Lehner is NOT a starter

[JJFIVEOH]

Coming into this year he was a 60% goalie. The league average is around 65%. 

 

Is this really about 5% and three games this year?

[JJFIVEOH]

I stand corrected. Lehner and Nilsson are top 7 goalies right now, not top 10. Ahead of Carey Price and three other Vezina winners.

[dudacek]

JJ I'm glad you're back.

Except for Huck it's been pretty lonely over here in Lehner's corner

[Norcal]

He looked like one last night. He's put together two good games in a row, i'm pullin for him.

[Weave]

I think Lehner is a starter.  I also think his style doesn't breed confidence, at least among the fanbase.  He does give up plenty of rebounds.  I'd like to see that fixed.

 

I also think we wouldn't criticize nearly as much if he showed better in shootouts since he's been here. 

 

Other than the shootout thing, I don't think he's hurting us right now.  And there are plenty of examples of average goalies with playoff success, so Lehner not being good enough is not a concern to me at all right now.  He's not sticking out as the problem on this team IMO.

[pi2000]

Players crash the net much harder in the playoffs. The most successful playoff goalies are those who absorb pucks and control rebounds. Until he fixes that, I have little confidence in his ability to lead us on a deep run in the playoffs.

 

Can he get us to the playoffs? Probably, but is that good enough?

[ParkMeadow]

Players crash the net much harder in the playoffs. The most successful playoff goalies are those who absorb pucks and control rebounds. Until he fixes that, I have little confidence in his ability to lead us on a deep run in the playoffs.

Can he get us to the playoffs? Probably, but is that good enough?

Agree with you about rebound control, but ain't nobody crashing his net hard and coming out with their nose and/or jewels intact!

[pi2000]

I stand corrected. Lehner and Nilsson are top 7 goalies right now, not top 10. Ahead of Carey Price and three other Vezina winners.

Are you just looking at sv%? That's nice but it doesn't tell the whole story. Vezina isn't just for sv%. Lehners save % is high because the Sabres give up a lot of shots from the outside... which any goalie should be stopping, so his stats are somewhat inflated when compared to top teams like MTL.

[JJFIVEOH]

Are you just looking at sv%? That's nice but it doesn't tell the whole story. Vezina isn't just for sv%. Lehners save % is high because the Sabres give up a lot of shots from the outside... which any goalie should be stopping, so his stats are somewhat inflated when compared to top teams like MTL.

 

I have to disagree, the Sabres routinely give up more shots from the slot on an almost nightly basis. 

 

I see your point, but regardless of how the shots come in, both Nilsson and Lehner are doing their jobs and doing it well. You don't tell people Ovechkin isn't as good as we think he is when he puts up 50+ goals a year, just because he's a power play specialist. 

 

So if being in the top seven in save percentage, but it's an inflated stat because of perimeter shots, and some significant criticism from the members on this board........... am I to assume that they would need to be in the top three to be playing at an acceptable level? 

 

I agree with some about the rebound control, although I don't think it's nearly as bad as some make it out to be................. but I just don't see how these guys can be performing any better especially when you consider what people think of their defense (on top of the injuries). 

 

This thread is about Lehner NOT being a starter. What exactly does he have to do to gain the acceptance of Sabres fans? Are we still holding it over his head, the three games he lost in shooutouts, the ones in which the Sabres scored exactly zero goals in support? 

JJ I'm glad you're back.

Except for Huck it's been pretty lonely over here in Lehner's corner

;)

 

I'm just trying to understand the logic behind the criticism. I'm not sure what Lehner needs to do for people to be happy. The Sabres didn't have a goaltender worthy of being a full time starter on the roster when Murray traded for Lehner. Of course it took a 1st rounder to get him, no team is going to trade a young goaltender, with potential, with a low cap hit for anything less. If Murray traded for one of the big names on the market it would have come with a cap hit and most likely would have prevented Murray from signing Okposo. 

