It's time to dump some bad players if possible

[GASabresIUFAN]

 I think you are making my point, he is producing and should be traded while he has some value. You want to trade assets that are not part of your future plans when you can get something for them, not when they are scoring 8 goals in the entire season. They've built Moulson up probably as far as they can. Now trade him for an asset and get rid of that contract!

 

I get it though, it would be nice for the Sabres to contend for a play-off spot this year, they still might if they can get back Jack and ROR stay healthy.  Though, Im still in the camp where development is more important that winning at the moment. 

 

Is Matt Moulson on the roster when this team is a contender? 

 

Moulson could very well be part of the team when we are a contender if he keeps contributing.  22% of the goals scored in the NHL last season were on the PP.  Last year NJ scored 28% of their goals on the PP and Ottawa the least at 16.5%.  This year Buffalo is leading (sadly) at 33%.  So lets just use the 22% for reference.  If a team can expect to get 22% of it's offense from the PP, is it really such a horrible idea to have a PP specialist on the team?  PP specialists aren't unusual, but they are usually offensively gifted D like Mark Streit.   We are already committed financially to Moulson @ $5 for 2 more seasons after 2016-17.  If he continues on this pace, he would have a 40 pt season, which in NHL $ terms is worth 4 to 4.5 per season, I'd argue he produced at least decent value on his contract.    

 

Now that is a good post. ^

 

 

Oh the stats don't refute your argument per say, I just view them differently in light of the team sucking overall.

 

I'm confused. you agree the stats support my argument.  You like facts that show how consistently bad these guys have been for 2 seasons.  Does this mean my argument isn't garbage after all, but possibly based on reason, logic and fact?

Edited November 17, 2016 by GASabresIUFAN

[MattPie]

Moulson could very well be part of the team when we are a contender if he keeps contributing.  22% of the goals scored in the NHL last season were on the PP.  Last year NJ scored 28% of their goals on the PP and Ottawa the least at 16.5%.  This year Buffalo is leading (sadly) at 33%.  So lets just use the 22% for reference.  If a team can expect to get 22% of it's offense from the PP, is it really such a horrible idea to have a PP specialist on the team?  PP specialists aren't unusual, but they are usually offensively gifted D like Mark Streit.   We are already committed financially to Moulson @ $5 for 2 more seasons after 2016-17.  If he continues on this pace, he would have a 40 pt season, which in NHL $ terms is worth 4 to 4.5 per season, I'd argue he produced at least decent value on his contract.    

 

 

I'm confused. you agree the stats support my argument.  You like facts that show how consistently bad these guys have been for 2 seasons.  Does this mean my argument isn't garbage after all, but possibly based on reason, logic and fact?

 

Those stats certainly show the team has been terrible for the last two years. Whether that's the fault of the D players is less certain; same coach, same talent issues up and down the roster (last year rookies and lesser players, this year injuries). I think the same system as well. It could be the players, but it could be other things as well.

[Andrew Amerk]

Drain the Swamp. Sadly, it may be need to be done on the Sabres and Bills also. These franchises are not exactly moving forward.

 

The good news is that I think the Sabres have pieces. Reinhart, Eichel, ROR, Okposo and Larsson up front, although Reinhart has miles to go before he is an elite player. McCabe and Risto on the blueline, and I like this goalie tandem although both have holes in their games. However the rest could be changed out tomorrow. This few players is pretty hard to swallow 4 years into the rebuild.

 

No I'm not a Kulikov or Bogosian fan. Both were puck movers when entering the NHL. Both are big and fast and both sound on paper like a solution. However, neither has displayed those skills on a consistent basis. Bogo has never learned to play D and his point production has trended down since entering the NHL (career highs 10g and 30pts) and he can't stay healthy. Kulikov has learned to be more physical and play some D, but his production has disappeared completely after diminishing in FLA (Career hi 8 g and 28 pts; 1g and 17 pts last year). Neither of these guys are worth anything near where they are being paid. We are only stuck with Kulikov until the trade deadline, but Bogosian is another issue. If I had to keep one, I'd side with Kulikov.

 

The problem is finding a solution. Nelson is a 5/6 at best. Guhle is a Jr and no one else internally is close. Fowler or Shattenkirk might come available, but price will be steep. I'm not really sure what to do except maybe tank it again and see what the lottery and the trade deadline might bring, because even with Eichel, this team isn't going anywhere.

