Where in development are Murray's 2016 draft picks

[TrueBlueGED]

I was gonna go with a left handed Franson, but slower Bogo works for me.

[LTS]

I don't think we're arguing in a vacuum.

 

I think everyone here is well aware of the various difficulties the Sabres have been confronted with this season.

 

I think everyone here is also capable of considering those difficulties in evaluating the overall state of the Sabres.  Some of us think GMTM deserves a pass, while others do not. 

 

No one is pretending that Eichel and Kane didn't miss games -- it's just that some people think that even with those (and other) setbacks, the team should be better than it is.

 

I think you are arguing in a vacuum if you dismiss where this team is with or without Jack Eichel and do not also account for the other players missing time.  The goal differential of a team with or without one player is only a good example if all the other players were playing at both times.  This was clearly not the case.  As such, the argument is avoiding key data points that matter.

 

Ryan O'Reilly - 9G 18A - 10 games missed

Evander Kane - 12G 5A - 11 games missed

Jack Eichel - 10G 9A - 21 games missed

 

The Sabres have 106GF in 45 games this season.  Those players represent about 29% of the total goals scored by the team and set up another 30% or so of the teams goals.  Now I'm not taking into account where they get A's on each other's goals.. so you can factor it back a bit.  That said.. it's hard to argue for any one of those players without accounting for who is also missing.

 

The Sabres are 7 points from the 11/12 overall spot in the NHL.  If they were able to score 30% more goals in the games those players missed I'd like to think they'd be in a much better position.

[nfreeman]

I think you are arguing in a vacuum if you dismiss where this team is with or without Jack Eichel and do not also account for the other players missing time.  The goal differential of a team with or without one player is only a good example if all the other players were playing at both times.  This was clearly not the case.  As such, the argument is avoiding key data points that matter.

 

Ryan O'Reilly - 9G 18A - 10 games missed

Evander Kane - 12G 5A - 11 games missed

Jack Eichel - 10G 9A - 21 games missed

 

The Sabres have 106GF in 45 games this season.  Those players represent about 29% of the total goals scored by the team and set up another 30% or so of the teams goals.  Now I'm not taking into account where they get A's on each other's goals.. so you can factor it back a bit.  That said.. it's hard to argue for any one of those players without accounting for who is also missing.

 

The Sabres are 7 points from the 11/12 overall spot in the NHL.  If they were able to score 30% more goals in the games those players missed I'd like to think they'd be in a much better position.

 

Well, as someone noted upthread, the correct comparison isn't the additional goals those guys would've presumably delivered vs zero -- it's the goals they would've delivered vs the goals that were delivered by their replacements, including on the top PP (which has performed surprisingly well all season, including while those guys were out). 

 

It's also important to remember that every team has injuries -- so again, the correct comparison isn't this team vs a 100% healthy team -- it's this team vs a team with an average amount of injuries.

 

I don't dispute that injuries have set the Sabres back, or that with better luck in that department plus better performance in the SO, they might be on the bubble.  I just think we as fans are entitled to evaluate them based on their results, and to give as much (or as little) weight to the injuries as we see fit.

[Rasmus_]

ESPN came out with their top 50 prospect rankings today. Not surprisingly, Nylander is #4.

Cliff Pu was ranked 20th.

 

"He has had a monster season and has been the top rising prospect in my eyes. He has been one of the OHL's best players and a key part to London's continuing to be a dominant force in that league. It's hard to find a flaw in Pu's game. He's big, fast and skilled, and he can make plays at both ends of the rink. Pu doesn't have elite skill, but there's plenty of talent there to project as a potential top-six center in the NHL. A part of me wants to see Pu with the Sabres sooner than later just to see how Rick Jeanneret calls his goals. Also, he likes stuffed animals a lot."

 

So, gmtm drafts Guhle in 2nd, Borgen in 4th, Pu in 3rd, Asplund in 2nd and somehow people think he needs to be fired??