[Norcal]

I have to disagree, the Sabres routinely give up more shots from the slot on an almost nightly basis.

 

I see your point, but regardless of how the shots come in, both Nilsson and Lehner are doing their jobs and doing it well. You don't tell people Ovechkin isn't as good as we think he is when he puts up 50+ goals a year, just because he's a power play specialist.

 

So if being in the top seven in save percentage, but it's an inflated stat because of perimeter shots, and some significant criticism from the members on this board........... am I to assume that they would need to be in the top three to be playing at an acceptable level?

 

I agree with some about the rebound control, although I don't think it's nearly as bad as some make it out to be................. but I just don't see how these guys can be performing any better especially when you consider what people think of their defense (on top of the injuries).

 

This thread is about Lehner NOT being a starter. What exactly does he have to do to gain the acceptance of Sabres fans? Are we still holding it over his head, the three games he lost in shooutouts, the ones in which the Sabres scored exactly zero goals in support?

 

;)

 

I'm just trying to understand the logic behind the criticism. I'm not sure what Lehner needs to do for people to be happy. The Sabres didn't have a goaltender worthy of being a full time starter on the roster when Murray traded for Lehner. Of course it took a 1st rounder to get him, no team is going to trade a young goaltender, with potential, with a low cap hit for anything less. If Murray traded for one of the big names on the market it would have come with a cap hit and most likely would have prevented Murray from signing Okposo.

your perspective is refreshing ????

[Trettioåtta]

For years people said Lundqvist played too deep in his net and wasn't aggressive enough. But he put up the numbers despite his unorthodox style. Eventually people accepted his play style and agreed he was a very good goalie.

 

Lehners dad was Lundqvists coach when he was developing in Sweden. He used to try out some unorthodox training/tactics on Lehner to see if they would work for Lundqvist. Maybe Robin found one that worked for him?

[pi2000]

For years people said Lundqvist played too deep in his net and wasn't aggressive enough. But he put up the numbers despite his unorthodox style. Eventually people accepted his play style and agreed he was a very good goalie.

 

Lehners dad was Lundqvists coach when he was developing in Sweden. He used to try out some unorthodox training/tactics on Lehner to see if they would work for Lundqvist. Maybe Robin found one that worked for him?

 

Interesting... did not know that.

 

 

I agree with some about the rebound control, although I don't think it's nearly as bad as some make it out to be................. but I just don't see how these guys can be performing any better especially when you consider what people think of their defense (on top of the injuries). 

 

 

There needs to be advanced goalie stats that track rebound%, avg rebound radius, and what % of rebounds are possessed by the opposing team.

[JJFIVEOH]

 

 

 

 

There needs to be advanced goalie stats that track rebound%, avg rebound radius, and what % of rebounds are possessed by the opposing team.

 

I'm sure there is, and if not, I'm sure there is an advanced statistician that will come up with a stat to make everybody look bad. 

 

But that fact remains, despite the majority agreement that the Sabres have a sub-par defense, despite the fact that the top six has lost 71 man/games, Lehner and Nilsson are both in the top 7 in save percentage, they have been in the top 5 all year overall and are probably the best bang for the buck duo in the league.

 

 You can dig as deep as you want to find a negligible stat to justify your dissatisfaction (or to support your theory that he's not good), it's just not going to negate the big picture.  ;)

[RonHextallsShoulderPads]

I'm sure there is, and if not, I'm sure there is an advanced statistician that will come up with a stat to make everybody look bad. 

 

But that fact remains, despite the majority agreement that the Sabres have a sub-par defense, despite the fact that the top six has lost 71 man/games, Lehner and Nilsson are both in the top 7 in save percentage, they have been in the top 5 all year overall and are probably the best bang for the buck duo in the league.

