GMTM: Problem solver or Problem creator?

[Robviously]

Murray traded away a ton of prospects and picks in the last 2+ years and all we have to show for it now is a slow bottom-5 team saddled with some bad contracts that are basically untradeable now.  His supposed strength was that he was a draft guru in Anaheim and Ottawa but he traded away 2 first round picks and 1 second round pick in the 2015 draft (which will probably go down as basically being a legendary draft).  Should we go over the list of players from that draft that we could have instead of the mediocre goalie we acquired?

 

Drafting Jack Eichel was probably enough to get us from 30th place to 27th place by itself.  So basically Murray hasn't accomplished anything aside from finishing the Tank that Darcy started.

 

Most of this board could have done a better job. 

[Iron Crotch]

 

Defense: Guhle (2nd round), Borgen (4th), Fitzgerald (3rd).

 

Smaller fast skilled forwards: Nylander (1st), Asplund (2nd), Pu (3rd), Karabacek (4th).

 

Every team in the league can list several names of guys in their system who might be promising. Until they show it consistently at the NHL level, they're just names. GMTM needs these guys to "hit" before he gets credit for drafting anything more than a bunch of AHLers.

[Two or less]

I'm still a strong believer in Murray. I think it's a process and like it or not but injuries have really made this season tough for them.

 

I was listening to NHL radio on Sirius last week and Columbus GM Jarmo Kekalainen was on and he was asked what is the secret to their success and he said its simple, health. He went on to say that this business it's tough because when it happens to you, and you say that, everyone jumps all over you, but it is the reality.

 

Only issue i have, and i doubt it would change much, but i wish we wouldn't have AHLers still in the lineup at this point of the season. I understand early in the season, they wanted to give guys chances such as Fasching, Carrier, Bailey and Baptiste, and it wouldn't show well that they go out and get guys to fill in spots and keep these guys in the AHL, but even after Johan Larsson went down and it was obvious some of these guys are just not ready yet, i wish we couldve used some late round picks or use some mid-level prospects and get some NHL caliber 3rd or 4th liner here to help give them a spark.

[Peter]

I don't post over here a lot, but my issue with GMTM is that, when we had a lot of "assets," he overpaid (in my judgment).  For example, I still do not understand giving Ottawa a first for what was their back up goalie when they were in a complete bind under the salary cap.  If we were going to trade that first round pick, I would have preferred trading it (rather than Zadorov) in the ROR deal. I am pretty confident that we could have had Lehner for a second - especially given that we took on salary.  We ended up doing Uncle Brian a huge favor.

 

Now that we have given up a lot of the extra assets that we had, GMTM will be forced not to be the drunken sailor.  It will be interesting to see how he does without being flush with picks etc.

Edited January 18, 2017 by Peter

[Radar]

I don't post over here a lot, but my issue with GMTM is that, when we had a lot of "assets," he overpaid (in my judgment).  For example, I still do not understand giving Ottawa a first for what was their back up goalie when they were in a complete bind under the salary cap.  If we were going to trade that first round pick, I would have preferred trading it (rather than Zadorov) in the ROR deal. I am pretty confident that we could have had Lehner for a second - especially given that we took on salary.  We ended up doing Uncle Brian a huge favor.

 

Now that we have given up a lot of the extra assets that we had, GMTM will be forced not to be the drunken sailor.  It will be interesting to see how he does without being flush with picks etc.

At this time your assessment looks accurate. Lehner has definitely had rough spots, particularly in shootouts. Our goaltending wasn't all that strong to begin with and Lehner, to me , at the time sounded like a risk no greater than the risk of whoever we would have taken with the twenty first pick. We'll see but there is certainly room to question. The rest of Murray's moves I have no problem with. No GM on ny team ever bats 1000.

[GASabresIUFAN]

http://buffalonews.com/2017/01/17/mike-harrington-sabres-getting-left-dust-leafs-rebuild/   I think Harrington got it right.  Speed kills and we need DD to open up the offense.  The problem is the D is so bad that he is afraid to try it.