 

The Bills are another matter.

So, your YUGE idea is to keep our best players, and get rid of everyone else?

Edited November 17, 2016 by Andrew Amerk

[qwksndmonster]

So, your YUGE idea is to keep our best players, and get rid of everyone else?

Hey, don't make yuge a Trump thing. Bernie says yuge. My dad says yuge.

[LGR4GM]

Moulson could very well be part of the team when we are a contender if he keeps contributing. 22% of the goals scored in the NHL last season were on the PP. Last year NJ scored 28% of their goals on the PP and Ottawa the least at 16.5%. This year Buffalo is leading (sadly) at 33%. So lets just use the 22% for reference. If a team can expect to get 22% of it's offense from the PP, is it really such a horrible idea to have a PP specialist on the team? PP specialists aren't unusual, but they are usually offensively gifted D like Mark Streit. We are already committed financially to Moulson @ $5 for 2 more seasons after 2016-17. If he continues on this pace, he would have a 40 pt season, which in NHL $ terms is worth 4 to 4.5 per season, I'd argue he produced at least decent value on his contract.

 

 

I'm confused. you agree the stats support my argument. You like facts that show how consistently bad these guys have been for 2 seasons. Does this mean my argument isn't garbage after all, but possibly based on reason, logic and fact?

No, I said the stats alone don't refute your argument. The teams bad. Why would I expect them to have great stats? You think they are bad because of the 3 defenders you've singled out. I think they are bad because the system is and the forwards are young and can't help out as much as they should.

 

If I could trade Moulson for anything of value I consider it. He won't get 40pts this year and he certainly won't get 40pts in each of the final 2 years. Kyle Okposo can fill that pp spot when jack and Ryan return. Clear 5 mil from the books of you can Murray.

Those stats certainly show the team has been terrible for the last two years. Whether that's the fault of the D players is less certain; same coach, same talent issues up and down the roster (last year rookies and lesser players, this year injuries). I think the same system as well. It could be the players, but it could be other things as well.

That was my point. Thank you. Edited November 17, 2016 by LGR4GM

[Jsixspd]

The goal isn't to be a play-off bubble team it is to build a cup contender. Is Matt Moulson a part of the team when that day comes ?

 

 

I agree with this litmus test - but - it would basically gut the present lineup.  Eichel, Reinhart,  O'Reilly, Risto, Okposo -  check. Lehner - maybe  - though he's a human sieve during shootouts and concerned about his durability.    

 

The rest?   Hard to picture a Cup run including the rest of this team.   Or even the COACH for that matter.  

 

And that's my main criticism of the rebuild so far - too little, too slowwwww.  We want a quick and aggressive rebuild - not faltering haltering steps, wheel spinning, and slowly chipping away at the team's deficiencies with a 10-15 year plan.   We had plenty of that from the Regier Regime.  Want a lean, mean Chicago-like rebuilt - 3 to 4 years and you're there!

Edited November 17, 2016 by Jsixspd

[GASabresIUFAN]

The broader question now is is this season salvageable?  Eichel coming back would solve the lack of a decent D group.  It won't solve a lack of production from the 3rd and 4th lines.  It won't solve the lack of D depth in the organization.  

 

We are a cap team right now and might be the worst team in the NHL.  This is on GMTM.  

The following guys are UFA after this season: Nilsson, FRANSON, Gionta, KULIKOV, McCormick, plus Grant, Falk, COR and Fedun

The following guys are RFA after this season: FOLIGNO, GIRGENSONS, LARSSON, LEHNER, Rodrigues, Ullmark, Catenacci and Schneider 

The following guys have 1 year left (UFA) after this season: KANE (5.25), Deslauriers (.775), Gorges (3.9)

RFA with one year left are: EICHEL, REINHART, Baptiste, Carrier, Fasching, Bailey, Nelson and Kasdorf.

 

Other then Lehner, Larsson, and maybe Foligno, Nilsson or Ullmark, this team can live without any of the others including Girgensons,  These injuries were his big chance and he has done nothing with the opportunity. Of the one year left guys (UFAs) time to see what, if anything we can get for them.  None are part of the future.  

[jad1]

I agree with this litmus test - but - it would basically gut the present lineup.  Eichel, Reinhart,  O'Reilly, Risto, Okposo -  check. Lehner - maybe  - though he's a human sieve during shootouts and concerned about his durability.    

