False Accusations of Harassment and Me.

[Hoss]

There are countless people perfectly happy living without rules. Just because you support them, doesn't mean they should apply to all. If we lived by what you consider acceptable, we'd all be living in a bubble.

Lmao I just insisted his claim that we were making rules is false and then you come up with a response about how people can live without rules.

 

Reading comprehension around here is a serious problem. And there's a serious problem with the understand that both sides of an argument are doing the same basic thing from a different angle. If JJ insists he should be allowed to touch any single girl he wants once and I insist he shouldn't we're both proposing a "rule" and guideline by which we believe life should work.

 

I think I'm going to leave here soon. It's just not worth it. I grow tired of these lame discussions and excuses for sleazy behavior.

Edited October 24, 2016 by Hoss

[WildCard]

Well then, don't participate in them, and stick to the point of the board, hockey.

[JJFIVEOH]

I'm not a real aggressive person when it comes to hitting on women. Probably because I usually avoid the airheads and go for the intelligent ones (it's not too difficult to figure it out right off the bat). But, at what point is somebody supposed to draw a line when showing some attraction to another person? I'm not saying grabbing a girl's ass is appropriate (Not saying Eleven did that, his was accidental, this is a hypothetical) but it certainly shouldn't be taken to the level of accusing somebody of harassment. If you're the kind of creep that walks around bars grabbing people's ######, it won't last long. But if you grab somebody's ass and the other person finds it uncomfortable, you say something to let them know you don't like it. Keep repeating the same process, now THAT'S harassment. Of course this applies to after hours scenarios, bars, clubs, etc.............. Grocery store, workplace is a totally different situation.

 

Is it going to get to the point where people will need to sign disclaimers before entering a bar/club? Will it get to the point where you need permission from another person just to talk to them? (Based on how so many people nowadays have their faces buried in their phones in a social environment, it wouldn't surprise me). That might seem far-fetched, but it doesn't seem like a line has been drawn. It appears as though a line keeps getting dropped lower and lower to the point where social interaction will become non-existent. 

 

I spent a couple of hours with an Australian girl the other night, and it's rather humorous how the rest of the world views the American social life. I am a fairly sociable person, but I've gotten to the point where I sometimes don't even waste my time any more. It might explain why I'm not married, lol. 

Really? A-s-s-e-s is censored? But A-s-s isn't..................

 

 

Lmao I just insisted his claim that we were making rules is false and then you come up with a response about how people can live without rules.

 

Reading comprehension around here is a serious problem. And there's a serious problem with the understand that both sides of an argument are doing the same basic thing from a different angle. If JJ insists he should be allowed to touch any single girl he wants once and I insist he shouldn't we're both proposing a "rule" and guideline by which we believe life should work.

 

I think I'm going to leave here soon. It's just not worth it. I grow tired of these lame discussions and excuses for sleazy behavior.

 

What were you saying about reading comprehension?

Don't be upset because we all don't want to live in your socialist fantasy land. 

[WildCard]

Heyy Eleven, any chance we can delete this thing?

[JJFIVEOH]

I don't see anything wrong with it. 

[Taro T]

Heyy Eleven, any chance we can delete this thing?

Why?

[JJFIVEOH]

On a serious note, I wish somebody would grab my ass more often. 

[WildCard]

Why?

We've all had this argument a million times in other various Kane threads and political correctness threads, it does nothing after the original story is told and discussed IMO

 

Not that I mind Eleven posting the original story mind you

[Sabres Fan in NS]

On a serious note, I wish somebody would grab my ass more often. 

 

In my best beer chugging Eich //

 

JJ, I'm coming for ya .........

[LTS]

You don't need to sign a legal form, but you do need to keep your hands to yourself unless and until it becomes clear that you have been invited to do otherwise.

 

Actually, given stories of how people recant their "consent" I think there is a concern by some that you might actually need some form of undeniable proof that you actually had consent before taking any action.  It's certainly not trending in the other direction nor holding even.

 

Bingo. It's a simple as that. Don't touch people without their consent.

 

See above.  When consent can be revoked after the fact it's hard to always know.