 

Time to start moving out the vets and get the kids here full time including Guhle.  We just our fanny's waxed by a superior Leafs team.  Yuck!

Edited January 18, 2017 by GASabresIUFAN

[Scottysabres]

It was clear from the outset Connor McDavid was the target Tim Murray was looking to rebuild around. That didn't happen. The draft before that was a weaker class but I believe Buffalo got the best offensive player available in Reinhart.

Eichel is a different story however. Great talent, he should mature in to a nice piece.

 

Okposo and O'Reilly are excellent top 6 pieces. They are missing 2 top 6 LW'ers and 4 defensemen. That's on Murray.

 

The goalie......straight out, Lehner sucks. His softies deflate a team trying to build a winning culture. Last bight was a prime example of this.

Murray gave a 1st for this clown and there were at least 2 good players available at 21 overall, Colin White and Travis Konecny. Either of those players would have added depth to the pipeline.

And what did Murray get for that pick. A cap dump of David Legwand and the sub par goalie we now have, Robin Lehner.

 

I firmly believe Tim likes Lehner, but I also firmly believe he threw his uncle one hell of a bone.

 

Lehner is not the answer in net for us. That trade was just bad, no other way to put it.

[pastajoe]

Every team in the league can list several names of guys in their system who might be promising. Until they show it consistently at the NHL level, they're just names. GMTM needs these guys to "hit" before he gets credit for drafting anything more than a bunch of AHLers.

 

You said "GMTM built (is building) a "heavy" team when the rest of the league is going to small, fast, and skilled. "   I listed the players he's recently drafted that are small, fast , and skilled.  The key word is "building", which is still a work in progress. William Nylander spent 2 years in the AHL. Nazem Kadri 3 years. Many of the young Leafs people are admiring have spent time in the AHL.

[nfreeman]

It was clear from the outset Connor McDavid was the target Tim Murray was looking to rebuild around. That didn't happen. The draft before that was a weaker class but I believe Buffalo got the best offensive player available in Reinhart.

Eichel is a different story however. Great talent, he should mature in to a nice piece.

 

 

If GMTM's plan relied on winning a lottery that he had a 1-in-5 chance to win, then he is a blithering incompetent.

 

I don't think he planned on getting McD.

 

I do think he thought the team would be further along than they are now -- although last week on WGR he emphasized the effect of the injuries on the team's performance this year.

 

That concerns me, because they are pretty much fully healthy now and they still stink.

[Scottysabres]

If GMTM's plan relied on winning a lottery that he had a 1-in-5 chance to win, then he is a blithering incompetent.

 

I don't think he planned on getting McD.

 

I do think he thought the team would be further along than they are now -- although last week on WGR he emphasized the effect of the injuries on the team's performance this year.

 

That concerns me, because they are pretty much fully healthy now and they still stink.

Given the comments pre-draft on Connor by Murray combined with show casing him in a couple of games at the arena, I'll agree to disagree with you on that one.

 

As for your concerns on your other point, very valid. I didn't expect playoffs, but given the past 2 seasons it's clear regression has set in, injuries or not.

 

There is a very real culture problem in Sabreland right now. The players, management and ownership are establishing a losing culture and that falls squarely on the GM. He made the personnel decisions we see behind the bench and on the ice. And while I understand Terry Pegula was a part of the process, he hired Tim Murray as GM, which in that position is most certainly an advisor on hockey personnel decisions and made those decisions.

 

Murray's plan to build "his team" and is on full display. Call me unimpressed with his hockey prowess.

[Iron Crotch]

Given the comments pre-draft on Connor by Murray combined with show casing him in a couple of games at the arena, I'll agree to disagree with you on that one.

 

As for your concerns on your other point, very valid. I didn't expect playoffs, but given the past 2 seasons it's clear regression has set in, injuries or not.

 

There is a very real culture problem in Sabreland right now. The players, management and ownership are establishing a losing culture and that falls squarely on the GM. He made the personnel decisions we see behind the bench and on the ice. And while I understand Terry Pegula was a part of the process, he hired Tim Murray as GM, which in that position is most certainly an advisor on hockey personnel decisions and made those decisions.