The rest?   Hard to picture a Cup run including the rest of this team.   Or even the COACH for that matter.  

And that's my main criticism of the rebuild so far - too little, too slowwwww.  We want a quick and aggressive rebuild - not faltering haltering steps, wheel spinning, and slowly chipping away at the team's deficiencies with a 10-15 year plan.   We had plenty of that from the Regier Regime.  Want a lean, mean Chicago-like rebuilt - 3 to 4 years and you're there!

Chicago's rebuild was a lot longer than 3 or 4 years. Keith was drafted in 2002. Seabrook was drafted in 2003. Without the two of them they don't win the Cup in 2010.

[Crusader1969]

The broader question now is is this season salvageable?  Eichel coming back would solve the lack of a decent D group.  It won't solve a lack of production from the 3rd and 4th lines.  It won't solve the lack of D depth in the organization.  

 

We are a cap team right now and might be the worst team in the NHL.  This is on GMTM.  

The following guys are UFA after this season: Nilsson, FRANSON, Gionta, KULIKOV, McCormick, plus Grant, Falk, COR and Fedun

The following guys are RFA after this season: FOLIGNO, GIRGENSONS, LARSSON, LEHNER, Rodrigues, Ullmark, Catenacci and Schneider 

The following guys have 1 year left (UFA) after this season: KANE (5.25), Deslauriers (.775), Gorges (3.9)

RFA with one year left are: EICHEL, REINHART, Baptiste, Carrier, Fasching, Bailey, Nelson and Kasdorf.

 

Other then Lehner, Larsson, and maybe Foligno, Nilsson or Ullmark, this team can live without any of the others including Girgensons,  These injuries were his big chance and he has done nothing with the opportunity. Of the one year left guys (UFAs) time to see what, if anything we can get for them.  None are part of the future.  

 

 

That's where we disagree completely, the broader question is how do we become a cup contender? This season means very little to me, the Sabres are still in their rebuild and its going to take a lot of patience. 

 

Also, I think Eichel and ROR coming back does solve the scoring on the 3rd line as guys slide back down to their proper spots in the line-up. They were supposed to "tread water" till Eichel returned and they were doing that until ROR got hurt.

 

I also don't think that at full strength they are near the bottom of the league. They are probably somewhere in the middle, ready to fight for the wildcard but not good enough to get there.  Most -certainly not deep enough to withstand the injuries they have.

 

I have no issue of bidding adieu to Girgensons.

[GASabresIUFAN]

That's where we disagree completely, the broader question is how do we become a cup contender? This season means very little to me, the Sabres are still in their rebuild and its going to take a lot of patience. 

 

Also, I think Eichel and ROR coming back does solve the scoring on the 3rd line as guys slide back down to their proper spots in the line-up. They were supposed to "tread water" till Eichel returned and they were doing that until ROR got hurt.

 

I also don't think that at full strength they are near the bottom of the league. They are probably somewhere in the middle, ready to fight for the wildcard but not good enough to get there.  Most -certainly not deep enough to withstand the injuries they have.

 

I have no issue of bidding adieu to Girgensons.

 

Eichel, Okposo, ROR, Reinhart, McCabe, Risto, Larsson and maybe Lehner are part of the solution this season and beyond.  Moulson is a definite maybe,as he is already under contract.  The rest are part of the problem both short term and long-term. (Ok maybe not Gionta, but at 38 what's his future?)  You want to build a contender, but which of the non-listed players do you see on a contender?  Kulikov? Bogo? Kane?  Ennis? Florida traded Kulikov for a reason and they are closer to being a championship team then we are.  Kane, Bogo and Ennis, even if they were playing OK, can't stay healthy.  You can't pay 15 mill for 3 guys who can't stay on the ice.

 

My thesis earlier was the treading water like last year, but now that I've seen what this team really looks like I'm moving toward tank again and see what we get.  I expected Girgensons and some of the young wingers to step up and other then Baptiste I've seen no one that looks like a top 6 forward.  Fasching, Bailey, Baptiste, Rodrigues, and Carrier have played 29 games for the Sabres this season and have 2 pts (both Baptiste goals) and that's it.  AHL vets Grant and Schneider have played 19 games with 3 assists total.   I'm saying now, dump what you can, get another high pick, and use cap space to pick off players from cap strapped teams.  Tanking this year might actually get us closer to a championship in the future then trying to put band-aids on a poorly constructed team.

