belly of the beast and seen the abuse in this system its hard to understand what is happening. Thanks for clarifying your posts. I agree - sales tax is on its own regressive, but the income tax is progressive (many will argue how progressive it should be). Just reminding that sales tax is a much larger piece of the pie for the poverty-middle class citizens, and can cause day to day hardship as a result. I don't want to stray too far into this discussion as we are getting dangerously close to the Politics thread stuff.
Sabres Fan in NS Posted September 20, 2017 Report Posted September 20, 2017 The best definition of the worth of something is what someone is willing to pay for it. I don't know if you do valuations, but when I hire accountants to do them, the basic goal is "what would someone pay for this?" Someone paid 1.4B for it. Ergo it is worth at least that much. I don't do evaluations, but I do understand what you are saying about what someone would pay for it. The key is an open market where everyone is on a reasonably level playing field. That is all out the window when someone comes along and is willing to pay a huge premium for whatever the reason. Ask yourself this question ... if Mr. Pegula decided to sell the Bills today would he get his $1.4 billion back? I can pretty much assure you that he would not. I know what regressive taxes are. In a system where 50% of the population pays no income tax and the remaining 50% pays a progressively steep income tax, but everyone has to pay a small amount of sales tax on what they purchase with what they have left, the system is not regressive. The poorer you are the more sales tax you have to pay in relation to what is left over to make your purchase. Who is hurt more by paying the sales tax? A high income earner with much left over after paying their income tax, or a low income earner with very little left after paying their income tax, or even no income tax. Say, person A has $100,000 disposable income left after taxes. They spend $10,000 and pay $650 in NYS sales tax (I think you said the NYS sales tax is 6.5%). They still have a big pile of savings. Say, person B has only $10,000 of after tax income to buy anything and everything. They spend all of it and pay the same $650 in sales tax. They have nothing left over and are even in debt for the $650. Therefore, the sales tax impacts the low income earner much more than a high income earner. That is the regressive nature of all sales taxes, everywhere. +++++ I just read korab's reply to Boyes. I see that you do get it. My apologies.
erickompositör72 Posted September 20, 2017 Report Posted September 20, 2017 Again, cry me a river. With all the handouts and hand ups and free tuition, free child care, free housing it is easier than ever to reverse your fortunes if that's what you decide you want to do. As the first college graduate in my family despite being in this country for 250 years, I am living proof. You obviously have very limited exposure to what many people out there are facing. It's OK; many people live in a bubble
korab rules Posted September 20, 2017 Report Posted September 20, 2017 You obviously have very limited exposure to what many people out there are facing. It's OK; many people live in a bubble lol - you have no idea. I spent years working in and around the system.
WildCard Posted September 20, 2017 Author Report Posted September 20, 2017 lol - you have no idea. I spent years working in and around the game. I see you, Ron Jeremy
ubkev Posted September 20, 2017 Report Posted September 20, 2017 Korab, I unintentionally misrepresented. I say "after taxes" turns out, I mean "after taxes, insurance, social security, Medicare?, 401k." Anywhooo, not a lot left to pay rent, stay warm and buy food. Would have been nice to have that few grand back instead of the couple hundred I did get back. Wish I was responsible enough with my money to not ever buy bills tickets with it. That was a waste, every time. Can't remember ever being happy when leaving orchard park after a game. Nope, not once! Always sidestepping vomit and jumping over streams of piss and getting my balls broken by fans of whatever team just curb stomped Buffalo. the bills!
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