 

I honestly think his only mistakes are the potential hire of Bylsma and contracts of Moulson, Ennis honestly.  The other trades for better or worse have been even or wins.  Whether you want to put the Winnipeg deal in either favor, I would say that the gentle giant (Myers) and Stafford have more or less come out about even with Kane and Bogosian for better or worse.  While Armia has done some things and Lemieux still has yet to come to fruition Kane when healthy has proven effective in all zones.  His 2015 and 2016 drafts were both solid.  Especially last year with late round picks that seem to be doing nicely. 

[LTS]

Well, as someone noted upthread, the correct comparison isn't the additional goals those guys would've presumably delivered vs zero -- it's the goals they would've delivered vs the goals that were delivered by their replacements, including on the top PP (which has performed surprisingly well all season, including while those guys were out). 

 

It's also important to remember that every team has injuries -- so again, the correct comparison isn't this team vs a 100% healthy team -- it's this team vs a team with an average amount of injuries.

 

I don't dispute that injuries have set the Sabres back, or that with better luck in that department plus better performance in the SO, they might be on the bubble.  I just think we as fans are entitled to evaluate them based on their results, and to give as much (or as little) weight to the injuries as we see fit.

 

And as I pointed out.. show me another team that is missing 30% of its offense for a good amount of games and I suspect they are struggling just as much.  You show me a team that lost 3 bottom 6 forwards and I think they'll be doing just fine.

 

You can give whatever weight you want to anything.  But if you want convince anyone of your point its probably not best to ignore that for nearly 25% of the season the team was playing without 30% of its offense.  If the Sabres were lucky enough to have two RORs or Eichels in their system we wouldn't even be concerned.  What teams have that?

[Thorner]

Even if the Sabres had 3 more points, now you are 4 points out of the playoffs. Now add in all the other injuries to their top 9 and top 4.

You can choose to be doom and gloom, I'm just not about to join you.

I see what he is building and realize it going to take time - literally the Sabres were historically bad only 2 years ago. To think the turn around would be any faster when you are relying on young players to carry your team is completely misguided IMO.

This logic makes sense in a vacuum, but it deals with the variable of injuries as if it's a one-off, something that's avoidable going forward. Injuries are a constant variable and will remain so. I hesitate to use them as an excuse.

 

I don't think we're arguing in a vacuum.

 

I think everyone here is well aware of the various difficulties the Sabres have been confronted with this season.

 

I think everyone here is also capable of considering those difficulties in evaluating the overall state of the Sabres.  Some of us think GMTM deserves a pass, while others do not. 

 

No one is pretending that Eichel and Kane didn't miss games -- it's just that some people think that even with those (and other) setbacks, the team should be better than it is.

In fact, I think those using injuries as an excuse are those arguing in a vacuum. That magical world where we will become healthy and remain so. This doesn't happen. (Unless you are Toronto.)

Edited January 22, 2017 by Thorny

[Crusader1969]

I'm not calling Fasching a failed player, but when you evaluate a trade you have to look at what you gave up for what you got.  

We gave up McNabb and 2 2nd rd picks for 4th rd pick Fasching and 3rd pick Delo.  We desperately need McNabb a great deal more then we need a marginal NHLer (Delo) and another depth forward (Fasching), especially when you consider we have Carrier, Baptiste, Bailey and Cornel also.

We actually traded a 2nd rd pick for Gorges who is now nothing more then a 5/6 D at nearly $4 mill per season.  Not exactly great value.

Lehner has been outplayed by two backups we got for nearly nothing in Nilsson and Chad Johnson.  Again, a waste of assets.  We would be just as good in net with a combo of Nilsson and Johnson and then we'd have Roslovic in the system.  You also can't compare the Lehner and Andersen deals.  Andersen was a proven NHL starter with 125 games of experience plus 28 playoff games including seasons of 43 and 54 starts with a GAA under 2.30.  Lehner had never started more then 36 games, had an injury history and had GAA over 3 in his last 2 nhl campaigns.  One is a correct payment (Anderson) and one is overpayment (Lehner) especially when you consider we got stuck to Legwand and his $3 cap hit.  

