It's time to dump some bad players if possible

[LGR4GM]

Matt Moulson powerplay cherry picker. Trade him while he has value

[Wyldnwoody44]

Kane should not be long term.

 

O reiley, eichel, Reinhardted, and risto... Probably McCabe and Larsson should be kept here as a core group.

 

Everyone else is available at this point, and honestly reino is available for the right return, at least for me.....

[bunomatic]

No. That is the simplest way I can answer to this. We need 10mil in cap space for what? This isn't the offseason, there isn't some big UFA to go get. Also who fills the spot left by... oh dear god, you want to dump 3 defenders and possibly a 4th. Bogosian, Franson, Gorges, and Kulikov, you want all of them gone? Come on this is a ridiculous thread start. You even note we don't have the players to replace them in the system. Cap dumping players for a "bag of pucks" is blatant asset mismanagement and demonstrates a complete lack of understanding how good those players actually are.

 

I am curious to know how many points you think a teams middle 3 defenders should contribute? You are mad at 20-35points because that isn't enough but what should they get? 50? 60? 80 points? What would be good. This teams problem is not the defense. It is an offensive system predicated on shooting from low percentage areas to maintain offensive zone possession. 

I agree. we're all armchair G.M.s to a certain degree but this thread is a kneejerk response to losing. Blow it all up ?

I say stay the course and make rational well thought out decisions that improve the team. It takes time.

[Thorner]

I think many on this forum tend to overvalue what a 2/3 D-man should be in this league.More and more responsibilities are placed on defenseman today than ever before, with more playing time and only three lines to split time. Expectations are too high whether you're a bottom dwelling team or a Cup contender. Look around, probably 95% of all the teams in the league have a 2/3 that is equivalent to Bogo.

The most important qualification for D man in this league, is to actually be a D man in the league, i.e. actually suiting up and playing.

 

I've grown tired of Bogosian being a walking injury waiting to happen.

[inkman]

Matt Moulson powerplay cherry picker. Trade him while he has value

This. He's the only one outside of Nilsson who has increased their stock since last. Move Matt ASAP. Let the kid wings fight it out.

[qwksndmonster]

I'm not a fan of Bogo, but he's been a solid #4 for us this year. He's really cut down on the mental errors compared to last year. Unfortunately, he's still good for 20 games missed every year.

[JJFIVEOH]

Yup, we can't win games right now in a year projected to be on the playoff bubble. 15 games into the season, let's get rid of the players that are actually producing. Fantastic logic.

[Kristian]

I'll never understand the Bogo hate. I guess once the whipping boy status starts fermenting, it never goes away. I just don't get it. But we should get rid of him, we all know the massive surplus this league has in quality defensemen. It should be no big problem picking up a good 2/3 D-man. Hell, let's pick up five of them while we're at it. 

 

How about we work on the depth before we work on the top. It's not the top guys that are hurting this team, it's the lack of depth. Priorities, people, priorities. 

This board needs a "like" button.

[Crusader1969]

Yup, we can't win games right now in a year projected to be on the playoff bubble. 15 games into the season, let's get rid of the players that are actually producing. Fantastic logic.

The goal isn't to be a play-off bubble team it is to build a cup contender. Is Matt Moulson a part of the team when that day comes ?

 

I would say no. I would go even further to say that his contract may actuallly be a hindereance to them when that time comes ( if it isn't a hindereance already)

 

What was Moulsons trade value when we came into this season? I would say pretty close to none.

 

Is he part of PP1 when Eichel and ROR are in the lineup? Again that's a no. So is there a good chance that he again loses all value? I would say yes.

 

Trade him now while you can get something for him. Maybe you can get a piece that will be part of the team when you are a cup contender. You are being shortsighted if you keep him because he is one of the very few producing now.

 

It kinda the logic of sell high - buy low. Don't be caught holding the bag when he again has no value

Edited November 15, 2016 by Crusader1969

[JJFIVEOH]

The goal isn't to be a play-off bubble team it is to build a cup contender. Is Matt Moulson a part of the team when that day comes ?

 

I would say no. I would go even further to say that his contract may actuallly be a hindereance to them when that time comes ( if it isn't a hindereance already)

 

What was Moulsons trade value when we came into this season? I would say pretty close to none.

 

Is he part of PP1 when Eichel and ROR are in the lineup? Again that's a no. So is there a good chance that he again loses all value? I would say yes.

