Let the Fire Bylsma Watch begin

[inkman]

(Speaking of Rochester)

 

The canary in the coal mine for the Sabres is the Amerks. As long as Rochester continues to dwell in the bottom third of the league, the Sabres will remain non-contenders. The entire Sabres system does not have enough talent. If you see the Amerks become contenders in the AHL, then you may see the Sabres becoming contenders in the NHL soon thereafter.

 

At the moment there are not enough top prospects in the pipeline. Who is responsible?

 

Has anybody seriously questioned GM Murray for trading away so many prospects for negligible returns thus far? If the "Fire Bylsma watch" is in play, what about the fire Murray watch? Just wondering.

Every thread on sabrespace has posters questioning Murray. It also doesn't help that the Sabres best players are 20-22 years old. Those players would normally be in Rochester winning Cups but they are too good for that. If the Amerks top 6 consisted of Eichel,Reinhart,Bailey, Baptiste,Fasching,Nylander with Risto and Guhle on the back end with Ullmark in net. They might not lose a game ever.

 

So instead of all those players being together and developing, they are spread througout all the levels of the org. Give it two years when they are all together and peeking. We've seen flashes. Next year will be better.

 

Now if they can just get a coach to maximize those talents.

[Two or less]

At the moment there are not enough top prospects in the pipeline. Who is responsible?

 

The year Murray took over as GM, Sabres only had one player in the entire organization with 30 or more goals - Nic Baptiste with Sudbury.

 

This season-

 

Pu... 27

Estephen... 22

Hagel... 18

Baptiste... 17

Bailey... 14

 

All of those will have a good chance get to that mark if they remain healthy and if Baptiste and Bailey remain developing in the AHL.

[Brawndo]

Every thread on sabrespace has posters questioning Murray. It also doesn't help that the Sabres best players are 20-22 years old. Those players would normally be in Rochester winning Cups but they are too good for that. If the Amerks top 6 consisted of Eichel,Reinhart,Bailey, Baptiste,Fasching,Nylander with Risto and Guhle on the back end with Ullmark in net. They might not lose a game ever.

So instead of all those players being together and developing, they are spread througout all the levels of the org. Give it two years when they are all together and peeking. We've seen flashes. Next year will be better.

Now if they can just get a coach to maximize those talents.

These are excellent points.

 

Something else to remember when comparing the Buffalo and Toronto rebuilds, since 2008 the Leafs have been bad enough to draft in the Top Ten with exception of 2011 & 2013. Granted they traded to of those picks to Boston for Kessel, but Kadri, Schenn(traded for JVR), Reilly, Nylander, Marner all came from Top Ten Picks. Tyler Seguin and Dougie Hamilton were the Boston's Picks.

 

That's five picks that are contributing to Toronto's Success, before adding Matthews.

 

Shanhan started the tear down in second half of the 2014-15 Season. He made some very good trades Clarkson for Horton and Kessel.

 

Add Babcock, Lamerllo, Dubas and Hunter and they are off and running.

 

Pieces of the rebuild were already in place.

 

Matthews was the final piece, not the first.

[Sabel79]

These are excellent points.

Something else to remember when comparing the Buffalo and Toronto rebuilds, since 2008 the Leafs have been bad enough to draft in the Top Ten with exception of 2011 & 2013. Granted they traded to of those picks to Boston for Kessel, but Kadri, Schenn(traded for JVR), Reilly, Nylander, Marner all came from Top Ten Picks. Tyler Seguin and Dougie Hamilton were the Boston's Picks.

That's five picks that are contributing to Toronto's Success, before adding Matthews.

Shanhan started the tear down in second half of the 2014-15 Season. He made some very good trades Clarkson for Horton and Kessel.

Add Babcock, Lamerllo, Dubas and Hunter and they are off and running.

Pieces of the rebuild were already in place.

Matthews was the final piece, not the first.

In all honesty, the Laffs have been a tire fire of the highest order since 2000. Geoff Sanderson, with one hand on his stick, put paid to the last opportunity to play for a cup they had, or still will have for a few years yet. It could be worse in Buffalo. I cling tenaciously to this,

[nfreeman]

F this.  F giving him another "free year."  He's had two free years already.

 

He came into basically the dream scenario for a GM.  The team is 30th and your owner literally wants you to keep it 30th for another season.  Plus you're adding two second-overall draft picks to a system that already has a ton of prospects and picks to use to turn the team around.