 

Flirtatious behavior: saying "hi, I'm JJ" with your vocal cords to an willing participant

 

Harassment: saying "hi, I'm JJ" with your vocal cords to an unwilling participant

 

Predatory behavior: saying "hi, I'm JJ" with your hands or genitals to an unwilling participant.

 

I realize you clear this up later, but you do indeed stoke the fires of this conversation by claiming the second statement.

 

That's totally false, but it also wasn't my intention when I said that.

 

And yet you said it... so you should expect the response and it is not totally false.  I have introduced myself to people at conferences, could you imagine how strange that would be if I was slapped with a harassment lawsuit for saying hello?

 

There was a parent on one of my kids hockey teams who we still call "The Serial Ass Grabber".    So all the hockey mom's wear yoga pants these days.. at least down here in soCal anyway... so ###### are regularly on display, it's just the way it is doesn't give anyone the right grab we all understand that.    Anyway, this one Dad would frequently be seen grabbing another Mom's ass as she stood by the glass watching her kid play... then laugh it off like it's some big joke and just a prank or whatever... like every game and practice he would do a single grab and laugh or whatever as he walked away... she seemed mildly annoyed at it, just kind of play it off as no big deal or whatever.... her husband was rarely around for whatever reason.    

 

Lone behold that guy is no longer allowed at our two local rinks and last we heard his kid with his 4th different hockey program in the last 4 years.... the guys a bigot as well, so we were all glad to see him leave.    AFAIK, nobody ever filled an official complaint with law enforcement, USA Hockey, or what have you, but I can see where women are sensitive to this type of thing because are there are lots of creepy guys out there.    I actually really feel bad for the kid, he's a great player, but his Dad is an ######, so it's sad to see kids in that situation. 

 

As a hockey coach I would have already remove the guy from my program.  I make it clear that parental stupidity will negatively impact their child's enjoyment of the hockey season.  It's hard to enjoy the season when your family isn't allowed at the rink (including the child).  Insane that people would even tolerate that.

 

Pi: that dad is a predator. But also, no, a$$es are NOT "regularly on display" just because these women are wearing yoga pants.

 

I'll argue that point.  Putting your butt in yoga pants is definitely going to call it out more than say sweatpants. This is a given. It is, to a certain degree, putting it on display. The reasons behind why anyone is wearing yoga pants is not relevant.  I don't care.  However, they do define body shape more than other pants.  Now, that said, it still doesn't mean you should be staring at the woman wearing them let alone touching her butt or anything else.  I don't think there's anything wrong with noticing her butt.  In some ways, at times, I wish I could let a woman know that something actually looks good on her without it being construed as creepy.  But, that's the way it is.

 

So many women face insecurities over their appearances and so many who don't fit the preconceived notion of beautiful are beautiful in their own right.  It would be nice to reinforce that to them without being accused of being a sexual miscreant.

I'd encourage the people who have devolved into name calling and degrading commentary to delete their posts or tune them up.  Civil, intelligent discussion should not be discouraged.

A fantastic perspective piece that I believe every male here should read: http://nymag.com/thecut/2016/10/laughing-until-we-cry-conversations-about-getting-groped.html

 

Also.. I read this.  I didn't know what a "credit or debit" was.... it's a sad state of the world that people even consider that kind of behavior acceptable in anything but some kind of sex club where it would be anticipated.

 

It's beyond my comprehension to do something like that.  Thanks for sharing it.

[SHAAAUGHT!!!]

Props to Eleven for taking the high road on a very sensitive subject.  I think you handled yourself perfectly in that situation.  

 

Not to discount the misperceived sexual harassment angle, but this might have been a situation where a group of people where just looking for a reason to be in a fight that night.  That accidental brush against the woman was the trigger they could use to justify arguing with someone and possibly get into a worldstarhiphop video.  Luckily it happened before anyone had too much to drink so we will never know... :flirt:

[Eleven]

Heyy Eleven, any chance we can delete this thing?

 

I don't like to start a dialogue and then terminate it.  If the mods feel it is getting inappropriate and want to lock it, it will not bother me, however.

 

I do wish we could talk about this more civilly.  

