Did the Sabres stop the "tank" too soon?

[Scottysabres]

TM embraced it though. And then he made a bunch of trades to build a truly awful team around Jack Eichel.

The Tank worked. We got our franchise player. The trouble is, we also got a GM that doesn't know what to do next. And here we are.

No. He does know what to do next........prepare for more suffering. :)

 

The only significant move i can see Tim Murray making is with Anaheim. They are going to have to move 1 defenceman for a forward to maximize their expansion draft protection.

My money is on Fowler for Kane. The trade for both parties makes to much sense.

[nfreeman]

TM embraced it though. And then he made a bunch of trades to build a truly awful team around Jack Eichel.

 

The Tank worked. We got our franchise player. The trouble is, we also got a GM that doesn't know what to do next. And here we are.

 

Well, I'm not sure GMTM embraced it -- I see it more as "we're already in this poopstorm, let's ride it out and get Eichel or, if we're really lucky, McD" -- but that is certainly a reasonable take on it.

 

I assume you mean the trades were unintentionally awful.

 

As for whether it worked -- serious question:  do you think Eichel is a good enough player to justify the tank?  I do not.  I think only a truly generational talent -- like McD or Crosby -- is worth it.

[qwksndmonster]

ridiculous poll

For real. The team should've been better than they were last year. I was able to live with it because we were brutally, historically bad the year before. To be missing the playoffs this year is an abomination.

[TXSabresFan]

I know that a poor end to the rest of the season would be tough to watch. BUT... I do think the potential of acquiring a top 2 pick would be a real positive. The idea of possibly adding Hischier gives so much more to look forward to for the future. My philosophy is, if you're gonna miss the playoffs and have a crappy year you might as well make it count. Missing the playoffs at the end of this season would be made worse if they wound up with a pick around 8-10. Picking in the top 3 at least gives some more hope. Just my thoughts on it

[Crusader1969]

I think the Sabres are right on course, they are probably in playoff contention without injuries but I never thought they would make playoffs even t full strength.

I love that Murray is being patient but he still has important moves to make coming up in the next 6 weeks.

 

I'm not sure what to expect next year because I expect them to be very young and inexperienced but the years that follow I'm extremely optimistic that they will become the Sabres glory years.

I know that a poor end to the rest of the season would be tough to watch. BUT... I do think the potential of acquiring a top 2 pick would be a real positive. The idea of possibly adding Hischier gives so much more to look forward to for the future. My philosophy is, if you're gonna miss the playoffs and have a crappy year you might as well make it count. Missing the playoffs at the end of this season would be made worse if they wound up with a pick around 8-10. Picking in the top 3 at least gives some more hope. Just my thoughts on it

Got to be lucky to get in top 3. The draft seems to be at least 12 players deep, so they will get another key "piece" no matter where they draft.

Well, I'm not sure GMTM embraced it -- I see it more as "we're already in this poopstorm, let's ride it out and get Eichel or, if we're really lucky, McD" -- but that is certainly a reasonable take on it.

 

I assume you mean the trades were unintentionally awful.

 

As for whether it worked -- serious question:  do you think Eichel is a good enough player to justify the tank?  I do not.  I think only a truly generational talent -- like McD or Crosby -- is worth it.

Totally disagree, the Sabres have been around for close to 50 years and way too much of it was spent in mediocrity.

Don't think the Blackhawks are complaining they got Toews and Kane from basically doing the same thing.

TM embraced it though. And then he made a bunch of trades to build a truly awful team around Jack Eichel.

The Tank worked. We got our franchise player. The trouble is, we also got a GM that doesn't know what to do next. And here we are.

Pretty sure he knows exactly what he is doing- Being patient

[Robviously]

Pretty sure he knows exactly what he is doing- Being patient

He's patient??? He made a ton of moves the past 2 years. He traded prospects and picks as fast as he could for guys like Lehner, Kane, Bogo, Deslauriers, Fasching, etc, and signed Moulson and Franson. He wanted a fast turnaround. Instead, it looks like he set us back further.

 

Patient would be waiting to make only the right moves, not overpaying for any shiny object that catches your eye.

[Stoner]

He's patient??? He made a ton of moves the past 2 years. He traded prospects and picks as fast as he could for guys like Lehner, Kane, Bogo, Deslauriers, Fasching, etc, and signed Moulson and Franson. He wanted a fast turnaround. Instead, it looks like he set us back further.

 

Patient would be waiting to make only the right moves, not overpaying for any shiny object that catches your eye.

Food for thought: were the moves Pegula 2.0?

