Buffalo Bills 2017-18

[JujuFish]

I"m referring to the fact that they let them within touchdown range three (four?) times and only gave up three field goals.

 

The defense only allowed 255 total yards.  I get what you're saying, but I'd argue that 255 yards is very little bend.  Buffalo is 2nd in total yards allowed per game, behind only Carolina.  Granted, that total comes against the Jets and Panthers, both in the bottom 8 in the league in offensive yards per game.  Still, it's a very promising start for the defense.

[Hank]

Fun fact - The Bills are dead last in the NFL in team value.

[North Buffalo]

Because the Bills arent going anywhere and even the casual fans know it and have tuned out.

[LGR4GM]

Almost like someone should fire Russ Brandon because you don't actually make money by being a bargain basement team for 2 decades. 

[That Aud Smell]

Fun fact - The Bills are dead last in the NFL in team value.

 

Fwiw, Forbes (who does these things) was wrong on just about every number associated with the Pegulas' purchase of the Bills.

 

Also, I mean it when I say: Funking funk the NFL. It is a real estate development association masquerading as a pro sports league. Its avarice is unparalleled. I had to turn off a Sunday night and Monday game -- at Minnesota and at Atlanta, IIRC -- because I could not stomach the knob-polishing the networks were required to do for the largely taxpayer-funded palaces the billionaire owners insisted be built.

[Hank]

Fwiw, Forbes (who does these things) was wrong on just about every number associated with the Pegulas' purchase of the Bills.

 

Also, I mean it when I say: Funking funk the NFL. It is a real estate development association masquerading as a pro sports league. Its avarice is unparalleled. I had to turn off a Sunday night and Monday game -- at Minnesota and at Atlanta, IIRC -- because I could not stomach the knob-polishing the networks were required to do for the largely taxpayer-funded palaces the billionaire owners insisted be built.

I have the opposite view as you when it comes to taxpayers funding arenas (and to a lesser extent, stadiums) would you be interested in a well intended dabate? Maybe over PM so we don't irritate the masses? Edited September 20, 2017 by Hank

[rakish]

No please irritate the masses, better yet, start a new link that people can ignore if they don't care.

[shrader]

Fun fact - The Bills are dead last in the NFL in team value.

 

How high have the Raiders jumped now that they're moving?

[LGR4GM]

Fwiw, Forbes (who does these things) was wrong on just about every number associated with the Pegulas' purchase of the Bills.

 

Also, I mean it when I say: Funking funk the NFL. It is a real estate development association masquerading as a pro sports league. Its avarice is unparalleled. I had to turn off a Sunday night and Monday game -- at Minnesota and at Atlanta, IIRC -- because I could not stomach the knob-polishing the networks were required to do for the largely taxpayer-funded palaces the billionaire owners insisted be built.

If Pegula wants the taxpayers of Erie County to pay for his new Stadium, oh man am I going to turn on him so fast. You are worth 4billion and the NFL made what? 13Billion last year. Build your own damn palace with your own GD money and leave the average family of 4 with their 40k alone. 

I have the opposite view as you when it comes to taxpayers funding arenas (and to a lesser extent, stadiums) would you be interested in a well intended dabate? Maybe over PM so we don't irritate the masses?

It isn't well intended debt. There are countless studies that show taxpayer funded mega arenas literally never make the county money/taxpayer money back. How many fans from outside the WNY area come to Bills games? maybe what 5-10% of the total crowd. Most people going to the game already pay taxes and spend their money inside the county. Building taxpayer funded mega stadiums is a pyramid scheme. 

[That Aud Smell]

I have the opposite view as you when it comes to taxpayers funding arenas (and to a lesser extent, stadiums) would you be interested in a well intended dabate? Maybe over PM so we don't irritate the masses?

 

A PM debate over the merits of stadium financing? No thanks.

 

The taxpayer-funding issue isn't even central to my hate for the NFL as a greedy colossus. It's part of the picture, of course.

 

Anyway, I don't know that we'd need to hijack the thread to sketch out why we think taxpayer-supported (or tax-advantaged) subsidies for stadiums is a good or bad idea.

