TrueBlueGED Posted April 4, 2017 Report Share Posted April 4, 2017 You would have been welcome on Team Storm Cloud. I...i...I don't know how to take this :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pi2000 Posted April 4, 2017 Report Share Posted April 4, 2017 How do you shut down a line that rolls 3 equal lines then? How do you shut down a SJ, Chicago, Pitt, or Washington with 2 equally dominate lines? A shutdown line is not the solution I'd be interested to know what Larsson shutdown line actually did as far as possession impact on the rest of the team No team has 3 equal lines. You match them up against the biggest threats.... Pavelski, Kane, Crosby, Ovechkin... you choose a few players to neutralize. Larsson and shutdown shouldn't be in the same sentence... ugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted April 4, 2017 Report Share Posted April 4, 2017 A big reason BUF has some of the worst possession numbers if because they don't have a shutdown line. They routinely get outshot because they don't have anybody in the forward ranks (other than ROR) who can defend. You improve the 3rd line, get a UFA shutdown checking C who can win draws and suddenly their possession stats look drastically improved because Bylsma can match them up against top lines instead of sending ROR out every other shift to take face-offs in their own end. Even when Bylsma had his best rosters in Pittsburgh, they weren't an elite possession team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pi2000 Posted April 4, 2017 Report Share Posted April 4, 2017 Even when Bylsma had his best rosters in Pittsburgh, they weren't an elite possession team. Over his 6 year reign in PIT, they had the 10th best Corsi% in the entire league during that time span. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted April 4, 2017 Report Share Posted April 4, 2017 (edited) No team has 3 equal lines. You match them up against the biggest threats.... Pavelski, Kane, Crosby, Ovechkin... you choose a few players to neutralize. Larsson and shutdown shouldn't be in the same sentence... ugh. I'd bet there is some team that has 3 equal lines, or very close to it. Regardless those teams I listed all have 2 equal lines. Even if a shutdown line truly can negate Crosby, Backstrome, Thornton, and Kane, who gets to play against Malkin, Kusnetsov, Couture, and Toews? Having a line who's sole purpose is to do nothing but negate another seems pointless Edited April 4, 2017 by WildCard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted April 4, 2017 Report Share Posted April 4, 2017 Over his 6 year reign in PIT, they had the 10th best Corsi% in the entire league during that time span. Correct. Know what teams win Cups? 1, 2, 3, and 4. #10 is not elite. It's good, but it's not elite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted April 4, 2017 Report Share Posted April 4, 2017 Have the Pens been a better possession team since he's left? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Flagg Posted April 4, 2017 Report Share Posted April 4, 2017 Have the Pens been a better possession team since he's left? I don't have all of the data, but I did the math a while ago for last season - with their first coach, they were operating around 47 or 48%, and with their second they were up around 54%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pi2000 Posted April 4, 2017 Report Share Posted April 4, 2017 I'd bet there is some team that has 3 equal lines, or very close to it. Regardless those teams I listed all have 2 equally lines. Even if a shutdown line truly can negate Crosby, Backstrome, Thornton, and Kane, who gets to play against Malkin, Kusnetsov, Couture, and Toews? Having a line who's sole purpose is to do nothing but negate another seems pointless How many shots you allow is 50% of the Corsi algorithm. To have good possession numbers you need players who can prevent shots on net... that starts with winning face-offs, blocking shots, shutting down other teams top shot generating line. BUF is supremely inept at defending.. and my eyes tell me it's not because of the "system", it's the players who are too slow, unwilling to block shots, can't win faceoffs.. etc.. intangible skills that aren't a reflection of coaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted April 4, 2017 Report Share Posted April 4, 2017 I don't have all of the data, but I did the math a while ago for last season - with their first coach, they were operating around 47 or 48%, and with their second they were up around 54%.So when they dominated on their way to a Cup last year, they dominated on possession? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pi2000 Posted April 4, 2017 Report Share Posted April 4, 2017 Correct. Know what teams win Cups? 1, 2, 3, and 4. #10 is not elite. It's good, but it's not elite. ...and #10 :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted April 4, 2017 Report Share Posted April 4, 2017 How many shots you allow is 50% of the Corsi algorithm. To have good possession numbers you need players who can prevent shots on net... that starts with winning face-offs, blocking shots, shutting down other teams top shot generating line. BUF is supremely inept at defending.. and my eyes tell me it's not because of the "system", it's the players who are too slow, unwilling to block shots, can't win faceoffs.. etc.. intangible skills that aren't a reflection of coaching.But like I said, shut down Crosby's line and then you get Malkin. Say you take Crosby's line from 12 to 7 shots, and Malkins line still gets their 12. Your line is not outshooting or possessing Crosby, so you get less than 7, say 4. So -3, and you still have Malkin to deal with Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted April 4, 2017 Report Share Posted April 4, 2017 How many shots you allow is 50% of the Corsi algorithm. To have good possession numbers you need players who can prevent shots on net... that starts with winning face-offs, blocking shots, shutting down other teams top shot generating line. BUF is supremely inept at defending.. and my eyes tell me it's not because of the "system", it's the players who are too slow, unwilling to block shots, can't win faceoffs.. etc.. intangible skills that aren't a reflection of coaching. Uh, I mean, you basically just shot your credibility on the matter by not knowing a blocked shot is still a Corsi against. Blocking more shots does not give you a better Corsi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted April 4, 2017 Report Share Posted April 4, 2017 What is our FO and shot blocking relative to the league anyways? My eyes, and Flagg's, tell me we get outshot because we can't sustain an offensive presence cause we can't enter the zone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted April 4, 2017 Report Share Posted April 