[GASabresIUFAN]

Just a thought, did they ever really stop the tank?  We have drafted 8th, 2nd, 2nd, & 8th in the last 4 years and are destined to draft in the top 5 this season.  

Edited January 19, 2017 by GASabresIUFAN

[nfreeman]

Totally disagree, the Sabres have been around for close to 50 years and way too much of it was spent in mediocrity.

Don't think the Blackhawks are complaining they got Toews and Kane from basically doing the same thing.

 

 

Do you think Eichel and Reino are as good as Kane and Toews?  I do not.

 

Also -- Chicago didn't tank -- they just stunk for a generation.

[TrueBlueGED]

Do you think Eichel and Reino are as good as Kane and Toews? I do not.

 

Also -- Chicago didn't tank -- they just stunk for a generation.

At the moment? No. But I think they're as good as Kane was at 20 and Toews at 21, respectively.

[nfreeman]

At the moment? No. But I think they're as good as Kane was at 20 and Toews at 21, respectively.

 

No. 

 

When Toews was 20 (not 21), he was named captain of the Hawks (before his 2nd NHL season), then put up 34-35-69 (plus 51 PIM) and led the Hawks to the playoffs for the 1st time in 6 years (which was the 2nd time in 11 years).  The Hawks made the conference finals that year and Toews had 13 pts (7 goals) in 17 playoff games.

 

When Kane was 20, he put up 25-45-70 in the regular season -- comparable to Eichel -- and then 9-5-14 in 16 playoff games.

 

If the Sabres are very lucky, Eichel will be in the same ballpark as Kane.

 

I don't see Reino approaching Toews' production or leadership.

[woods-racer]

Do you think Eichel and Reino are as good as Kane and Toews?  I do not.

 

Also -- Chicago didn't tank -- they just stunk for a generation.

 

 

At the moment? No. But I think they're as good as Kane was at 20 and Toews at 21, respectively.

 

No. 

 

When Toews was 20 (not 21), he was named captain of the Hawks (before his 2nd NHL season), then put up 34-35-69 (plus 51 PIM) and led the Hawks to the playoffs for the 1st time in 6 years (which was the 2nd time in 11 years).  The Hawks made the conference finals that year and Toews had 13 pts (7 goals) in 17 playoff games.

 

When Kane was 20, he put up 25-45-70 in the regular season -- comparable to Eichel -- and then 9-5-14 in 16 playoff games.

 

If the Sabres are very lucky, Eichel will be in the same ballpark as Kane.

 

I don't see Reino approaching Toews' production or leadership.

 

 

You have only made True's post look better with the second of your posts. They had all the pieces in the minors for years waiting for Toews and Kane. It was a generation of suffering that exploded with winning once the final 2 pieces where put in place, that only came into place by sucking the best a team could suck for 2 years. AKA tanking.

 

The Sabres are running the polar opposite *tank* style. Quick, and the pieces are up front. And by quick,I mean 5 years, cause we know it won't be three. But it also wont be for a generation.

[North Buffalo]

You have only made True's post look better with the second of your posts. They had all the pieces in the minors for years waiting for Toews and Kane. It was a generation of suffering that exploded with winning once the final 2 pieces where put in place, that only came into place by sucking the best a team could suck for 2 years. AKA tanking.

 

The Sabres are running the polar opposite *tank* style. Quick, and the pieces are up front. And by quick,I mean 5 years, cause we know it won't be three. But it also wont be for a generation.

So just one more year of tank? Im guessing two, but it depends... if Sabres receive a top 3... or draft a top scorer and sign/ trade for a top 4 D or vice versa. Someone who can skate next year... Combine that with Nylander and another young D stepping up, would be probably end the tank after this year. Short of that it could take another year in the bottom.

[Mustache of God]

If the Sabres somehow luck into a lottery pick or draft top 3, would you rather GMTM trade that pick for a more established young D stud/top 6 speedy winger or would you rather draft the pick and wait for it to develop?

[North Buffalo]

If the Sabres somehow luck into a lottery pick or draft top 3, would you rather GMTM trade that pick for a more established young D stud/top 6 speedy winger or would you rather draft the pick and wait for it to develop?

If top three draft a scorer or trade pick for a stud D. Either though stud D greater need with Nylander and Pu in the system and possible later round possibilities coming up on O.

 

Though if #1 Nolan foget about it. Trade Bogo, Kane and Kuli for a stud D and retain salary.

Edited January 19, 2017 by North Buffalo

[Randall Flagg]

No. 