 

Murray's plan to build "his team" and is on full display. Call me unimpressed with his hockey prowess.

 

Keep posting. :thumbsup:

 

Not sure if I ever mentioned it on this board, but when I was talking to Goose a couple of years ago (I used to see him at the dog park) he said that he didn't think GMTM was the best option for the Sabres and that the guy in Pittsburgh (Jason Botterill) would have been a better hire.

[Taro T]

Keep posting. :thumbsup:

 

Not sure if I ever mentioned it on this board, but when I was talking to Goose a couple of years ago (I used to see him at the dog park) he said that he didn't think GMTM was the best option for the Sabres and that the guy in Pittsburgh (Jason Botterill) would have been a better hire.

While, if Botteril gets a shot as a GM down the road, he could turn out to be better than Murray; one shouldn't discount Gaustad's friendship w/ Botteril from his analysis / opinion.

[PotentPowerPlay22]

In ten years time you will be able to look back and analyze the deals and drafts that were made by Tim Murray, but nobody ever does that. In the meantime, the only objective way to evaluate his work is to look at the records of the teams he is responsible for. He has control over the personnel and head coaches for the Sabres and Amerks. What have they accomplished under Murray?

 

At this point, his record is clearly incomplete, but the results have been shaky at best. I have always felt that he overpaid in virtually every trade he has made so far. It can be argued that a couple of his deals have strengthened the team in the short term. The bottom line is that both the Sabres and the Amerks are still irrelevant.

 

I believe there is not enough talent in the organization and several of his deals depleted the talent pool. I think it is fair to measure a GM by tangible objective results in the standings. As such, this GM has not produced much considering the stockpile of assets he inherited on his arrival. 

 

Time will tell, but he still has a long way to go to prove he is a quality GM.

[Lanny]

I don't post over here a lot, but my issue with GMTM is that, when we had a lot of "assets," he overpaid (in my judgment).  For example, I still do not understand giving Ottawa a first for what was their back up goalie when they were in a complete bind under the salary cap.  If we were going to trade that first round pick, I would have preferred trading it (rather than Zadorov) in the ROR deal. I am pretty confident that we could have had Lehner for a second - especially given that we took on salary.  We ended up doing Uncle Brian a huge favor.

 

Now that we have given up a lot of the extra assets that we had, GMTM will be forced not to be the drunken sailor.  It will be interesting to see how he does without being flush with picks etc.

It seemed like alot at the time, and while I feel Lehner is a decent goalie he hasn't done enough to warrant the high price. Contract/Free Agency status was a part of his value however. I also can't believe the price was paid because his Uncle was the opposing GM.

 

Ottawa had 3 goalies at the time and had to deal one, perhaps the other two being available leveraged Tim into paying the steep price to make them part with Lehner. Take it or leave it kind of offer. 

[zow2]

I've definitely soured on TM.  I was really hoping he would do great things here.  It's not his fault they didn't get the McDavid ping pong ball, but the team assembled right now isn't very good.  We still lack puck possession and look slow compared to the opponents.  I don't see playoffs happening in the next few years unless some huge changes/additions are made.

[pastajoe]

If the Sabres are out of the playoff hunt by the draft deadline, or even if they have a long shot, I would rather they become sellers and see if they can move some of the veterans to playoff teams (Franson, Gorges, Gionta, Ennis, Moulson (might have to retain salary)) for prospects or draft picks, and let the younger players finish the season in Buffalo (Nelson, Bailey, Baptiste, Fasching, and/or Nylander).  Make ROR the new captain.  Then next year they add in Guhle, and either trade for or sign another decent 5-6 D.  Watching the games, I think the biggest consistent problem is the bottom 4 D losing puck battles in the D zone and not breaking out quickly.

 

So I have to give it another year before I change my mind on GMTM.

[GASabresIUFAN]

It seemed like alot at the time, and while I feel Lehner is a decent goalie he hasn't done enough to warrant the high price. Contract/Free Agency status was a part of his value however. I also can't believe the price was paid because his Uncle was the opposing GM.