 

Here's my nutshell: There is little to no evidence that stadiums provide any meaningful local economic benefits to the communities where they're built. There have been dozens of to 100+ peer-reviewed studies that have found NO connection between stadiums and benefits to local economies. 

 

If Pegula wants the taxpayers of Erie County to pay for his new Stadium, oh man am I going to turn on him so fast. You are worth 4billion and the NFL made what? 13Billion last year. Build your own damn palace with your own GD money and leave the average family of 4 with their 40k alone. 

It isn't well intended debt. There are countless studies that show taxpayer funded mega arenas literally never make the county money/taxpayer money back. How many fans from outside the WNY area come to Bills games? maybe what 5-10% of the total crowd. Most people going to the game already pay taxes and spend their money inside the county. Building taxpayer funded mega stadiums is a pyramid scheme. 

 

It very much remains an open question what the Pegulas will do re a new stadium.

 

The one person I want out of the picture when that decision rolls around is Brandon.

Edited September 20, 2017 by That Aud Smell

[nfreeman]

A PM debate over the merits of stadium financing? No thanks.

 

The taxpayer-funding issue isn't even central to my hate for the NFL as a greedy colossus. It's part of the picture, of course.

 

Anyway, I don't know that we'd need to hijack the thread to sketch out why we think taxpayer-supported (or tax-advantaged) subsidies for stadiums is a good or bad idea.

 

Here's my nutshell: There is little to no evidence that stadiums provide any meaningful local economic benefits to the communities where they're built. There have been dozens of to 100+ peer-reviewed studies that have found NO connection between stadiums and benefits to local economies. 

 

 

It very much remains an open question what the Pegulas will do re a new stadium.

 

The one person I want out of the picture when that decision rolls around is Brandon.

 

 

Regarding the first bolded item:  this is 100% true, especially in a city like Buffalo, which will have very few non-NFL events at the stadium.  However, and unfortunately, the economics aren't really the question IMHO -- the question is whether the city/state values having the NFL team enough to write a huge check for a new stadium, since if it refuses to do so, the team will leave.

 

Now, I think that TP will demand much less public money than most NFL owners have demanded, but no one should kid himself or herself that it won't cost anything.  It will cost a lot -- I would expect at least $500MM in public money -- so everyone will need to decide whether he/she personally would prefer that the public absorb that cost, as opposed to lose the team.

 

As for Brandon, although I would like to see him gone as much as the next guy, I will give him credit for his role in several rounds of successful negotiations and agreements with WNY.  He's not the reason the Bills are still in WNY -- that is to Ralph's eternal credit -- but he did execute Ralph's wishes successfully, which isn't nothing.

[That Aud Smell]

Regarding the first bolded item:  this is 100% true, especially in a city like Buffalo, which will have very few non-NFL events at the stadium.  However, and unfortunately, the economics aren't really the question IMHO -- the question is whether the city/state values having the NFL team enough to write a huge check for a new stadium, since if it refuses to do so, the team will leave.

 

Now, I think that TP will demand much less public money than most NFL owners have demanded, but no one should kid himself or herself that it won't cost anything.  It will cost a lot -- I would expect at least $500MM in public money -- so everyone will need to decide whether he/she personally would prefer that the public absorb that cost, as opposed to lose the team.

 

Fair, true, and accurate points.

 

Which brings me back around to my antipathy for the NFL -- what it is and what it seeks to be. There's no actual economic benefit in the deal for anyone (other than the team and league) -- it's just that warm and fuzzy (I guess?) feeling you get from having your team in town. Blechk. No thanks. I'd sooner move on with my life rather than strike that sort of bargain. But I also know that I'm in a distinct minority on that score.

 

Also, not for nothing, but the "everyone" you reference above is most likely going to be people outside of the 8 counties of WNY. The Pegulas will be looking for NYS money. I'll be curious to see how that plays out.

 

As for Brandon, although I would like to see him gone as much as the next guy, I will give him credit for his role in several rounds of successful negotiations and agreements with WNY.  He's not the reason the Bills are still in WNY -- that is to Ralph's eternal credit -- but he did execute Ralph's wishes successfully, which isn't nothing.