 

One thing I'm observing is a significant generation gap.  And I think it works in two ways:

 

1)  People my age were there for the very beginning of things like sexual harassment training.  That stuff wasn't around when I started college, but by the time I left, it was.  Obviously, when a "movement" (for lack of a better word; please understand I've worked 12 hours today!) like that begins, everyone is still trying to figure out what methods succeed and what methods don't.  But people my age didn't grow up with a whole lot of training in respecting the other sex, other than "boys don't hit girls" and "girls don't kick boys there."  People who are younger, they most likely did.

 

2)  On the other hand, people who are a little older certainly have more experience with interpersonal affairs, and the appropriate limits thereof.  I know I can tell within a minute if a woman is interested in carrying on a conversation with me.  (Same for a man.)  There's nothing wrong with investing that minute to find out.  There's also nothing wrong with "hitting on" someone who has a significant other...until you find out.  It shouldn't be a call to violence if a man approaches a woman whose boyfriend is nearby, if the guy didn't know she was with a date.  Anyone my age has been on both sides of that situation innumerable times.  In fact, I don't even think there's anything wrong with a person who KNOWS someone is in a relationship to try to find out whether it's serious/successful enough that the other person doesn't want to consider other people.  Just as long as the answer "no" is respected if that's what comes.

 

I

[JJFIVEOH]

Seriously, I don't see this thread as getting out of hand. It's much more civil than most other forums I'm on.

Eleven, how old are you if I may ask? I will certainly understand if you don't, I'm just curious.

[Eleven]

Seriously, I don't see this thread as getting out of hand. It's much more civil than most other forums I'm on.

Eleven, how old are you if I may ask? I will certainly understand if you don't, I'm just curious.

 

So a lot of people think that my usernameis related to Gilbert Perreault or something anatomical.

 

In reality, it was my age when I signed up for what was then The Sabres Report.

 

So I'm 22.  I just look a little older.

Edited October 25, 2016 by Eleven

[JJFIVEOH]

For some reason I thought you were older than me. Not that it matters, just that after you spend so much time on a forum you tend to estimate ages of the people on the forum based on their posts.

Yes, I know you're not 22. ;)

[Eleven]

For some reason I thought you were older than me. Not that it matters, just that after you spend so much time on a forum you tend to estimate ages of the people on the forum based on their posts.

Yes, I know you're not 22. ;)

 

I'm guessing that if I'm older than you, it's not by much.

 

And, FFS, nfreeman is NOT a baby boomer!  I know you're not the one saying it.

Edited October 25, 2016 by Eleven

[pi2000]

There was the serial ass grabber, and before that there was this much much more serious incident here in Orange County...

 

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013/07/30/oc-mom-sentenced-to-time-served-for-molesting-sons-hockey-teammate-13/

 

...my kids were not involved, they were much younger at that time, but I know people who had family members involved and coaches.  It wasn't a one time incident, it was going on for months apparently.

 

In the early 90's, when I was in college, I was sexually harassed by my older sisters friend.   I was living in the dorms at the time and she would show up out of the blue and try to break into our room, kept calling our room non-stop (this was before cell phones) and would physically assault me when she had the chance and it wasn't just an ass grab.   It went on for weeks and didn't stop until I threatened to call the police.   My sister thought it was funny and my friends blamed me for it.   Times have changed.

[JJFIVEOH]

I'm guessing that if I'm older than you, it's not by much.

 

And, FFS, nfreeman is NOT a baby boomer! I know you're not the one saying it.

You are correct.

There was the serial ass grabber, and before that there was this much much more serious incident here in Orange County...

 

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013/07/30/oc-mom-sentenced-to-time-served-for-molesting-sons-hockey-teammate-13/

 

...my kids were not involved, they were much younger at that time, but I know people who had family members involved and coaches. It wasn't a one time incident, it was going on for months apparently.

 

In the early 90's, when I was in college, I was sexually harassed by my older sisters friend. I was living in the dorms at the time and she would show up out of the blue and try to break into our room, kept calling our room non-stop (this was before cell phones) and would physically assault me when she had the chance and it wasn't just an ass grab. It went on for weeks and didn't stop until I threatened to call the police. My sister thought it was funny and my friends blamed me for it. Times have changed.

Now see, that is harassment if not predatory. That was not a one time deal.