 

Ottawa had 3 goalies at the time and had to deal one, perhaps the other two being available leveraged Tim into paying the steep price to make them part with Lehner. Take it or leave it kind of offer. 

How?  GMTM knew his uncle had to trade one of his goalies. Hamburgler had just lead them to the playoffs, thus he wasn't on the market and Anderson has injury issues (as did Lehner)  That should have given GMTM the leverage.  Instead Uncle Bryan knew Tim was fixated on Lehner (despite injury issues) and used that against him.   GMTM should have been flexible enough to be able to say no.  We already had Ullmark and Petersen drafted and Chad Johnson under contract when GMTM acquired Lehner.  Tim should have said no on the deal, then inquired about one of the other 2 goalies or moved on. Cam Talbot was also on the market amongst others.  Granted hindsight is 20/20 but maybe he should have just gotten someone to split time with Chad and let the chip fall where they might,  We weren't going to make the playoffs last year, so were we really desperate for a goalie?   

 

GMTM also panicked when he signed Franson.  He wanted and needed a LD puck mover (which we still need), but signed the RD Franson.  This foolish signing was the first domino that lead to the chain of events (the unbalanced D group) that lead directing to trading Pysyk, our best possession defender, for the LD Kulikov.  Thus one desperation move lead to another.   

 

Everyone, fans and media, criticized Edmonton for not developing and or acquiring the D to get their rebuild really moving forward.  Regier, who I dislike, was actually doing the rebuild properly by drafting Risto, Zadorov, & McCabe to go with other good D prospects Pysyk and McNabb already in the pipeline and Myers.  Had GMTM simply stuck with mostly what he had, even making the ROR trade, our D would look like 

 

McCabe Risto

McNabb Myers

Pysyk

 

That's a hell of a lot better then the mess we have now.  Sometimes the best deal are the one you don't make.  We wouldn't have Kane, Delo or Fasching, but we'd have Roslovic instead of Fasching, Armia and Lemieux. I'll take the better D.  Maybe Armia and Lemieux could have been traded for a solid 3rd line LD

[GASabresIUFAN]

If the Sabres are out of the playoff hunt by the draft deadline, or even if they have a long shot, I would rather they become sellers and see if they can move some of the veterans to playoff teams (Franson, Gorges, Gionta, Ennis, Moulson (might have to retain salary)) for prospects or draft picks, and let the younger players finish the season in Buffalo (Nelson, Bailey, Baptiste, Fasching, and/or Nylander).  Make ROR the new captain.  Then next year they add in Guhle, and either trade for or sign another decent 5-6 D.  Watching the games, I think the biggest consistent problem is the bottom 4 D losing puck battles in the D zone and not breaking out quickly.

 

So I have to give it another year before I change my mind on GMTM.

It's hard to score when you don't have the puck.  I have been harping on this all off-season and all season.  Once GMTM again panicked and acquired Kulikov, who was being traded because of mediocre possession numbers, to go with bad possession players Bogo (lots of speed but poor hockey IQ), Franson (slow), and Gorges (even slower), he had already sewed the seeds of this poor season.  

 

I started this thread with an incomplete grade for GMTM, but after reading this discussion and re-thinking the signings and trades, I'm ready to give him a D.  The negative, especially on D, and the prices he paid for some of these deals has me convinced he has been more of a problem creator then problem solver.

 

On the Plus side - ROR, Okposo, Gionta and Nilsson

 

On the negative - Kane, Bogo, Kulikov, Fasching, Franson, Moulson, Gorges, Grant, and Delo, Plus losing McNabb, Pysyk, letting Chad Johnson walk and 2 1st rd picks

[TrueBlueGED]

GMTM also panicked when he signed Franson. He wanted and needed a LD puck mover (which we still need), but signed the RD Franson. This foolish signing was the first domino that lead to the chain of events (the unbalanced D group) that lead directing to trading Pysyk, our best possession defender, for the LD Kulikov. Thus one desperation move lead to another.