 

These things are also true. I also think that this is an area of operations where his skill set is a good fit.

 

I just don't like or trust the guy, with regard to the Bills or much of anything else. So I'd much rather see him gone before a big, big decision or set of decisions needs to be made.

 

A guy can dream, after all.

Edited September 20, 2017 by That Aud Smell

[korab rules]

If Pegula wants the taxpayers of Erie County to pay for his new Stadium, oh man am I going to turn on him so fast. You are worth 4billion and the NFL made what? 13Billion last year. Build your own damn palace with your own GD money and leave the average family of 4 with their 40k alone. 

It isn't well intended debt. There are countless studies that show taxpayer funded mega arenas literally never make the county money/taxpayer money back. How many fans from outside the WNY area come to Bills games? maybe what 5-10% of the total crowd. Most people going to the game already pay taxes and spend their money inside the county. Building taxpayer funded mega stadiums is a pyramid scheme. 

Your first paragraph above is bullspit.  The average family of 4 making 40K pays no taxes at all.

 

The second paragraph fails to take into account the broader benefits of a stadium, especially the downtown stadium that will serve as a further lynchpin for pegulaville-on-the-lake and make it easier to attract quality businesses and for those quality businesses to stay open.  A domed stadium in the heart of an area we are desperately trying to reinvigorate that can be used 365 days a year is infinitely better than an open air stadium in the middle of nowhere which is uninhabitable most of the year and currently only used 10 times a year and for a couple of concerts.     

[SwampD]

Your first paragraph above is bullspit.  The average family of 4 making 40K pays no taxes at all.

 

The second paragraph fails to take into account the broader benefits of a stadium, especially the downtown stadium that will serve as a further lynchpin for pegulaville-on-the-lake and make it easier to attract quality businesses and for those quality businesses to stay open.  A domed stadium in the heart of an area we are desperately trying to reinvigorate that can be used 365 days a year is infinitely better than an open air stadium in the middle of nowhere which is uninhabitable most of the year and currently only used 10 times a year and for a couple of concerts.     

Isn't there 8% sales tax in Erie county? They pay plenty of tax.

[LGR4GM]

Your first paragraph above is bullspit.  The average family of 4 making 40K pays no taxes at all.

 

The second paragraph fails to take into account the broader benefits of a stadium, especially the downtown stadium that will serve as a further lynchpin for pegulaville-on-the-lake and make it easier to attract quality businesses and for those quality businesses to stay open.  A domed stadium in the heart of an area we are desperately trying to reinvigorate that can be used 365 days a year is infinitely better than an open air stadium in the middle of nowhere which is uninhabitable most of the year and currently only used 10 times a year and for a couple of concerts.     

First, see below. There are more taxes than just income tax. That makes your argument Bullspit. What if erie county raises sales tax 2% for 10-15 years to pay for the super palace? To bad little johnny, we would have but you that school book you needed but we had to spend an extra 2% on everything we bought this year so sports could happen. Don't worry though, there will be some mythical economic impact down the line... someday.  

 

Second. There are what 8 home games a year and maybe 8 concerts/other things that will be held at the stadium.  Most other things will be at Key Bank because Buffalo isn't large enough to need a football venue that often. So right now you are telling me that the 16 events a year are going to bring enough money to Buffalo to make it worth charging Erie County residents upwards of 500k for said stadium. Hell no. You know what 500k could be used for, feeding the homeless, housing the homeless, taking care of WNY veterans, making sure children have a free school lunch... or we can watch millionaires hit eachother while Billionaires sit in air conditioned suites bragging about how swanky the stadium they used taxpayer money for them feel. No thanks. 

 

Third. The NFL made 13Billion last year. Pegula is worth at least 4 Billion. You're telling me the NFL and Terry Pegula can't say hey the Ralph is really old, let's take 200,000 from the NFL profits and Pegula puts in 200K from his account each year for 3 years and then Bam. You just pay for it yourself. It is an absolute joke when Billionaires come begging for money for football stadiums. At least hockey arena's get more use. 