[Jsixspd]

Chicago's rebuild was a lot longer than 3 or 4 years. Keith was drafted in 2002. Seabrook was drafted in 2003. Without the two of them they don't win the Cup in 2010.

Perhaps everyone has a different definition of when a 'rebuild' starts.  I'm using GM and coach.  For Chicago, it was was 4 seasons from when Tallon took over(2005-06), until the team made the playoffs. 1 partial season for their HC, Quenneville.

 

 By 2008-09,  in 4 seasons, the roster is ENTIRELY different, from 2003-04,  as is the HC.  I just compared rosters side by side.  Totally different.    A complete rebuild in 4 seasons.  And they were vastly improved by season 3 of Tallon, coming close to .500.  

 

We need the team to have a winning record by next season, or else I think the rebuild (year 4) can be considered a failure if they can't even squeak into a WC by then.  Year 3 we should at least be approaching .500;  we're already 7 games below .500.     Chicago Blackhawks turned it around in 4 seasons.   Tim Murray said his rebuild would be FASTER than 5 years.  I plan to hold him to that commitment.  

Edited November 18, 2016 by Jsixspd

[Crusader1969]

Eichel, Okposo, ROR, Reinhart, McCabe, Risto, Larsson and maybe Lehner are part of the solution this season and beyond.  Moulson is a definite maybe,as he is already under contract.  The rest are part of the problem both short term and long-term. (Ok maybe not Gionta, but at 38 what's his future?)  You want to build a contender, but which of the non-listed players do you see on a contender?  Kulikov? Bogo? Kane?  Ennis? Florida traded Kulikov for a reason and they are closer to being a championship team then we are.  Kane, Bogo and Ennis, even if they were playing OK, can't stay healthy.  You can't pay 15 mill for 3 guys who can't stay on the ice.

 

My thesis earlier was the treading water like last year, but now that I've seen what this team really looks like I'm moving toward tank again and see what we get.  I expected Girgensons and some of the young wingers to step up and other then Baptiste I've seen no one that looks like a top 6 forward.  Fasching, Bailey, Baptiste, Rodrigues, and Carrier have played 29 games for the Sabres this season and have 2 pts (both Baptiste goals) and that's it.  AHL vets Grant and Schneider have played 19 games with 3 assists total.   I'm saying now, dump what you can, get another high pick, and use cap space to pick off players from cap strapped teams.  Tanking this year might actually get us closer to a championship in the future then trying to put band-aids on a poorly constructed team.-

 

I don`t think any of those young players are tapped to be in the future top 6 players. They are going to be very good 3rd and 4th liners who provide excellent depth one day.

 

 

Here is the top 6 eventually in my mind

 

Nylander, Eichel, Samson

Empty, ROR, Okposo

 

maybe one of them step up to fill the ``empty`but I dont think they do. If i was to guess who in the organization could become a top 6 winger -I`ll say Cliff Pu. If he keeps up the pace of approximately 2 points per game in the OHL and you look at guys who have been able to score at that pace, you are looking at a list of bonafide NHLers and usually top 6  talent.

 

I agree with your assement of vets who are on my contender. I think they all will be gone before that time happens. Maybe Bogosian could have a role. Still think he is a good 2nd pair dman.  Kulikov probably wont be around past this season but I would have no issue with him on the team.

 

Its not time to dump guys like Kane, Ennis and such. they have little value if they aren`t scoring or playing. Moulson is playing and kind of scoring so get what you can for him. Put Kane on a line with Eichel (when he comes back) build him up as much as you can then trade him too.

[Marvelo]

Drain the Swamp. 

 

I know Pegula has built up the city of Buffalo with his projects but the man has been fielding rotten team after rotten team with both franchises. I think he's clearly in over his head as an owner of one pro sports team let alone two. First time I saw him he was crying about Gil Perreault. Was he also crying when he begged Lafontaine to take over? We know how that ended. Watch him speak it seems like the lights are out upstairs, soft as a grape.  I think Pegula is the big problem with the Sabres. He is one of the dumbest and unluckiest owners in sports, behind maybe an Arte Moreno of the Angels. I wish he would give up the teams to 2 smart owners who know about their respective pro sports.