 

He inherits the perfect situation and the best he can do is get us from 30th to 27th?  Jack Eichel could have done that himself.  We're low on assets that other teams would want in a trade and now we're saddled with horrible contracts for guys like Moulson and Bogosian.  

 

Most of this board could have done a better job turning the team around than Tim Murray.

 

you make some good points, but i must disagree that GMTM joined a "perfect " situation.  joining the worst team in the nhl isn't the perfect situation.  It's the worst possible situation. 

 

and that's because, as I've been saying for years, tanking usually fails.

 

In all honesty, the Laffs have been a tire fire of the highest order since 2000. Geoff Sanderson, with one hand on his stick, put paid to the last opportunity to play for a cup they had, or still will have for a few years yet. It could be worse in Buffalo. I cling tenaciously to this,

 

bonus points for usage of "put paid."

[Drunkard]

Can we just let Lehner chew him up and spit him out?

[Scottysabres]

Hey all, new here but long time reader.

I have good friends from the Pittsburg area who are telling me Dan Bylsma heavily stifled the Penguins offensive capacity while he was there.

While I realize this team has had injury issues this season, there is something going on here. This team should be better than this.

Anyways, I'd like to see Bylsma removed and a new system installed to work the strengths of our players. Just my take is all.

[Jacque Richard]

Bumbling idiots down there. Harrington article hits on the head. Their not going anywhere with this coach and they won't make the playoffs either. Spinning their wheels again

[TXSabresFan]

I'm a very new Sabres fan but have loved watching the team and learning more about them. Growing up in the South I never was exposed to hockey so I'm very much still learning the ins and outs of the game and what to be looking for while watching a live game. That being said, watching the Sabres offensively seems to be so boring and painful at times. There doesn't seem to be much flow to the offense and they don't seem to consistently transition through the neutral zone and create opportunities on the offensive end like some other teams do. But, as a new hockey fan, I'm just now able to understand this. So, what really is it about Byslma that makes him a bad coach? By putting it in very basic terms for a new hockey fan that doesn't yet understand a ton, what is his offensive style and what kind of style would you prefer instead?

[Jsixspd]

I am awaiting, after this latest loss and the Sabres now 0-2 against the Leafs this season, a team we used to defeat with glee and regularity, Tim Murray's defense of his 'employee' Dan Bylsma.   Because remember, Dreary Dan told us - Tim is the 'boss'.    And obviously Murray choose and hired this 'employee' of 'his';  the PA Connection is just a coincidence, and just because the Pegulas damagingly meddle in the Bills on field operations, clearly that doesn't prove they must be endlessly meddling in the Sabres too.  No rubberstamp of Pegula decisions by GMTM, like Whaley, right?  Because Murray has a gruff face in public interviews, we know for certain he's a lot more in charge than Whaley, no?    lol

BTW,  0-4 against Boston for the season (6 consecutive losses to Boston including last season) and now 0-2 against the Leafs.  How does Bylsma keep surviving these debacles?  

 

[North Buffalo]

Let him get thru the end of the year. Then fire him, want a top 3 pick.

[Jacque Richard]

Great keep spinning the wheels and wait for the franchise to become better

[darksabre]

[North Buffalo]

Great keep spinning the wheels and wait for the franchise to become better

At this point its our only hope. Up with hope... or up with dope? which would you prefer... crap shouldnt have asked that question... dope would win easily around here... Edited January 18, 2017 by North Buffalo

[JohnRobertEichel]

Can we just let Lehner chew him up and spit him out?

 

 

I realize that Lehner has always been a bit of a hothead, but it's always been directed toward the other team until now. In my opinion, Lehner's behavior last night following the benching is indicative of a head coach with a very tenuous command of the team. Rumors of Eichel being unhappy with the coach don't surprise me. Dan Abysmal should be fired no later than the end of this lost season.

[Drunkard]

I realize that Lehner has always been a bit of a hothead, but it's always been directed toward the other team until now. In my opinion, Lehner's behavior last night following the benching is indicative of a head coach with a very tenuous command of the team. Rumors of Eichel being unhappy with the coach don't surprise me. Dan Abysmal should be fired no later than the end of this lost season.

 

I was waiting for Lehner to give DB the throat cutting sign although I would have preferred him to just headbutt the guy and break his f'n nose. I can't stand DB and the sooner he is shown the door the better off the team will be.

[nfreeman]

Hey all, new here but long time reader.

I have good friends from the Pittsburg area who are telling me Dan Bylsma heavily stifled the Penguins offensive capacity while he was there.

