False Accusations of Harassment and Me.

[TrueBlueGED]

Yikes. Sorry about this 11.

 

As for whether it's relevant to the Kane situations: IMHO it is, for the exact reason someone said upthread: false accusations happen quite often, whether it's part of a shakedown, because some foolish person wants to be an SJW, or otherwise.

 

Rape is a terrible crime, and lesser sexual assault is absolutely not OK either -- but the unfortunate occurrence of those offenses throughout history does not justify a presumption of guilt whenever a woman accuses a man of something.

 

It's also with noting that if 11 were a college student and this happened, he'd be facing a high risk of significant disciplinary action, with no ability to cross-examine the complainant, call witnesses, be represented by counsel, etc.

 

Yep.

 

No more than does the occurrence of false accusations justify a presumption of a false accusation.

 

This is painting with waaaaaay too broad of a brush. It's also worth noting that the accuser has no greater rights in these matters than the accused--it's not like the accuser gets a prosecutor and the ability to tee-off as the accused curls into a fetal position in the corner. Not everywhere has the exact same policy, but the colleges I have worked at (and I have no reason to believe other SUNY schools differ meaningfully):

 

-The accused is presumed innocent.

-The accused does have the right to call witnesses.

     --True that there is no cross-examination of the accuser's witnesses, but again, the accuser cannot cross the accused's witnesses either.

     --However, both sides are allowed to submit questions to the panel they wish to be asked of the other side and other side's witnesses.

-The accused is assigned an advocate to assist through the process, and can hire legal counsel if desired. 

     --True, said legal counsel cannot serve as an official representative, but the same is also true for the accuser.

-Previous records of sexual relations, accusations and/or "convictions" and/or mental health assessments are not admissible prior to the sanctions stage, and it's not set in stone they will be admissible during the sanctions stage.

-Right to present evidence at the hearing.

-Right to appeal decision.

 

Given the events Eleven describes, if taken to a college for a formal complaint, there is no objective way to conclude he'd be at "high risk" for "significant" disciplinary action. He'd be at a pretty low risk to even get a warning out of this.

 

Eleven, I'm sorry this happened, truly. It sucks that it ruined your night and could have become something much larger than it should have been. But I'm pretty tired of people pretending there's some general and massive dearth of due process on college campuses.

Edited October 23, 2016 by TrueBlueGED

[biodork]

Geez... that's effed up. I can't for the life of me figure out what those girls were thinking! Yes, things get misconstrued and maybe she thought you were trying to cop a feel instead of realizing it was an honest mistake. But when it only happened once and you made no further attempt to interact with or contact any of them, why make such a scene over nothing? I had a guy full on grab my butt (with both hands) at a crowded club once, and while that certainly was NOT an accident, I also never saw the guy and it didn't happen again, so I wasn't about to let it ruin my night, casing the joint for one creep who decided to get handsy.

 

Edit: For the record, I agree with Hoss and PA regarding the thread title. The Kanes were accused of far more serious actions, and while it is certainly possible those were false accusations, I don't think it's fair to draw a comparison with your experience tonight.

Edited October 23, 2016 by biodork

[JJFIVEOH]

I'm still deciding whether or not to get involved.

[Eleven]

Geez... that's effed up. I can't for the life of me figure out what those girls were thinking! Yes, things get misconstrued and maybe she thought you were trying to cop a feel instead of realizing it was an honest mistake. But when it only happened once and you made no further attempt to interact with or contact any of them, why make such a scene over nothing? I had a guy full on grab my butt (with both hands) at a crowded club once, and while that certainly was NOT an accident, I also never saw the guy and it didn't happen again, so I wasn't about to let it ruin my night, casing the joint for one creep who decided to get handsy.

 

Edit: For the record, I agree with Hoss and PA regarding the thread title. The Kanes were accused of far more serious actions, and while it is certainly possible those were false accusations, I don't think it's fair to draw a comparison with your experience tonight.

 

In the light of day (well, ok, it's not even close to light yet), this probably is right.

 

Still, I woke up in the middle of the night angry.  Feeling victimized.  Probably not going back to sleep any time soon.

Nothing good happens at 8:45.

 

This is funny.  Thanks.

[Neo]

I am truly happy this ended, if not well, better than the terrible way it could have ended for you. Inadvertently brushing a person, especially a man brushing a woman, is as scary, today, as inadvertently losing a tire at 60 mph used to be.