Edited November 19, 2016 by Marvelo

[JJFIVEOH]

Eichel, Okposo, ROR, Reinhart, McCabe, Risto, Larsson and maybe Lehner are part of the solution this season and beyond.  Moulson is a definite maybe,as he is already under contract.  The rest are part of the problem both short term and long-term. (Ok maybe not Gionta, but at 38 what's his future?)  You want to build a contender, but which of the non-listed players do you see on a contender?  Kulikov? Bogo? Kane?  Ennis? Florida traded Kulikov for a reason and they are closer to being a championship team then we are.  Kane, Bogo and Ennis, even if they were playing OK, can't stay healthy.  You can't pay 15 mill for 3 guys who can't stay on the ice.

 

My thesis earlier was the treading water like last year, but now that I've seen what this team really looks like I'm moving toward tank again and see what we get.  I expected Girgensons and some of the young wingers to step up and other then Baptiste I've seen no one that looks like a top 6 forward.  Fasching, Bailey, Baptiste, Rodrigues, and Carrier have played 29 games for the Sabres this season and have 2 pts (both Baptiste goals) and that's it.  AHL vets Grant and Schneider have played 19 games with 3 assists total.   I'm saying now, dump what you can, get another high pick, and use cap space to pick off players from cap strapped teams.  Tanking this year might actually get us closer to a championship in the future then trying to put band-aids on a poorly constructed team.

 

Florida traded Kuli because they were concerned about re-signing him. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

Florida traded Kuli because they were concerned about re-signing him.

 

Actually that's not exactly true. They moved out all D that had mediocre possession numbers or didn't drive offense. They dumped Gudbranson for Jared McCann, traded Kulikov to us for Pysyk who was cheaper but also had better possession numbers. They also let Campbell walk (I think age was a factor here). Beside Pysyk, they added Demers and Yandle and opened a roster spot for Petrovic.

 

Their new GM Tom Rowe is supposed to be more into advanced stats then Dale Tallon, and his two Ast GM's are big time stat guys according to media reports.

[JJFIVEOH]

Actually that's not exactly true. They moved out all D that had mediocre possession numbers or didn't drive offense. They dumped Gudbranson for Jared McCann, traded Kulikov to us for Pysyk who was cheaper but also had better possession numbers. They also let Campbell walk (I think age was a factor here). Beside Pysyk, they added Demers and Yandle and opened a roster spot for Petrovic.

 

Their new GM Tom Rowe is supposed to be more into advanced stats then Dale Tallon, and his two Ast GM's are big time stat guys according to media reports.

 

Tallon/Rowe like to get their re-signings done as soon as possible. They have a gauge as to what is going to happen with new contracts well before they're due to be signed. They were concerned about signing Kuli and didn't want it to be a distraction mid-season. They also needed the cap space to finish all the signings they did in the offseason. That's why Gudbranson was shipped off. 

 

They didn't let Campbell walk, he didn't want to come back. Campbell even said his wife wanted back in Chicago even if it meant a pay cut. 

[matter2003]

Dump the coach.

 

He has stifled our offense for a year and a half now...I mean we are worse this year than during the tank seasons when we had literally nobody playing for us...

 

It's an embarrassment and regardless of who is on or out of the lineup we have more talent than 11 goals in 9 games...

 

He is killing us right now...Jesus Christ, do we have sit back in our own zone all game? Our D is not the strong point of this team, our forwards are, coach to our strength not our weaknesses

[Crusader1969]

Actually that's not exactly true. They moved out all D that had mediocre possession numbers or didn't drive offense. They dumped Gudbranson for Jared McCann, traded Kulikov to us for Pysyk who was cheaper but also had better possession numbers. They also let Campbell walk (I think age was a factor here). Beside Pysyk, they added Demers and Yandle and opened a roster spot for Petrovic.

Their new GM Tom Rowe is supposed to be more into advanced stats then Dale Tallon, and his two Ast GM's are big time stat guys according to media reports.

How's that working for them? They are probably the leagues biggest disappointment

Dump the coach.

He has stifled our offense for a year and a half now...I mean we are worse this year than during the tank seasons when we had literally nobody playing for us...

It's an embarrassment and regardless of who is on or out of the lineup we have more talent than 11 goals in 9 games...

He is killing us right now...Jesus Christ, do we have sit back in our own zone all game? Our D is not the strong point of this team, our forwards are, coach to our strength not our weaknesses

Wrong thread