While I realize this team has had injury issues this season, there is something going on here. This team should be better than this.

Anyways, I'd like to see Bylsma removed and a new system installed to work the strengths of our players. Just my take is all.

I'm a very new Sabres fan but have loved watching the team and learning more about them. Growing up in the South I never was exposed to hockey so I'm very much still learning the ins and outs of the game and what to be looking for while watching a live game. That being said, watching the Sabres offensively seems to be so boring and painful at times. There doesn't seem to be much flow to the offense and they don't seem to consistently transition through the neutral zone and create opportunities on the offensive end like some other teams do. But, as a new hockey fan, I'm just now able to understand this. So, what really is it about Byslma that makes him a bad coach? By putting it in very basic terms for a new hockey fan that doesn't yet understand a ton, what is his offensive style and what kind of style would you prefer instead?

 

Welcome to both of you!

[Randall Flagg]

I've spent a lot of time re-watching games to look for things, and I've been to four live this season where I've spent most of the time trying to dissect what we do on the ice. I post a lot about it as you've all seen. Throughout the process my understanding and critiques of Bylsma hockey have evolved a little bit. 

 

I think the Toronto game came at the perfect time to emphasize one of the perception shifts I had. Toronto, not because of their strategy (I've watched 5 or 6 of their games this year, so that's what I'm going on for this point) but because of what we did in the neutral zone, dumped the puck in last night as much as, if not more than us. I think our neutral zone defense can be quite good at forcing this, and I think a lot of our defensive problems stem from what happens immediately after - we give pucks away that we have full possession of when other teams dump (Bogosian  :angry: ) and we back off of opposing players as they enter the zone or drive the net. We also don't give defensemen puck support and so there's a lot of "chip off the boards to clear" or "stretch to try and hit a pass that obviously will not connect nine times out of ten" which allows for wave after wave of opposing offense. (Showing half of the reason why our CF% is less than one percentage point above dead last in the NHL)

 

When we have the puck and are carrying through the neutral zone, I now believe that we pure-dump-&-chase only a little bit more than we should, and ROR and KO are probably the culprits. Now, the 1-2-2 that we see until we are losing by two doesn't help this at all, but it's only an atrocity with the other part of our transition strategy. Which is my main problem with DDB and is the number one reason I want him gone (and would have fired him after the Minnesota loss to try and salvage the season). The stretch pass and the lack of puck support in any area of the ice. 

 

This is something that is only visible to an extent on television, where the camera shows one zone at a time. I've been very fortunate this season and have doubled my lifetime sabres-games-attended. Bylsma's systemic failures are so easy to see when you're sitting up high at the game. When our defensemen recover a puck, the wingers leave the zone. Sometimes they'll stay just on the outside of the blue line, but that's often as close as they get. Many times they almost approach the other blue line. The center roves in a C shape, through the neutral zone and sometimes dipping into the top of the defensive zone, but the defensemen choose to pass to the wingers most of the time. And no matter how much space is in front of them they seem to prefer to make the pass, though 55,29, and 47 will sometimes carry. This jives with the "puck moves faster when passed than when skated" and "play fast hockey while making the defensemen turn" philosophies that Dan likes. But as I've said before, these passes are low-percentage plays. They're hard to fit into the tiny windows give from that far away, and the forwards are often stopped waiting for them because the defenseman hesitates and waits for that window to open. When the forward is stopped, he either is incredibly easy to snuff out and gives the puck away, or the pass isn't in his wheelhouse and he can only chip it in. Either way, going after it from a stand-still, combined with the often-seen 1-2-2, is why our possession numbers are complete trash and why our even strength play has been a disaster of epic proportions. There are a few D&C teams in the upper-half of possession metrics, most notably the Kings, so it's not inherently bad, though you need to be built for it. I don't think we are and many more teams find success with full team transition emphasizing puck support and possession.

 

The other way we enter the zone, which combined with D&C and C&C makes up probably 97% of our transition plays, is the puck-carry. Jack does it often. In fact: 

He's really good at getting into the zone. It's unfair to expect other players to be this successful, and that's why Kane, Foligno, Gionta etc. try this and often fail and have to dump around the boards once they get 3 feet into the zone. So do teams load up on Jack Eichels? Is that how teams play puck possession systems? We just need to tank six more times? Nah. Puck support! Full team transition! Derek Ryan can do this with Nordstrom and Jordan Staal. Our players aren't too stupid, or not skilled enough. They can make short passes in transition to guys who strategically hit gaps and draw defensemen to create other gaps. They're NHL players. And if one were to argue that they aren't skilled enough for this, then why are we relying on them for even lower percentage stretch pass plays instead? Those require way more skill to make and receive than what I ask for, so that argument goes nowhere. We're asking our team to do more difficult things than the things that are most successful at building transition hockey. 