 

When Toews was 20 (not 21), he was named captain of the Hawks (before his 2nd NHL season), then put up 34-35-69 (plus 51 PIM) and led the Hawks to the playoffs for the 1st time in 6 years (which was the 2nd time in 11 years).  The Hawks made the conference finals that year and Toews had 13 pts (7 goals) in 17 playoff games.

 

When Kane was 20, he put up 25-45-70 in the regular season -- comparable to Eichel -- and then 9-5-14 in 16 playoff games.

 

If the Sabres are very lucky, Eichel will be in the same ballpark as Kane.

 

I don't see Reino approaching Toews' production or leadership.

Reinhart won't match what Toews did before, like, 22. 

 

But he's outscoring Toews this very season. Toews is tremendously overrated and Reinhart will likely have similar impact. Jack can hit Kane's level and scored more goals than Kane did in his first 100 games of his career in an era with substantially lower scoring across the board.

Edited January 19, 2017 by Randall Flagg

[RonHextallsShoulderPads]

I say we stopped tanking at the right point.  

 

We had (15) 1-goal games/shutouts this year so far! That's horrendous. But, as the season has progressed, they've started to correct course a bit. No 1-goal/shutout games in Jan with a 4-3-1 record for the month. It's a small improvement, but a step in the right direction. I think growth from the young guys, a few more defensive pieces in place, and a more player friendly coaching scheme will provide a huge boost. Just not this year.

 

I didn't expect to go from tank to contender is one season. That's unrealistic. It's undeniable that they are entertaining this year. That they can hang with good teams. That they are experiencing growing pains. That they need to learn to play three periods and close games out. That they are hungry to win now.

 

I'll take that mixed bag as a step in the process, not in regret that we don't have one or two more descent prospects that may or may not pan out down the road. Eventually you have to go with the guys you've got and move forward. 

[nfreeman]

Reinhart won't match what Toews did before, like, 22. 

 

But he's outscoring Toews this very season. Toews is tremendously overrated and Reinhart will likely have similar impact. Jack can hit Kane's level and scored more goals than Kane did in his first 100 games of his career in an era with substantially lower scoring across the board.

 

I posted the numbers on Toews' production at age 20 in response to TB's assertion that Reino's production at age 21 was comparable to Toews'.  It isn't.

 

As for outscoring Toews this season:  if the NHL were folding after this season, and you were GMTM, would you trade Reino for Toews?  I certainly would.

 

As for the bolded:  perhaps Toews' production this year doesn't live up to his career standards, but he's had a fantastic career.  Reino is a nice player, but "impact" isn't something I associate with his game -- and to think his career will hold a candle to Toews' is wildly optimistic.

[Thorner]

Reinhart won't match what Toews did before, like, 22. 

But he's outscoring Toews this very season. Toews is tremendously overrated and Reinhart will likely have similar impact. Jack can hit Kane's level and scored more goals than Kane did in his first 100 games of his career in an era with substantially lower scoring across the board.

Right. Reinhart's early career numbers won't match Toews'. But given Reinhart's upward trend, and Toews' downward slide, I'd be surprised if Reinhart's numbers at 28 (that's how old Toews is now) aren't better than Toews at the same age.

 

Toews is 28 years old and should still be near the top of his game. If Reinhart, at 21, is outscoing Toews in both goals and assists, I'm pretty comfortable with Sam.

 

The sad thing for us is that Toews was able to accomplish so much so young, and that's not something we are going to see from Reinhart. The Blackhawks achieved so much when their stars were on ELCs, something it doesn't look like we'll able to achieve.

[Randall Flagg]

I posted the numbers on Toews' production at age 20 in response to TB's assertion that Reino's production at age 21 was comparable to Toews'.  It isn't.

 

As for outscoring Toews this season:  if the NHL were folding after this season, and you were GMTM, would you trade Reino for Toews?  I certainly would.

 

As for the bolded:  perhaps Toews' production this year doesn't live up to his career standards, but he's had a fantastic career.  Reino is a nice player, but "impact" isn't something I associate with his game -- and to think his career will hold a candle to Toews' is wildly optimistic.

Toews is a 60 point very good two way center. I believe Reinhart will become this. What the real question is, is will Reinhart ever be the 3rd or 4th best player on a team that wins 3 cups like Toews was. Toews' early teams that won the first cup or two were absolutely loaded, with talent and one of the best coaches in the business. Toews had 50 something and then 60 something points his first two years in that situation, Samson, on this team with this coach, paces for roughly ten points fewer each year, though he's been at about a point per game pace for the last 22 games or so. The situations each of these players came into are not even in the same universe, and Toews has been less than stellar the past three years as cap crunches have limited their ability to field by far the best roster the NHL has seen in the cap era.  

