Fixing the 4th line - could it help fix the Sabres?

[GASabresIUFAN]

We have 10 forwards

Eichel, Reinhart, Foligno, Kane, Okposo, Ennis, ROR, Girgensons, Gionta and Moulson.

 

Larsson is out for the season. Delo is a marginal player and Carrier has potential, but imho is better off playing top line minutes in the AHL, then 4th line minutes in the NHL.

 

Why I'm looking at this is that since COR re-joined the Sabres, DD has been playing the 4th line about 5-6 minutes a game. This isn't good enough. Even the Dallas commentators mentioned this as an achilles heal of the Sabres.

 

I'd like to see GMTM make a couple of small deals to enhance the 4th line and the PK. A few years ago Montreal acquired Mitchell and Flynn from us plus former Sabre Paul Byron to enhance their 4th line and overall depth and all 3 still have solid roles on the Canadians. I think we got a 5th for Flynn and 7th for Mitchell. I suspect similar players could be had for similar prices right now and both would be improvements over what we are fielding now.

Edited January 29, 2017 by GASabresIUFAN

[Weave]

Our 4th line sucks.  They are at a disadvantage every time they are on the ice.  It's been this way since Matt Friggin Ellis. 

 

I don't mind Carrier and Moulson down there, but it needs an NHL center.  When Larsson returns I'd like to see Girgs keep his 3rd line center spot and Larsson center a capable 4th line with a hot kid and Matty. 

 

 

If we are going to make a deal for this season, let's make it for a capable center, not a wing.

Edited January 29, 2017 by We've

[GASabresIUFAN]

I agree.  What is interesting is how the 4th line PT decreased after losing Grant.  Larsson is done for the year, so his return will have to be next season.  

 

To improve the 4th line the Sabres need to make a deal now.  Waiting until the deadline wastes 4 weeks of the season when the new 4th line center can be an asset and help get us into contention.  Sadly, I don't see GMTM making such a deal until the deadline if at all.  He is going to wait to see if his 3 line team can make a move, if not he'll trade Kane for some long-term D help.

[Scottysabres]

Yes, "fixing" the 4th line would "help" fix the Sabres. So would fixing the 1st line, the 2nd line and the 3rd line.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Yes, "fixing" the 4th line would "help" fix the Sabres. So would fixing the 1st line, the 2nd line and the 3rd line.

Scotty, the only jobs that are available are on the 4th line, unless GMTM decides to trade vets like Gionta and Kane.  We are desperate to enhance the 4th line and the PK.  Our Pk has allowed 37 goals (4th worst) and is 29th in % at 74.1. Only Dallas is worse at 74%.  (by comparison, our top 10 PP has only scored 34 goals).  

 

By getting a couple of players who can skate 4th line minutes and enhance the PK, it would go along way toward helping the Sabres keep leads and prevent us from falling behind.  

[pastajoe]

I don't think the PK problem is with the forwards, it's with the D.  ROR, Zemgus, Kane, and Gionta can do the job.  I'd like to see Eichel get more chances given his speed and long stick, but perhaps they don't want to tire him out.  Most of the goals are scored because the D isn't clearing out the slot, so the goalies are screened or the scorer's stick is left free to get a rebound or deflection.  And when they chase the puck in the corner or below the goal line and lose the battle, it allows the pass out to a shooter.

 

For 4th line, that's not the proper role for Moulson.  He's too slow and not physical enough, but his performance doesn't warrant top line minutes.  If it wasn't for his contract, I believe he would be sitting or waived.  DLo is a fine 4th liner, a physical forechecker who needs fast line mates to complement him.  Maybe try Tim Kennedy at C with DLo and Carrier.  He could also play the PK and 2nd PP if needed.

[woods-racer]

You want to fix the forth line, then you need to find the David Legwands of the NHL.  Smart, have lost a step old guys, that know what the opposing teams player is going to do before he even knows what he is going to do.

 

Finding *good* 3rd/4th line AHL grinders to be 4rth line/PK guys gets us what we have.

[woods-racer]

I don't think the PK problem is with the forwards, it's with the D.  ROR, Zemgus, Kane, and Gionta can do the job.  I'd like to see Eichel get more chances given his speed and long stick, but perhaps they don't want to tire him out.  Most of the goals are scored because the D isn't clearing out the slot, so the goalies are screened or the scorer's stick is left free to get a rebound or deflection.  And when they chase the puck in the corner or below the goal line and lose the battle, it allows the pass out to a shooter.

 

For 4th line, that's not the proper role for Moulson.  He's too slow and not physical enough, but his performance doesn't warrant top line minutes.  If it wasn't for his contract, I believe he would be sitting or waived.  DLo is a fine 4th liner, a physical forechecker who needs fast line mates to complement him.  Maybe try Tim Kennedy at C with DLo and Carrier.  He could also play the PK and 2nd PP if needed.