 

If we replaced each stretch pass attempt that doesn't try and spring either breakaways or 2-on-1s with this style of play, our possession numbers would be greater than even and our even strength scoring would go up, and we wouldn't even need to alter the times we dump and chase. Just forecheck with more players during a wider variety of game situations, especially against teams with poor defense. 

 

It's hard for me to really describe exactly how this support works, but for example, the first two periods of the Winnipeg game were brutal because their defense hadn't broken down yet and wasn't giving us zone entries by backing off or turning the puck over. When they got the puck, all four lines had players getting open nearby, creating those mini odd man rushes that allowed for a pass into space to enter the zone, or space to get the puck in and then find that lane or that supporting player. We don't provide our guys with that support. Our players have obviously never learned how to do this effectively. 

 

This lack of puck support knowledge and practice manifests itself several ways. An example from last night: There were two situations in which Jack Eichel had the puck and was aiming to enter, or had just entered the toronto zone on the right wing. One time, two Leafs swarmed him, the second time three did. Jack and Dan and everyone else in the building knows that this means there are open players and space available somewhere. But they were nowhere to be found. Nobody was anywhere near Jack. They didn't know where they were either. Reinhart. Sam Reinhart isn't too dumb to understand puck support. They just haven't practiced puck support at any point in the last two seasons. Pittsburgh fans will tell you often that this was their biggest problem with Dan too. Jack got snuffed out and the Leafs went the other way. Babcock knows that they can do that against us and there's no way for us to burn them for it. 

 

A second manifestation: There's no puck support for the defensemen and that's why they stretch pass. Their only "safety valve" is the other D-man, which is quite often Bogosian, Falk, Gorges, someone who won't make the best decision with the puck. Knowledgeable and good teams take this away from us and watch us chip it off the boards right back to them. 

 

When our players improvise and try to give puck support, we often see a phenomenon that gets talked about here every time it happens, a third manifestation. They're on top of each other. Two Sabres still on the boards next to each other, not sure what to do, the guy with the puck will try and give it to the other because "I guess here you go?" and they often lose it or mishandle it. Or, if the player tries to go the other way, the other team is the one waiting for it because our guys are on top of each other. They just don't know and just haven't practiced how to do this. It's not a part of Dan Bylsma hockey the way it is for other NHL teams. It didn't exist in Pittsburgh and it doesn't here, but it does where there's a Peters, a Babcock, a Boudreau, a Trotz, a Quenneville. We need to find a coach that does these things, because this is how possession hockey is played and possession hockey is the best predictor of regular season success, playoff success, cups. More than GF or GA. More than +/-. The numbers confirm what the eyes say is obvious. And we have the skill to do it with success, with a great power play and many offensive weapons. We aren't ready to be a cup contender but there are much less talented teams in better positions in the league standings today.

 

And how do we explain the success the Sabres sometimes see, with more than just "It's the NHL and anything can happen on any night"? Well I went to the Stars game. They directly handed us, from their stick to the goal scorer's, two of our three goals, not counting the empty netter. In a nutshell, when the opposing defense is bad, we get a lot more opportunities than when it's good and efficient with the puck. When the latter happens we can't create. So, we play hockey that's built on limiting the other team and trying to capitalize on their mistakes, even though you can still capitalize on their mistakes when you prioritize creating your own chances. Bylsma knows when the opponent's defense is bad. Against Dallas he regularly activated the second and even sometimes the third forward in the forecheck and we saw success in forcing those errors. I saw the left-wing-lock more than one time, too, when Dallas had the puck. The issue is that we do the same things when we play competent and elite defenses, and even take our foot off the forecheck a bit. It's beyond frustrating at this point. 

Those Eichel stats up there. Imagine him doing this with proper puck support, in systems designed to hold and create with the puck. When we get a coach that focuses on and teaches these things, there is nothing stopping Jack Eichel from being in the Art Ross discussion most of his career. I believe it is imperative that we get a new coach in for next season, because sticking with Bylsma is sticking with sub .400 win percentage. Sure, he'll get fired when we start that way next season, but then next season is lost too and the ELCs are done. He can't be here when next season starts. He's never changed and he will not change. I can live with lineup differences, I plan on hating the lineups for 50 games every season no matter who coaches this team. I will complain about them for every coach. It will never be why I want them fired. That rests on player development and successful systems. 