 

I would trade for Toews too, but lucky for us the NHL has no plans to fold after this season. I was pointing out that I'm not worried about Reinhart's production long term - I expect it to be similar to Toews', and the fact that at 21 he's outscoring a Toews that is only 28 should excite us. Toews obviously peaked very early and has been on a steady three or four year decline. Reinhart seems like he's starting lower, and I'd bet he has a much better 26-28 year old period, though only time will tell. 

 

Toews is absolutely a good player. But he's been ridiculously insulated his whole career until recently, when  the past three years have shown us what he actually is. It's not his fault that he got voted into the All Star game this season for some reason, or that THN keeps ranking him a top 5 or even top 2 player in the world for some reason.

 

Samson is a similarly skilled and talented player.

 

Then again, you and others probably think I'm nuts when I say that ROR, if his age was properly adjusted as to be the same age Toews was on each of those teams, would have given the Hawks the same result. 25 year old ROR is just as good as 25 year old Toews was, he's just playing for Disco Dan Bylsma and the Buffalo Sabres.

Right. Reinhart's early career numbers won't match Toews'. But given Reinhart's upward trend, and Toews' downward slide, I'd be surprised if Reinhart's numbers at 28 (that's how old Toews is now) aren't better than Toews at the same age.

 

Toews is 28 years old and should still be near the top of his game. If Reinhart, at 21, is outscoing Toews in both goals and assists, I'm pretty comfortable with Sam.

 

The sad thing for us is that Toews was able to accomplish so much so young, and that's not something we are going to see from Reinhart. The Blackhawks achieved so much when their stars were on ELCs, something it doesn't look like we'll able to achieve.

And I think it's wrong to use this as a piece of evidence against Jack & Sam - if you give 19 and 88 this Sabres team for their ELCs, they don't win playoff series at all. I cannot stress enough how skilled and deep and well-coached that 09-10 Hawks team was. Dustin freaking Byfuglien and Andrew Ladd played on their 3rd/4th lines.

[Thorner]

I agree, but I was more commenting on the fact that due to their low salaries, being on ELCs, they had the space to surround them with the talent you speak of.

[Randall Flagg]

Plus those Keith/Hossa deals that are no longer possible.

[Crusader1969]

He's patient??? He made a ton of moves the past 2 years. He traded prospects and picks as fast as he could for guys like Lehner, Kane, Bogo, Deslauriers, Fasching, etc, and signed Moulson and Franson. He wanted a fast turnaround. Instead, it looks like he set us back further.

Patient would be waiting to make only the right moves, not overpaying for any shiny object that catches your eye.

I'm sorry but Fasching is still a prospect. Who are your etc? O'Reilly? You think trading for Kane was trading for a shiny new object? Or maybe just the right move to ensure the tank was successful.

No. 

 

When Toews was 20 (not 21), he was named captain of the Hawks (before his 2nd NHL season), then put up 34-35-69 (plus 51 PIM) and led the Hawks to the playoffs for the 1st time in 6 years (which was the 2nd time in 11 years).  The Hawks made the conference finals that year and Toews had 13 pts (7 goals) in 17 playoff games.

 

When Kane was 20, he put up 25-45-70 in the regular season -- comparable to Eichel -- and then 9-5-14 in 16 playoff games.

 

If the Sabres are very lucky, Eichel will be in the same ballpark as Kane.

 

I don't see Reino approaching Toews' production or leadership.

 

So you admit getting elite talent at the top of the draft is important?

[nfreeman]

So you admit getting elite talent at the top of the draft is important?

 

No.  I "admit" that the rare team that is fortunate enough to land transformational players at the top of the draft (or elsewhere) benefits greatly from doing so.

 

That is substantially different from the position that a team is likely to become a contender by tanking in order to draft high.  In most cases, teams that bottom out stay lousy for a long time.  That unavoidable reality is why I and many others opposed the tank.

 

The Sabres have drafted, in the last 4 years, #8, #2, #2, #8, and will probably be around #5 this year.  Do you think they will make the playoffs next year?  If they don't, that's a solid 8 years (at a minimum) with no playoffs.