 

PK rankings by year.

 

16/17     29th

15/16       9th

14/15     30th

13/14     20th

12/13     26th

11/12     19th

10/11     13th

 9/10       2nd

 

How I view this.

 

The 15/16 team had a hot goalie, some puck luck and David Legwand.

 

The 16/17 is poorly coached, and with the current roster should be the 19th/20th over all PK unit.

Edited January 30, 2017 by Woods-Racer

[dudacek]

Whoa, PK no longer 30th?

First time since November, no?

[Norcal]

Moulson and D-Lo aren't going anywhere anytime soon (atleast till the end of the year) because of the chemistry they bring to the room IMO. Next year Moulson will be in Rochester if he's not in Vegas. The 4th line doesn't get enough ice time to be an effective unit, i'd like to see Carrier get more minutes so he can cause mayhem like he does every time he's on the ice.

[Drunkard]

Yes, "fixing" the 4th line would "help" fix the Sabres. So would fixing the 1st line, the 2nd line and the 3rd line.

 

Exactly. Upgrading at any position should help to upgrade that position down through the entire lineup. Getting a shiny new stud LW for the top line would allow us to move the current top LW (whoever the hell that is at the moment) down to the 2nd line, 2nd to 3rd, and so forth. Obviously there's only so much cap space though so it's not feasible to only upgrade from the top down. The key is finding value when it becomes available whether it's a top line winger, 3rd line center, or 4th line grinder. I definitely wouldn't focus only on the 4th line though.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Exactly. Upgrading at any position should help to upgrade that position down through the entire lineup. Getting a shiny new stud LW for the top line would allow us to move the current top LW (whoever the hell that is at the moment) down to the 2nd line, 2nd to 3rd, and so forth. Obviously there's only so much cap space though so it's not feasible to only upgrade from the top down. The key is finding value when it becomes available whether it's a top line winger, 3rd line center, or 4th line grinder. I definitely wouldn't focus only on the 4th line though.

That is certainly true to a certain extent, until you deposit Moulson on your 4th line.  However, the point of this thread is what can be done now to improve the Sabres.  Getting a top line forward is extremely hard in trade or in free agency without a big cost in assets (players, prospects and or picks) and or $.  It's not impossible, take the Okposo and ROR deals, but it is difficult and is often best done over the summer.  Trades like the Vanek/Moulson deal are very uncommon during the season.  However, enhancing the 4th line and PK is much more easily accomplished in terms of assets, $ and timing.  

 

As to Delo, getting 5 minutes a game doesn't make you a solid 4th liner, it makes you expendable and replaceable.

[woods-racer]

Whoa, PK no longer 30th?

First time since November, no?

 

As of the all star break.

 

I can't remember which site I got the info from.

 

Nilsson was hot on the PK in Lehner's sickness/injury absence?

[Two or less]

I think we have a real good fourth line in the making.

 

Carrier - Girgensons - Bailey

 

Speed and grit. With some finishing ability.

[grinreaper]

I don't think the PK problem is with the forwards, it's with the D.  ROR, Zemgus, Kane, and Gionta can do the job.  I'd like to see Eichel get more chances given his speed and long stick, but perhaps they don't want to tire him out.  Most of the goals are scored because the D isn't clearing out the slot, so the goalies are screened or the scorer's stick is left free to get a rebound or deflection.  And when they chase the puck in the corner or below the goal line and lose the battle, it allows the pass out to a shooter.

 

For 4th line, that's not the proper role for Moulson.  He's too slow and not physical enough, but his performance doesn't warrant top line minutes.  If it wasn't for his contract, I believe he would be sitting or waived.  DLo is a fine 4th liner, a physical forechecker who needs fast line mates to complement him.  Maybe try Tim Kennedy at C with DLo and Carrier.  He could also play the PK and 2nd PP if needed.

So, you are proposing we trade for Tim Kennedy?

[GASabresIUFAN]

So, you are proposing we trade for Tim Kennedy?

He is in Rochester already.

 

 

I think we have a real good fourth line in the making.

 

Carrier - Girgensons - Bailey

 

Speed and grit. With some finishing ability.

 

Do you really want two of best prospects playing on the 4th line in the NHL?  

[GASabresIUFAN]

I'm going to take back my above comment. I want the kids in thr NHL asap regardless of the line. However, GMTm needs to find them a center. With Grant and COR now gone and the news the Timmy is shopping for a center, I'm hopeful this might happen soon.

[tom webster]

I'm going to take back my above comment. I want the kids in thr NHL asap regardless of the line. However, GMTm needs to find them a center. With Grant and COR now gone and the news the Timmy is shopping for a center, I'm hopeful this might happen soon.

Nashville waives Grant.

 

Just saying.