4, 2017 ...and #10 :P Crosby and Malkin :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pi2000 Posted April 4, 2017 Report Share Posted April 4, 2017 How many shots you allow is 50% of the Corsi algorithm. To have good possession numbers you need players who can prevent shots on net... that starts with winning face-offs, blocking shots, shutting down other teams top shot generating line. BUF is supremely inept at defending.. and my eyes tell me it's not because of the "system", it's the players who are too slow, unwilling to block shots, can't win faceoffs.. etc.. intangible skills that aren't a reflection of coaching. ..and guess which team allowed the most shots against the past 3 seasons... Since Dan took over they moved from 30th in shot for per game to 13th this season... that's a huge improvement, and if you argue that's because of Eichel, Kane, etc., then you also have to agree that shot suppression is suffering because of players. That's you're entire Corsi right there. Until they lower their shots against per game, they're going to languish in the bottom half of the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted April 4, 2017 Report Share Posted April 4, 2017 Unlikely. Moving Reinhart off Eichel's wing would leave a void.. he already has 1 void to his left, moving Reinhart would hurt Eichel's production and significantly water down the top 6. And Reinhart is not nearly good enough defensively to match-up against other teams top lines. That's why you use the guy who played a shutdown role for Team Canada at the World Cup against the Ovechkins of the world. And you (like Dan) are selling Eichel short. He can produce without Reinhart. I would be shocked if Jack didn't pile up similar totals this year playing with Moulson and Girgensons the entire season. I'm less surprised Dan never tried it. Three balanced lines can work just fine with three good centres. But if you must have a checking line, ROR/Foligno/Gionta looked pretty good in that role the few times we saw them. Sam would kill with Kane and Okposo (or Ennis if wanted Kyle with Jack or Ryan) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted April 4, 2017 Report Share Posted April 4, 2017 Crosby and Malkin :pDidn't they have nearly record breaking performances that postseason? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted April 4, 2017 Report Share Posted April 4, 2017 I...i...I don't know how to take this :lol: Hint. TSC was right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted April 4, 2017 Report Share Posted April 4, 2017 (edited) ..and guess which team allowed the most shots against the past 3 seasons... Since Dan took over they moved from 30th in shot for per game to 13th this season... that's a huge improvement, and if you argue that's because of Eichel, Kane, etc., then you also have to agree that shot suppression is suffering because of players. That's you're entire Corsi right there. Until they lower their shots against per game, they're going to languish in the bottom half of the league. Wait what? So they go from 30th to 13th because they're no longer actively trying to lose, and that's somehow thanks to Byslma? Not Fielding 6 AHL defensmen? Edited April 4, 2017 by WildCard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted April 4, 2017 Report Share Posted April 4, 2017 What is our FO and shot blocking relative to the league anyways? My eyes, and Flagg's, tell me we get outshot because we can't sustain an offensive presence cause we can't enter the zone *raises hand* There has yet to be any evidence to support the notion that faceoffs contribute in any meaningful way to possession. Our possession sucks because we can't transition up the ice effectively, and because we rarely enter the offensive zone with possession (or the ability to quickly regain it). Some of that is roster-based, some is system-based. Most of us in the "Bylsma sucks" camp acknowledge this shared blame, whereas the Bylsma backers want to pin it entirely on the players. I know which group I think is being more reasonable :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted April 4, 2017 Report Share Posted April 4, 2017 Maybe that shouldn't have playoffs anymore. I mean, the season is long enough. And don't even keep score during the regular season. Just award the #1Corsi team the Stanley Cup at the end of the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted April 4, 2017 Report Share Posted April 4, 2017 Maybe that shouldn't have playoffs anymore. I mean, the season is long enough. And don't even keep score during the regular season. Just award the #1Corsi team the Stanley Cup at the end of the season.You like the EPL, don't ya? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted April 4, 2017 Report Share Posted April 4, 2017 (edited) ..and guess which team allowed the most shots against the past 3 seasons... Since Dan took over they moved from 30th in shot for per game to 13th this season... that's a huge improvement, and if you argue that's because of Eichel, Kane, etc., then you also have to agree that shot suppression is suffering because of players. That's you're entire Corsi right there. Until they lower their shots against per game, they're going to languish in the bottom half of the league. I've readily acknowledged in the past that Bylsma's system has legitimate shot suppression value. But it cannot do that while also creating. He neuters the offense for the sake of low event hockey. I don't think that wins in 2017, and I'm certain it's the wrong approach for this group of players. Speaking of which, to those in the pro-Bylsma camp...would it be any more effective for me to argue Bylsma is the wrong coach, rather than a bad coach? Or is any criticism of Bylsma going to be rejected in full? Edited April 4, 2017 by TrueBlueGED Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pi2000 Posted April 4, 2017 Report Share Posted April 4, 2017 Uh, I mean, you basically just shot your credibility on the matter by not knowing a blocked shot is still a Corsi against. Blocking more shots does not give you a better Corsi. I stand corrected. That said, my eyes tell me BUF sucks at shot blocking. However (I looked it up before, I'm too lazy right now), they rank in the top half of the league in block shots per game... which I would argue is because they allow a ton of shots. A more telling stat would be shots blocked %... which I would imagine BUF is near the bottom. That said, to take the next step, they need to work on their shot suppression, and that will come by getting better defensive players in their bottom six. Gionta, Moulson, Ennis are not defensively skilled players, and I would argue neither are Girgensons or Foligno. It's a hot mess at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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