 

 You can dig as deep as you want to find a negligible stat to justify your dissatisfaction (or to support your theory that he's not good), it's just not going to negate the big picture.  ;)

You're right and what may upset many fans is the optics. there's something about how far lehner comes out of the net to challenge a shot. if you're that far out, you take away the angles, but you also have to swallow the puck. he, though, gives up big rebounds which leads to him (slowly) sliding back and crazy scrambles in front of the net for the puck. it doesn't seem like the best style for your young, oft-injured defense. 

Edited February 6, 2017 by RonHextallsShoulderPads

[Jsixspd]

Budaj got his 7th shutout of the season today.

 

Lehner has 4... in his career.

 

Just sayin.

Yeah, and Lehner wasn't playing in Buffalo lineups either in most of those seasons - all 3 of his previous shutouts came when he wasn't playing for the Sabres - this was his first as a Sabre.  

 

The lack of shutouts to me shows a lack of focus and concentration -  just like with Miller - Miller seemed unable to stay totally focused for a full 60 minutes - I will always remember Miller in the crease for Team USA against the Slovenia Olympic team- that  team only managed like 17 shots against Miller - the game was a blowout for Team USA and seemed like a mismatch but Miller let one of the Slovenians' few and far between shots in with 18 seconds left  because of that lack of razor sharp focus and concentration.  We laughed when we saw the goal.    I dunno if Miller was thinking he needed to call his wife after the game and ended up lost in thought, but  it became yet  another 1 goal "Miller Shut Out".  

 

 

Edited February 6, 2017 by Jsixspd

[Taro T]

Yeah, and Lehner wasn't playing in Buffalo lineups either in most of those seasons - all 3 of his previous shutouts came when he wasn't playing for the Sabres - this was his first as a Sabre.  

The lack of shutouts to me shows a lack of focus and concentration -  just like with Miller - Miller seemed unable to stay totally focused for a full 60 minutes - I will always remember Miller in the crease for Team USA against the Slovenia Olympic team- that  team only managed like 17 shots against Miller - the game was a blowout for Team USA and seemed like a mismatch but Miller let one of the Slovenians' few and far between shots in with 18 seconds left  because of that lack of razor sharp focus and concentration.  We laughed when we saw the goal.    I dunno if Miller was thinking he needed to call his wife after the game and ended up lost in thought, but  it became yet  another 1 goal "Miller Shut Out".

 

He had a SO last season. This was his 2nd as a Sabre.

[dudacek]

Lehner was traded for a high price.

He was injured when he arrived and injured throughout his first season.

He got terrible goal support to start this season and lost a lot of games because of it.

He has been abysmal in shootouts.

 

Only one of those things has anything to do with his performance, and that is only been an issue three times this year.

But they are all black marks that seem to stack the deck against him, and magnify his flaws, which are no worse than the flaws of 80 per cent of the goalies this year.

 

There has been very little conversation about his play the past two games.

But if we lose tonight, people will point their fingers, no matter how many saves he makes.

 

Did you know Lehner went over two months, 17 straight games, without letting in more than three goals in a game?

He was pulled after three in game 16, against Toronto, but I don't think that lessens my point.

 

He's given the team enough to win on a pretty consistent basis.

[Crusader1969]

Are you just looking at sv%? That's nice but it doesn't tell the whole story. Vezina isn't just for sv%. Lehners save % is high because the Sabres give up a lot of shots from the outside... which any goalie should be stopping, so his stats are somewhat inflated when compared to top teams like MTL.

 

 

I dont think this is right, I thought I saw that they are one of the worst in giving up shots in the slot or prime scoring areas.

Do you have a stat to show otherwise?

[JJFIVEOH]

Lehner was traded for a high price.

He was injured when he arrived and injured throughout his first season.

He got terrible goal support to start this season and lost a lot of games because of it.

He has been abysmal in shootouts.

 

Only one of those things has anything to do with his performance, and that is only been an issue three times this year.

But they are all black marks that seem to stack the deck against him, and magnify his flaws, which are no worse than the flaws of 80 per cent of the goalies this year.