 

Trade him now while you can get something for him. Maybe you can get a piece that will be part of the team when you are a cup contender. You are being shortsighted if you keep him because he is one of the very few producing now.

 

It kinda the logic of sell high - buy low. Don't be caught holding the bag when he again has no value

6 goals in 15 games isn't bringing his value up any higher than it was in May.

 

And I have to disagree. The goal isn't to lose any more, it's actually time to win. You're not going to get anything of value for Moulson. You have a restless fan base, you don't go getting rid of what little offense you have only to get nothing in return.

 

Again, he still has no value.

Edited November 15, 2016 by JJFIVEOH

[Taro T]

6 goals in 15 games isn't bringing his value up any higher than it was in May.

And I have to disagree. The goal isn't to lose any more, it's actually time to win. You're not going to get anything of value for Moulson. You have a restless fan base, you don't go getting rid of what little offense you have only to get nothing in return.

Again, he still has no value.

If he has no value, there will be no trade. IF he's ever going to have value, it is at present when he's actually finally scored a 5v5 goal & is still on a 30 goal pace. We all know he isn't going to be this successful on this team when the troops are all back. But maybe somebody else would want a pp specialist to play on their 4th line. Have to believe TM's at least looking into it.

[JJFIVEOH]

If he has no value, there will be no trade. IF he's ever going to have value, it is at present when he's actually finally scored a 5v5 goal & is still on a 30 goal pace. We all know he isn't going to be this successful on this team when the troops are all back. But maybe somebody else would want a pp specialist to play on their 4th line. Have to believe TM's at least looking into it.

Trust me, I see where you and Crusader (I can't multi quote on the phone) are coming from. I'm not saying either of us are right or wrong. At this point I just don't see any reason to not be doing anything but trying to win. Trading Moulson just sends the wrong message to the players and the fans. As bad as they've looked for a few games, they aren't that far out of a playoff spot. Even if Moulson has 20 goals at the deadline, I still don't see Murray getting anything significant enough to help the team in the long run.

 

Plus, there is a modified no-trade clause in the contract. Moulson ain't going nowhere unless he agrees to it.

[Sabel79]

Trust me, I see where you and Crusader (I can't multi quote on the phone) are coming from. I'm not saying either of us are right or wrong. At this point I just don't see any reason to not be doing anything but trying to win. Trading Moulson just sends the wrong message to the players and the fans. As bad as they've looked for a few games, they aren't that far out of a playoff spot. Even if Moulson has 20 goals at the deadline, I still don't see Murray getting anything significant enough to help the team in the long run.

 

Plus, there is a modified no-trade clause in the contract. Moulson ain't going nowhere unless he agrees to it.

Plus which, nobody outside of Arizona is taking that contract, and then only if he promises never to actually play for them. 

[JJFIVEOH]

Plus which, nobody outside of Arizona is taking that contract, and then only if he promises never to actually play for them.

Exactly.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Trust me, I see where you and Crusader (I can't multi quote on the phone) are coming from. I'm not saying either of us are right or wrong. At this point I just don't see any reason to not be doing anything but trying to win. Trading Moulson just sends the wrong message to the players and the fans. As bad as they've looked for a few games, they aren't that far out of a playoff spot. Even if Moulson has 20 goals at the deadline, I still don't see Murray getting anything significant enough to help the team in the long run.

Plus, there is a modified no-trade clause in the contract. Moulson ain't going nowhere unless he agrees to it.

Correct. If Moulson was having this bounce back season in the midst of an entire team that was performing, then I could see trying to move him if you could find a taker. However, with so much dead weight on this roster, why would you dump one of your few performing assets? It's not like we are going to get a top 4 D or 1st rd pick for him that would improve the roster given his age and contract.

[LGR4GM]

It's time to get rid of players eating cap space who aren't contributing.  At this point it's addition by subtraction.

 

1) Once they are healthy, Bogo and Kane need to go.  We need get what ever we can for them now even if it's just a bag of pucks,  $10 mill in cap savings will be a good thing.

2) Gorges - I'm not sure there is any market for him, but maybe a playoff team could use him at the deadline.

3) Franson - again a deadline type trade. (granted he is coming off the books by season's end anyway)

 

Moving these "players" would add nearly 17 million in relative cap space for the season giving Murray the room to go after talent at the deadline or in the off-season like Fowler or Shattenkirk.  