Toews is a 60 point very good two way center. I believe Reinhart will become this. What the real question is, is will Reinhart ever be the 3rd or 4th best player on a team that wins 3 cups like Toews was. Toews' early teams that won the first cup or two were absolutely loaded, with talent and one of the best coaches in the business. Toews had 50 something and then 60 something points his first two years in that situation, Samson, on this team with this coach, paces for roughly ten points fewer each year, though he's been at about a point per game pace for the last 22 games or so. The situations each of these players came into are not even in the same universe, and Toews has been less than stellar the past three years as cap crunches have limited their ability to field by far the best roster the NHL has seen in the cap era.  

 

I would trade for Toews too, but lucky for us the NHL has no plans to fold after this season. I was pointing out that I'm not worried about Reinhart's production long term - I expect it to be similar to Toews', and the fact that at 21 he's outscoring a Toews that is only 28 should excite us. Toews obviously peaked very early and has been on a steady three or four year decline. Reinhart seems like he's starting lower, and I'd bet he has a much better 26-28 year old period, though only time will tell. 

 

Toews is absolutely a good player. But he's been ridiculously insulated his whole career until recently, when  the past three years have shown us what he actually is. It's not his fault that he got voted into the All Star game this season for some reason, or that THN keeps ranking him a top 5 or even top 2 player in the world for some reason.

 

Samson is a similarly skilled and talented player.

 

Then again, you and others probably think I'm nuts when I say that ROR, if his age was properly adjusted as to be the same age Toews was on each of those teams, would have given the Hawks the same result. 25 year old ROR is just as good as 25 year old Toews was, he's just playing for Disco Dan Bylsma and the Buffalo Sabres.

And I think it's wrong to use this as a piece of evidence against Jack & Sam - if you give 19 and 88 this Sabres team for their ELCs, they don't win playoff series at all. I cannot stress enough how skilled and deep and well-coached that 09-10 Hawks team was. Dustin freaking Byfuglien and Andrew Ladd played on their 3rd/4th lines.

 

It's not just numbers.  This isn't fantasy hockey.  Derek Roy put up numbers too.  Toews is a leader.  He raises the level of play of those around him.  He's also a very clutch player -- Conn Smythe winner, led Canadian Olympic team in scoring, scored in the gold-medal game, etc.

 

And while his scoring is down this year, I think it's an exaggeration to say that it's been in decline for 3 years.  He's had 28 goals per year for the last 3 years prior to this one, plus 17 pts in 19 playoff games, then 21 pts in 23 playoff games, then 6 pts in 7 playoff games -- all during a period of increasing offensive constipation league-wide.

[Randall Flagg]

 

 

It's not just numbers.  This isn't fantasy hockey.  Derek Roy put up numbers too.  Toews is a leader.  He raises the level of play of those around him.  He's also a very clutch player -- Conn Smythe winner, led Canadian Olympic team in scoring, scored in the gold-medal game, etc.

 

And while his scoring is down this year, I think it's an exaggeration to say that it's been in decline for 3 years.  He's had 28 goals per year for the last 3 years prior to this one, plus 17 pts in 19 playoff games, then 21 pts in 23 playoff games, then 6 pts in 7 playoff games -- all during a period of increasing offensive constipation league-wide.

So this is one of those debates - I'm one of those guys that doesn't believe in "clutch" and believes that one of the best two way wingers of all time, and guys like Duncan Keith and Ladd and other vets they've added at different points, have their leadership abilities ignored/transferred to Toews because he has a "C" sewn on his shirt, even though it is commonly stated that the "C" in hockey doesn't mean nearly as much in a locker room as it does to us fans and general media discussion. He's a good captain, so are a lot of other captains. How do you measure his captain abilities and leadership relative to another captain, Benn, Pavelski, Backes, Koivu? Does he captain the stars to the cup instead of a second round loss last season in place of Benn? I think he'd have made them worse, because he's worse than Benn at hockey. None of those Chicago cup teams were willed to victory by Toews, hoisted on his back. He was certainly integral, but Kane/Hossa/Sharp/Keith/Seabrook/Crawford have all played roles as large or larger in those runs. 

 

Well there has been a decline from when he was putting up 70 (that one time) to now where he fluctuates between being the 150th and 170th highest scoring NHL player (with some possession stats below 50% now, perhaps indicating defensive ability decline - or rather, the decline in ability of one of the all time great two way wingers that has been stapled to him his entire career). Something is up with Toews, but I honestly believe it's just the team transitioning from "dynasty" to "very good" and us realizing what Toews actually brings to the table, pretty good hockey, indistinguishable from Kopitar/Bergeron when they're at their heights. A place he should be proud to be, and much much lower than where he's put by so many people.