 

There has been very little conversation about his play the past two games.

But if we lose tonight, people will point their fingers, no matter how many saves he makes.

 

Did you know Lehner went over two months, 17 straight games, without letting in more than three goals in a game?

He was pulled after three in game 16, against Toronto, but I don't think that lessens my point.

 

He's given the team enough to win on a pretty consistent basis.

 

Lehner knew it, he made sure to point it out to PHam one night after a game when PHam tried to criticize him for something. 

[pi2000]

Lehner knew it, he made sure to point it out to PHam one night after a game when PHam tried to criticize him for something.

Wow, so sensitive for a big guy.

 

 

You can dig as deep as you want to find a negligible stat to justify your dissatisfaction (or to support your theory that he's not good), it's just not going to negate the big picture. ;)

I don't think he sucks. I just don't think he has the qualities to be a successful goalie come playoff time.

[Doohicksie]

Let's hope we find out the answer to that one way or the other this season.  ;)

[matter2003]

I have to disagree, the Sabres routinely give up more shots from the slot on an almost nightly basis. 

 

I see your point, but regardless of how the shots come in, both Nilsson and Lehner are doing their jobs and doing it well. You don't tell people Ovechkin isn't as good as we think he is when he puts up 50+ goals a year, just because he's a power play specialist. 

 

So if being in the top seven in save percentage, but it's an inflated stat because of perimeter shots, and some significant criticism from the members on this board........... am I to assume that they would need to be in the top three to be playing at an acceptable level? 

 

I agree with some about the rebound control, although I don't think it's nearly as bad as some make it out to be................. but I just don't see how these guys can be performing any better especially when you consider what people think of their defense (on top of the injuries). 

 

This thread is about Lehner NOT being a starter. What exactly does he have to do to gain the acceptance of Sabres fans? Are we still holding it over his head, the three games he lost in shooutouts, the ones in which the Sabres scored exactly zero goals in support? 

;)

 

I'm just trying to understand the logic behind the criticism. I'm not sure what Lehner needs to do for people to be happy. The Sabres didn't have a goaltender worthy of being a full time starter on the roster when Murray traded for Lehner. Of course it took a 1st rounder to get him, no team is going to trade a young goaltender, with potential, with a low cap hit for anything less. If Murray traded for one of the big names on the market it would have come with a cap hit and most likely would have prevented Murray from signing Okposo. 

 

The Sabres give up so many wide open shots from the slot and to the 3rd main trailing I often wonder if the coaches even work on it.  I know they must but it's ridiculous...the same play over and over and over again.  Guys wide open in the slot for one timers or guys cruising down the slot as the 3rd man in for great scoring chances...

[JujuFish]

I'm sure there is, and if not, I'm sure there is an advanced statistician that will come up with a stat to make everybody look bad. 

 

But that fact remains, despite the majority agreement that the Sabres have a sub-par defense, despite the fact that the top six has lost 71 man/games, Lehner and Nilsson are both in the top 7 in save percentage, they have been in the top 5 all year overall and are probably the best bang for the buck duo in the league.

 

 You can dig as deep as you want to find a negligible stat to justify your dissatisfaction (or to support your theory that he's not good), it's just not going to negate the big picture.  ;)

 

For what it's worth, Nilsson is 10th and Lehner 11th in save percentage among goalies with at least 10 appearances.  That's arguably a minor nitpick though, and I agree with your general disposition about our goalie situation.

[Samson's Flow]

He certainly looks like a good starter last game (Ottawa) and tonight (NJ). Something has clicked with him the last week or so

[nfreeman]

I think Lehner is a legit NHL #1, but rebound control just continues to be a major issue. The GWG goal tonight was a prime example. He effectively batted the puck -- with his catcher! -- right into the near slot, where a NJD happily jumped on it and popped it in. Just a terrible piece of goaltending.