[Eleven]

There was the serial ass grabber, and before that there was this much much more serious incident here in Orange County...

 

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013/07/30/oc-mom-sentenced-to-time-served-for-molesting-sons-hockey-teammate-13/

 

...my kids were not involved, they were much younger at that time, but I know people who had family members involved and coaches.  It wasn't a one time incident, it was going on for months apparently.

 

In the early 90's, when I was in college, I was sexually harassed by my older sisters friend.   I was living in the dorms at the time and she would show up out of the blue and try to break into our room, kept calling our room non-stop (this was before cell phones) and would physically assault me when she had the chance and it wasn't just an ass grab.   It went on for weeks and didn't stop until I threatened to call the police.   My sister thought it was funny and my friends blamed me for it.   Times have changed.

 

That is horrible.  He was freaking 13.

 

I'll say this, if she were a man named anything other than "David Frost," it would have been a lot longer than 16 months.

 

There's still that double standard, you know, the boy must have liked it.  And I'm aware of the "she was asking for it" double standard on the other side, too.

Edited October 25, 2016 by Eleven

[spndnchz]

As a mod I don't mind this thread at all. As a victim of predatory behavior I'm unsure.

[Eleven]

As a mod I don't mind this thread at all. As a victim of predatory behavior I'm unsure.

 

I am sorry that you've been through that.

 

Most women I know or knew have, too.  Probably all, actually.  So I understand why someone may have been aggressive with me on Saturday.  I certainly don't know her personal history.

 

I guess that just because most women have experienced it doesn't mean that most men DO it?

[spndnchz]

I am sorry that you've been through that.

 

Most women I know or knew have, too.  Probably all, actually.  So I understand why someone may have been aggressive with me on Saturday.  I certainly don't know her personal history.

 

I guess that just because most women have experienced it doesn't mean that most men DO it?

It's the level it escalates to, as some have mentioned upthread. If I was that women you brushed against and you responded the way you did I wouldn't be letting my friends harass you.

[Eleven]

It's the level it escalates to, as some have mentioned upthread. If I was that women you brushed against and you responded the way you did I wouldn't be letting my friends harass you.

 

I don't know you IRL, but from what I've read, that you've written, I believe this to be true.

[Drunkard]

Actually, given stories of how people recant their "consent" I think there is a concern by some that you might actually need some form of undeniable proof that you actually had consent before taking any action.  It's certainly not trending in the other direction nor holding even.

 

 

See above.  When consent can be revoked after the fact it's hard to always know.

 

 

Can you expound on this whole recanting of consent issue you're talking about? Are you talking about false reports that stem from "regret sex" or are you talking about a scenario where consent is initially given to "fool around" for lack of a better term (kissing, touching, whatever) and then the woman decides to stop it at some point before actual sex starts or even right in the middle of it?

 

I work in this field and I can tell you that the first scenario I described is rare (maybe 1 or 2 per year out of hundreds of cases investigated by our stats) and the second part is completely within the rights of both parties. Either side has full right to stop or tell the other person to stop at any point.

Edited October 25, 2016 by Drunkard

[LTS]

Can you expound on this whole recanting of consent issue you're talking about? Are you talking about false reports that stem from "regret sex" or are you talking about a scenario where consent is initially given to "fool around" for lack of a better term (kissing, touching, whatever) and then the woman decides to stop it at some point before actual sex starts or even right in the middle of it?

 

I work in this field and I can tell you that the first scenario I described is rare (maybe 1 or 2 per year out of hundreds of cases investigated by our stats) and the second part is completely within the rights of both parties. Either side has full right to stop or tell the other person to stop at any point.

 

Certainly.  I am not talking about any scenario where consent is revoked during the course of action.

 

I would say it fits into your "regret sex" category.  That said, it's not so much how often it occurs, it's the capacity for it to occur that was more my point.  The simple fact is that consent can be revoked after the encounter and the problems that can be caused when it happens.  My point was, because of that it almost feels like you get to the point where you have to have some level of signed documentation or irrefutable proof to avoid the possibility.

 

Again, not that is happens often.  Just that it can and if you are assigning risk to situations you have to account for the possibility.