 

Isn't there 8% sales tax in Erie county? They pay plenty of tax.

[nfreeman]

Isn't there 8% sales tax in Erie county? They pay plenty of tax.

 

Correct -- everyone, regardless of income level, will get hit with whatever sales taxes, booze taxes, electric/water/other utility taxes, etc. that are utilized to pay the public portion of the cost.

 

Korab -- a downtown domed stadium would be used more than the Ralph, but I doubt the increased usage would be substantial. 

[korab rules]

Isn't there 8% sales tax in Erie county? They pay plenty of tax.

I meant income tax.  Erie County is all the way up to 8.75%!  4.75% of that goes to the County.

 

Plenty?  When I think how they tax me, tax me on what's left, tax me on what I manage to save, tax me on what I own, and tax me all over again on anything I have left after I die, paying 8.75% sales tax is meaningless.

[SwampD]

The NFL sells everything related to them. It's totally in line that they sell the right to have a team to root for. Taxpayer funded stadia are just the free market at work.

 

:blink:  Wait, what?

 

 

If we don't pay for the right to have a team to root for, some other region will.

[LGR4GM]

Building a mixed use hockey arena makes sense. You can have concerts and other shows, you can do other hockey stuff (World Juniors) and hockey fills the place 41 times a year. Football, 8 times a year, maybe 8 other events if we are being generous. 16 days a year... not worth it for the taxpayers. 

I meant income tax.  Erie County is all the way up to 8.75%!  4.75% of that goes to the County.

 

Plenty?  When I think how they tax me, tax me on what's left, tax me on what I manage to save, tax me on what I own, and tax me all over again on anything I have left after I die, paying 8.75% sales tax is meaningless.

It is meaningless to you but you might be better off than 50% or 75% of Erie County. 

The NFL sells everything related to them. It's totally in line that they sell the right to have a team to root for. Taxpayer funded stadia are just the free market at work.

 

:blink:  Wait, what?

 

 

If we don't pay for the right to have a team to root for, some other region will.

Considering the last 17 years of Bills football, it is a right I am not sure I need. 

[korab rules]

First, see below. There are more taxes than just income tax. That makes your argument Bullspit. What if erie county raises sales tax 2% for 10-15 years to pay for the super palace? To bad little johnny, we would have but you that school book you needed but we had to spend an extra 2% on everything we bought this year so sports could happen. Don't worry though, there will be some mythical economic impact down the line... someday.  

 

Second. There are what 8 home games a year and maybe 8 concerts/other things that will be held at the stadium.  Most other things will be at Key Bank because Buffalo isn't large enough to need a football venue that often. So right now you are telling me that the 16 events a year are going to bring enough money to Buffalo to make it worth charging Erie County residents upwards of 500k for said stadium. Hell no. You know what 500k could be used for, feeding the homeless, housing the homeless, taking care of WNY veterans, making sure children have a free school lunch... or we can watch millionaires hit eachother while Billionaires sit in air conditioned suites bragging about how swanky the stadium they used taxpayer money for them feel. No thanks. 

 

Third. The NFL made 13Billion last year. Pegula is worth at least 4 Billion. You're telling me the NFL and Terry Pegula can't say hey the Ralph is really old, let's take 200,000 from the NFL profits and Pegula puts in 200K from his account each year for 3 years and then Bam. You just pay for it yourself. It is an absolute joke when Billionaires come begging for money for football stadiums. At least hockey arena's get more use. 

Erie county residents wont pay ######.  Most of it will come from the state.  a Lot of the county's contribution will be tax breaks.  Cry me a river on sales tax - must be terrible to ONLY have to pay sales tax, and not get enjoy watching the state and feds take nearly half of every dollar you make, and then having to pay sales tax on everything you buy with what's left.  If it wasnt for sales tax more than half the country would quite literally contribute nothing to our lovely government.  Erie county cant raise the sales tax any higher because the crooked and ineffectual leaders that Erie County keeps electing can never manage with what they have.