 

Intentionally-low-event-hockey that produces a terrible record depresses this entire fanbase. 

Edited January 18, 2017 by Randall Flagg

[RazielSabre]

I realize that Lehner has always been a bit of a hothead, but it's always been directed toward the other team until now. In my opinion, Lehner's behavior last night following the benching is indicative of a head coach with a very tenuous command of the team. Rumors of Eichel being unhappy with the coach don't surprise me. Dan Abysmal should be fired no later than the end of this lost season.

 

Best nickname so far.

 

I still blame Regier for a lot of this teams problems, he asset stripped the team and wasn't talented enough to really get us much for it. Not surprisingly, I really loathe him. GMTM isn't faultless, he hasn't done a good job giving us a good defence as an example. Rather than him though I blame a lot more of our issues at Bylsma's feet. His style of hockey is boring to watch (if your a bad team, at least make the game entertaining!) and doesn't seem to work with his players. On top of this he seems to stick to random assets like Grant or the Gorges - Risto D pairing. I'd like to see what these kids can do and I really don't believe he is getting the most out of them.

 

Biggest problem is I don't see a situation in which his fired at the end of this season. GMTM will stick with him for at least one more season. Look how long we had to stick with Ruff/Regier. Comparing us to the Leafs though is tough, they have Babcock and Lou which we can't compete with. On top of that they, as has been mentioned, have a decade's worth of reasonable assets. We have barely any assets from before GMTM (even then Girgs is invisible and Grigo is gone).

[Randall Flagg]

Best nickname so far.

 

I still blame Regier for a lot of this teams problems, he asset stripped the team and wasn't talented enough to really get us much for it. Not surprisingly, I really loathe him. GMTM isn't faultless, he hasn't done a good job giving us a good defence as an example. Rather than him though I blame a lot more of our issues at Bylsma's feet. His style of hockey is boring to watch (if your a bad team, at least make the game entertaining!) and doesn't seem to work with his players. On top of this he seems to stick to random assets like Grant or the Gorges - Risto D pairing. I'd like to see what these kids can do and I really don't believe he is getting the most out of them.

 

Biggest problem is I don't see a situation in which his fired at the end of this season. GMTM will stick with him for at least one more season. Look how long we had to stick with Ruff/Regier. Comparing us to the Leafs though is tough, they have Babcock and Lou which we can't compete with. On top of that they, as has been mentioned, have a decade's worth of reasonable assets. We have barely any assets from before GMTM (even then Girgs is invisible and Grigo is gone).

Woah. I remember you.

[darksabre]

Great post Flagg. You read my mind on what I was seeing last night. When our forwards are too far away from the defenders to catch a pass in stride, we build up no speed in the neutral zone, and then we don't hit the offensive zone fast enough to back the D up. Basic hockey strategy says that breakouts start lower in the zone and rely on strong side to weak side puck movement to clear. Why Dan thinks he needs to coach this team to do something that doesn't work at all is beyond me. Either the defense needs to be more mobile and carry the puck out, or the forwards need to come back into the zone a little more to help add some speed to the transition. We know our defense is suspect, so the only option is to have our forwards supporting. 

[SwampD]

But for two awful goals, his system would have worked, too.

 

 

And at one point, TO went 11 minutes without a SOG.

 

 

Just sayin'.

[Taro T]

But for two awful goals, his system would have worked, too.

 

 

And at one point, TO went 11 minutes without a SOG.

 

 

Just sayin'.

But for 1 awful goal, the Sabres lose by 2. Just sayin'. ;)

[darksabre]

But for two awful goals, his system would have worked, too.

 

 

And at one point, TO went 11 minutes without a SOG.

 

 

Just sayin'.

You just love making excuses.

[Randall Flagg]

But for two awful goals, his system would have worked, too.

 

 

And at one point, TO went 11 minutes without a SOG.

 

 

Just sayin'.

Yeah, Toronto has a terrible defense. We've outplayed them both games this year. We've done a good job on their forwards in the neutral zone. They're the type of team we've been regularly finding success against this season. The problem is that we win less than 40% of our games, because that's about how many teams play defense poorly enough to allow us to be successful with what we do.