You've jumped the shark with this one. Murray traded Pysyk because he didn't like Pysyk's game. Nor did Bylsma.

 

I can't believe the hate Franson still gets. He was signed to a cheap, low risk deal to be a stop gap while looking for something better, while giving us the option of dealing him for a pick. This is the type of signing Murray should have done more of, rather than large deals with long term cap implications (Moulson, Gorges). And Franson has been perfectly fine on the 3rd pair.

[nfreeman]

You've jumped the shark with this one. Murray traded Pysyk because he didn't like Pysyk's game. Nor did Bylsma.

 

I can't believe the hate Franson still gets. He was signed to a cheap, low risk deal to be a stop gap while looking for something better, while giving us the option of dealing him for a pick. This is the type of signing Murray should have done more of, rather than large deals with long term cap implications (Moulson, Gorges). And Franson has been perfectly fine on the 3rd pair.

 

Completely agree.

[Iron Crotch]

When he doesn't get into a foot race, Franson is an effective player. He is good on the PK (doesn't need speed for that) and power play. He just has no wheels and if another team attacks with speed and he gets caught up ice... done. He at least brings a little bit of offensive instinct, unlike Bogo, Gorges, etc.

[pastajoe]

Sorry, but Franson worries me more than any other D when he's on the ice.  He's just not good in the D zone.  The dump and chase beats him, and he's not physical on the boards or in the slot. His 9 points in 41 games don't make up for his D-ficiencies.  Fedun has 6 in 16 and is faster.  I'd rather they brought up and played Nelson.

[Lanny]

How?  GMTM knew his uncle had to trade one of his goalies. Hamburgler had just lead them to the playoffs, thus he wasn't on the market and Anderson has injury issues (as did Lehner)  That should have given GMTM the leverage.  Instead Uncle Bryan knew Tim was fixated on Lehner (despite injury issues) and used that against him.   GMTM should have been flexible enough to be able to say no.  We already had Ullmark and Petersen drafted and Chad Johnson under contract when GMTM acquired Lehner.  Tim should have said no on the deal, then inquired about one of the other 2 goalies or moved on. Cam Talbot was also on the market amongst others.  Granted hindsight is 20/20 but maybe he should have just gotten someone to split time with Chad and let the chip fall where they might,  We weren't going to make the playoffs last year, so were we really desperate for a goalie?   

We're agreeing here, my response was with regards to Lehner being available for only a 2nd. If Ottawa didn't need to trade Lehner because they had a deal for one of the other two goalies then they could have set the price at the 1st or no deal. TM should have then likely walked away. 

[SwampD]

Sorry, but Franson worries me more than any other D when he's on the ice.  He's just not good in the D zone.  The dump and chase beats him, and he's not physical on the boards or in the slot. His 9 points in 41 games don't make up for his D-ficiencies.  Fedun has 6 in 16 and is faster.  I'd rather they brought up and played Nelson.

I really don't know what games you are watching. Sorry to sound like a douche. but that pretty much is his entire game and one of the reasons I like him.

[Randall Flagg]

I really don't know what games you are watching. Sorry to sound like a douche. but that pretty much is his entire game and one of the reasons I like him.

He and McCabe have been the go-to's for big exciting collisions, that's for sure.

 

And most of his penalties are of the physical variety that most fans are okay with (and several have been terrible calls - that "cross check" on Vesey? Yeah, right)

 

 

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On Monday Schopp and the Bulldog were referencing a Tim Murray interview, one of his radio appearances, that was done recently. They said he was waffling on whether or not this team was going to be a buyer or a seller, that he sounded like he didn't want to commit either way yet because he wasn't sure what we are.

 

Tim, this board has a lot of disagreements on why, but if there is one thing that everyone here can agree is correct, your team has been garbage this year and is not going anywhere. You need to do something, at some point soon. Whether it's a big trade, a firing, a commitment to becoming a seller, you should damn well know that this team is not good enough, injuries or not.

 

This team has spent FOUR out of FOURTY FOUR games this year above .400 winning percentage. That's all I have to even say. 

 

Fix this mess.