 

If you have a domed stadium you can do a lot more events throughout the year that wont fit in a hockey arena.  The Ralph has nothing around it at all - no place to stay, no place to eat, no nothing.  Put a domed stadium downtown in an area already surrounded by hotels and bars and restaurants and the possibilities are endless.

Edited September 20, 2017 by korab rules

[ubkev]

Hi! Guy who doesn't know how taxes work, here. I remember being poor. Like, wicked poor. $4.75/hour and taxing my tips poor. Clearing $17k after taxes when I grossed almost $25k, poor. Who are these people that don't have to pay taxes? Honest question, I'm not being smug or snarky.

[nfreeman]

Third. The NFL made 13Billion last year. Pegula is worth at least 4 Billion. You're telling me the NFL and Terry Pegula can't say hey the Ralph is really old, let's take 200,000 from the NFL profits and Pegula puts in 200K from his account each year for 3 years and then Bam. You just pay for it yourself. It is an absolute joke when Billionaires come begging for money for football stadiums. At least hockey arena's get more use. 

 

Whether the NFL and/or TP could pay for a new stadium themselves is neither here nor there.  They could, but they don't need to, so they won't.

 

We can cry ourselves a river over the amorality of the situation, but it won't affect the need to make the decision:  do you want to pay a large amount of public money, or do you want to lose the team?

 

(FWIW, I agree with pretty much everything you've said on this, and I would much rather keep the Ralph, which is a great place to watch a football game, than replace it with a new stadium.  But that doesn't change the reality.)

[SwampD]

Hi! Guy who doesn't know how taxes work, here. I remember being poor. Like, wicked poor. $4.75/hour and taxing my tips poor. Clearing $17k after taxes when I grossed almost $25k, poor. Who are these people that don't have to pay taxes? Honest question, I'm not being smug or snarky.

It was a Fake News argument, just like our corporations pay the highest taxes.

[LGR4GM]

I'd rather lose the team. 

 do you want to pay a large amount of public money, or do you want to lose the team?

 

[That Aud Smell]

The second paragraph fails to take into account the broader benefits of a stadium, especially the downtown stadium that will serve as a further lynchpin for pegulaville-on-the-lake and make it easier to attract quality businesses and for those quality businesses to stay open.  A domed stadium in the heart of an area we are desperately trying to reinvigorate that can be used 365 days a year is infinitely better than an open air stadium in the middle of nowhere which is uninhabitable most of the year and currently only used 10 times a year and for a couple of concerts.     

 

Oy. The absolutely overwhelming majority (in fact, I've never seen reference to a paper to the contrary) of all published and analyzed data unambiguously refutes this concept.

 

If we don't pay for the right to have a team to root for, some other region will.

 

Yep. That is what it will come down to. I'm past agonizing over the morality, the fairness, the justness (?), etc. of this scenario. It is what it is. 

 

Your town/region/state pays up per the owner's demands (whatever those may be), or the team leaves. Just ask Oakland or, maybe to a lesser degree, St. Louis.

 

Granted, we seem to have a better owner than the ones involved in the Rams and Raiders situations, but ... even so.

 

Erie county residents wont pay ######.  Most of it will come from the state.  a Lot of the county's contribution will be tax breaks.  Cry me a river on sales tax - must be terrible to ONLY have to pay sales tax, and not get enjoy watching the state and feds take nearly half of every dollar you make, and then having to pay sales tax on everything you buy with what's left.  If it wasnt for sales tax more than half the country would quite literally contribute nothing to our lovely government.  Erie county cant raise the sales tax any higher because the crooked and ineffectual leaders that Erie County keeps electing can never manage with what they have.

 

If you have a domed stadium you can do a lot more events throughout the year that wont fit in a hockey arena.  The Ralph has nothing around it at all - no place to stay, no place to eat, no nothing.  Put a domed stadium downtown in an area already surrounded by hotels and bars and restaurants and the possibilities are endless.

 

That's true.

 

That's not really part of equation. It's a simple proposition: Pay up, or say goodbye. The promise of ancillary benefits and development is little more than a fiction.

 

The best Erie County can hope for is (1) a reasonable demand from the Pegulas and (2) a lotta money from NYS.