Kane and Bogo are a failed trade because we are paying $10 mill for production from 2 guys who were supposed to be central to this rebuild, who haven't stayed healthy or produced.  Bogo has regressed to being a 5/6 D at best and Kane, who is finally scoring some, is also grossly overpaid for his 20 goal production.  And yes, we'd be better off with Myers slotted in behind Risto then Bogo.

Lehner, Kane and Bogosian just gave your argument a big F you this weekend. All 3 were exceptional! Now let's keep it going !

[Norcal]

Hagel scored his 20th tonight, part of his 6 point night.

[pastajoe]

Brendan Guhle snagged a pair of first-period goals (10, 11) before leaving the game in the second period due to injury. @KrisBaker

[ubkev]

Brendan Guhle snagged a pair of first-period goals (10, 11) before leaving the game in the second period due to injury. @KrisBaker

Oh Christ! Wtf is it now? Stigmata?

 

We can't seem to buy a break with injuries at any level this year.

Edited January 22, 2017 by ubkev

[Drunkard]

I will ask you again:  if the Sabres are well out of the playoffs again next year, should GMTM be accountable?

 

It completely depends on the number of words he uses to select our next top 10 pick in the draft. 3 words or less and he can continue to feed us dog for another half decade.

 

ZFG

[inkman]

It completely depends on the number of words he uses to select our next top 10 pick in the draft. 3 words or less and he can continue to feed us dog ###### for another half decade.

 

ZFG

Perfect :lol:

[TheAud]

http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/article/prospect-need-to-know-rasmus-asplund-eagerly-awaiting-opportunity-with-sabres

 

Nice article about Asplund

[MattPie]

Well, as someone noted upthread, the correct comparison isn't the additional goals those guys would've presumably delivered vs zero -- it's the goals they would've delivered vs the goals that were delivered by their replacements, including on the top PP (which has performed surprisingly well all season, including while those guys were out). 

 

It's also important to remember that every team has injuries -- so again, the correct comparison isn't this team vs a 100% healthy team -- it's this team vs a team with an average amount of injuries.

 

I don't dispute that injuries have set the Sabres back, or that with better luck in that department plus better performance in the SO, they might be on the bubble.  I just think we as fans are entitled to evaluate them based on their results, and to give as much (or as little) weight to the injuries as we see fit.

 

One of those guys would have displaced Grant, so same difference. :)

[nfreeman]

One of those guys would have displaced Grant, so same difference. :)

 

 

Ooooooooooohhhh.  You got me.

[Derrico]

Just wanted to mention I bought tickets long in advance for Sunday's game between London and Oshawa to watch Cliff Pu.  I was not disappointed.  During warmups my little guy and I were wearing our Sabres jerseys and getting Pu's attention.  He smiled at us a couple of times and my little guy was loving every minute. 

 

Apparently Cliff was out the night before recovering from the flu and you could tell he seemed to get worn out later in shifts.  But overall a great game and exactly as advertised.  He's big and fast (almost a Justin Bailey type style).  He came out for the first unit PP, first unit PK and played a good all around game.  Several chances to score but ended up officially with 1 assist.  GMTM is taking deserved criticism lately but some of his later round picks have the potential to be regulars in the near future. 

[Thorner]

Just wanted to mention I bought tickets long in advance for Sunday's game between London and Oshawa to watch Cliff Pu.  I was not disappointed.  During warmups my little guy and I were wearing our Sabres jerseys and getting Pu's attention.  He smiled at us a couple of times and my little guy was loving every minute. 

 

Apparently Cliff was out the night before recovering from the flu and you could tell he seemed to get worn out later in shifts.  But overall a great game and exactly as advertised.  He's big and fast (almost a Justin Bailey type style).  He came out for the first unit PP, first unit PK and played a good all around game.  Several chances to score but ended up officially with 1 assist.  GMTM is taking deserved criticism lately but some of his later round picks have the potential to be regulars in the near future.

 

Good to hear!