 

Correct. If Moulson was having this bounce back season in the midst of an entire team that was performing, then I could see trying to move him if you could find a taker. However, with so much dead weight on this roster, why would you dump one of your few performing assets? It's not like we are going to get a top 4 D or 1st rd pick for him that would improve the roster given his age and contract.

So which is it? We need to dump players for nothing but bags of puck and cap space or we need to keep anyone who is doing anything? 

[Crusader1969]

Correct. If Moulson was having this bounce back season in the midst of an entire team that was performing, then I could see trying to move him if you could find a taker. However, with so much dead weight on this roster, why would you dump one of your few performing assets? It's not like we are going to get a top 4 D or 1st rd pick for him that would improve the roster given his age and contract.

 

He is only producing because he is on the PP1. When Eichel and ROR come back he wont have that role and his production will go down the chute.

 

Trade him now to a team desperate for Power Play help, eat a portion of his contract if you have to. I can guarantee, be it later this year or or next, there will be a time when we all wish we traded Moulson and his contract when they had a chance. 

Exactly.

 

Btw, Arizona would be a perfect trading partner, they are loaded with prospects.

[GASabresIUFAN]

It's both obviously. The D I mentioned at the start of this thread are producing nothing of benefit for this team and need to be moved and replaced hopefully with more productive players and that is where the cap space comes in. The goal is to filter out the non-productive assets. Moving out a productive asset dosen't make any sense if you are trying to move forward. Why is this so hard for you to understand.

 

Lets see if I can put the concepts another way so that you can understand. Franson, Kane, Kulikov, Gorges, Bogosian and Moulson all earn between 3 and 5.25 mill per season. They earn about $26 million of our cap hit. So tell me which of these players, if any, are producing close to their cap hit.

1) Moulson - cap hit $5 mill. 3rd on the team in scoring, 6 goals lead the Sabres.

2) Kane - $5.25 cap hit, 5 games no points, -5, lost 17 games to injury last year, 40+ games the year before and anpther 10 games this season already. You can add the off-season issues as well.

3) Bogosian - $5.143 cap hit, like Kane, injured again for the 3rd straight year, no pts ytd for a puck mover, -20 since joining the Sabres.

4) Franson - $3.325 cap hit, slow skater that is supposed to add offense. Has 4 pts (2nd on the Sabres D), but no goals. A D zone liability now playing big minutes because of injuries and is -3 since getting non protected minutes. Was down to 11 minutes per game until the D injuries hit.

5) Gorges - $3.9 cap hit. No pts in 16 games and -37 since joining the Sabres. At least he provides leadership.

6) Kulikov - $4.333 cap hit. No pts and -4 for an all around D.

 

As to Moulson and the PP. It's a vaild point, but how bad would our team be performing if Moulson and the PP weren't adding the offense.

Edited November 16, 2016 by GASabresIUFAN

[Crusader1969]

It's both obviously. The D I mentioned at the start of this thread are producing nothing of benefit for this team and need to be moved and replaced hopefully with more productive players and that is where the cap space comes in. The goal is to filter out the non-productive assets. Moving out a productive asset dosen't make any sense if you are trying to move forward. Why is this so hard for you to understand.

 

Lets see if I can put the concepts another way so that you can understand. Franson, Kane, Kulikov, Gorges, Bogosian and Moulson all earn between 3 and 5.25 mill per season. They earn about $26 million of our cap hit. So tell me which of these players, if any, are producing close to their cap hit.

1) Moulson - cap hit $5 mill. 3rd on the team in scoring, 6 goals lead the Sabres.

2) Kane - $5.25 cap hit, 5 games no points, -5, lost 17 games to injury last year, 40+ games the year before and anpther 10 games this season already. You can add the off-season issues as well.

3) Bogosian - $5.143 cap hit, like Kane, injured again for the 3rd straight year, no pts ytd for a puck mover, -20 since joining the Sabres.

4) Franson - $3.325 cap hit, slow skater that is supposed to add offense. Has 4 pts (2nd on the Sabres D), but no goals. A D zone liability now playing big minutes because of injuries and is -3 since getting non protected minutes. Was down to 11 minutes per game until the D injuries hit.

5) Gorges - $3.9 cap hit. No pts in 16 games and -37 since joining the Sabres. At least he provides leadership.

6) Kulikov - $4.333 cap hit. No pts and -4 for an all around D.

 

As to Moulson and the PP. It's a vaild point, but how bad would our team be performing if Moulson and the PP weren't adding the offense.

 

 I think you are making my point, he is producing and should be traded while he has some value. You want to trade assets that are not part of your future plans when you can get something for them, not when they are scoring 8 goals in the entire season. They've built Moulson up probably as far as they can. Now trade him for an asset and get rid of that contract!

 

I get it though, it would be nice for the Sabres to contend for a play-off spot this year, they still might if they can get back Jack and ROR stay healthy.  Though, Im still in the camp where development is more important that winning at the moment. 

 

Is Matt Moulson on the roster when this team is a contender? 

[LGR4GM]

Haha lol I understand perfectly what you want. You think if a player isn't producing goals they should go. You think a guy like Moulson who is useless at even strength is worth keeping because he produces even though he doesn't. You think on a team producing 1 goal a game the defense is a major problem.

 

My real problem is you don't understand your argument is simplistic, ignores stats outside of points, and wants every defender not named Risto and McCabe traded for nothing while keeping the pp leach that is Moulson.

Edited November 16, 2016 by LGR4GM

[GASabresIUFAN]

Where are all these great stats that show how wonderful defensively these guys are?  I shown how they suck offensively and suck defensively, yet you keep saying I'm wrong,  Prove it!  I've researched their tiem on ice, their Corsi, Fenwick, goals scored while they are on the ice both for and against and all the stats say these 4 D stink and are over paid.  

Edited November 16, 2016 by GASabresIUFAN

[MattPie]

Where are all these great stats that show how wonderful defensively these guys are?  I shown how they suck offensively and suck defensively, yet you keep saying I'm wrong,  Prove it!  I've researched their tiem on ice, their Corsi, Fenwick, goals scored while they are on the ice both for and against and all the stats say these 4 D stink and are over paid.  

 

I think most people feel there are bigger system and structural issues and with the team than the players on D. Those structural issues could also account for those terrible numbers you're looking at.

[LGR4GM]

Where are all these great stats that show how wonderful defensively these guys are? I shown how they suck offensively and suck defensively, yet you keep saying I'm wrong, Prove it! I've researched their tiem on ice, their Corsi, Fenwick, goals scored while they are on the ice both for and against and all the stats say these 4 D stink and are over paid.

Yes but what those stats relative to the team? That's what I am trying to get at. The entire team is garbage right now. Dumping the entire defense won't change that. We need more from the entire team defense to offense

[GASabresIUFAN]

Other then Kulikov, the lousy play by three of the 4 D I mentioned were bad last year also.  They are a significant piece of the problem as to why the team sucks this year and held the team back last year as well.  Adding Kulikov has done nothing.

 

Here are the raw numbers for comparison and remember the core of the team is the same and last year's team was actually without Lehner and Bogo to start the year and was integrating ROR, Kane, Eichel, Johnson, McCabe, Reinhart, McGinn and they were still better then this sorry team

 

2015-16 after 16 games the Sabres were 8-8-0 with 38 goals scored or 2.37 goals per game.  This season 5-7-4 with 30 goals

 

Gorges 2015-2016

16 gm mark 0g-1a -4

41 game mark 1-5 -6

Gorges 2016-17

16 game mark 0-0 -2

 

Franson 2015-16

16 game mark 2-6 -3

41 game mark 3-10 -4

Franson 2016-17

16 game mark 0-4 +1

 

 

Pysyk 2015-16

16 game mark 0-1 +0

41 gm mark 0-1  -1 (injury for much of the 1st half)

Kulikov 2016-17

16 gm mark 0-0 -4

 

Bogosian 2015-16

16 gm mark (out with injury) - Colaiacovo replaced 0-2 +0

41 gm mark 1-4 -10

Bogosian 2016-17

16 gm mark (only 9 played) 0-0 -2

 

These guys didn't contribute last year and again they aren't contributing this year on either end of the ice.  Kulikov hasn't really been an upgrade Pysyk either except for some physical play.  If they were only slumping this season, I'd be more apt to say lets see what happens when we get healthy, but enough is enough.  

 

PS I'm still waiting for those stats that you think refute my argument..........tick.....tick...tick

Edited November 16, 2016 by GASabresIUFAN

[LGR4GM]

Now that is a good post. ^

 

 

Oh the stats don't refute your argument per say, I just view them differently in light of the team sucking overall.