 

I am grateful your credible voice shared this "other side of the coin" view. Incidents like you describe happen 1,000 times more frequently than actual assault and deliberate slaps. Back in the day, we resolved them ourselves. I'm a declinist.

 

There was more than one strident narrative, repeated mantra like, staring you in the face.

 

Before any offense or outrage is manufactured, I'll provide the following. Real Assault Is Real Bad. We are in an environment where you're wise to actually express the obvious rather than be falsely accused of being part of the problem. Wading chin deep in narrative results in that.

 

Returning to Eleven ... in the two minutes it took me to write this, I grew even happier that nothing resulted of the accusation. Kafka and Josef K come to mind.

Nothing good happens at 8:45.

This made me laugh!

I'm still deciding whether or not to get involved.

You are the first person I thought of when reading all the well wishes sent Eleven's way. Edited October 23, 2016 by N'eo

[Eleven]

Neo, Real Assault IS Real Bad.  No doubt about it.

[sodbuster]

I had a similar situation occur a few years ago. Anybody familiar with Brockport knows Barbers, and how small and crowded it is. Luckily, the bouncer (who coincidentally was in an on campus club with me) was also working the night before when the same group of womyn pulled the same stunt. I got really lucky and the situation was dead after five minutes, and I could go on with my night.

[Hoss]

I am grateful your credible voice shared this "other side of the coin" view. Incidents like you describe happen 1,000 times more frequently than actual assault and deliberate slaps.

By this do you mean incidents where women claim they were sexually assaulted after an accidental graze/bump or just that accidentally bumping people happens more than actual assault? The latter is true, the former is not and is an archaic view of sexual assault.

[Neo]

By this do you mean incidents where women claim they were sexually assaulted after an accidental graze/bump or just that accidentally bumping people happens more than actual assault? The latter is true, the former is not and is an archaic view of sexual assault.

In reverse order:

 

The latter - we both agree this is true.

 

The former - I'll let you read Eleven's tale and debate with him. He may object to to the conclusion that his "archaic view" had anything to do with his plight or his description of same.

 

For clarity: I hope it's clear that not each of the 1,000 accidental bumps turn into an accusation. Was that the disconnect? That wouldn't be archaic, but it would be "reading into a sentence that which was not there". See my next post -

Edited October 23, 2016 by Neo

[SwampD]

By this do you mean incidents where women claim they were sexually assaulted after an accidental graze/bump or just that accidentally bumping people happens more than actual assault? The latter is true, the former is not and is an archaic view of sexual assault.

So, to use another archaic view, I guess you are saying that "Eleven was asking for it."

 

I'll say it. What happened to eleven happens more than actual assault, or at least at the same level. (In my world view there are just as many awful women as there are awful men.)

[Neo]

Presumptuous DEFENSE of Hoss ... he may have been asking if I meant "incidents like you describe" include both accident and accusation. I was referring to the accident, alone. The after-math is seed into fertile ground. I can't assign proportions.

Edited October 23, 2016 by Neo

[LTS]

Forgive me for asking this if it was covered in one of the threads regarding the Kane situations.

 

Was there video evidence of the events that happened?  I seem to recall claims that in the Evander Kane scenario there were but at the same time it's not been leaked nor has it led to his conviction.

 

The reason I ask is that if you take Eleven's experience and you expand on it just a little bit you can get to a pretty bad place quite quickly.

 

So, let's try this.

 

You graze her butt.  Normal escalation occurs until someone realizes who you are (or they knew already) and then decides to get a group of friends to begin escalating even further and making greater claims.  Why?  Well, the criminal charges aside (they don't care) they will bring a personal lawsuit and hope to shake you down for money.

 

Don't read into this as me saying that's what happened in the Kane situations.  But honestly, given what Eleven outlined is it really a stretch to believe that could happen if he were someone a bit more famous?

 

We live in a world where people make up all kinds of stupid crap (see: Lochte, Ryan). We live in a world where people fake injury, fake handicap, and set up stupid videos (America's Funnest Videos)  in an attempt to get some benefit.  Are we then really saying that in this one particular situation its unquestionable?  We've seen far more serious accusations be proven to be untrue.

 

In any situation the only thing I'd want is the truth.  The truth doesn't play sides. 

 

Eleven - all I know is the situation you outlined sucks. It's going to eat at you.  Don't let it. Talk more hockey.

[Neo]

When I first saw the thread title, I thought we might be discussing "three guys who think high quality NHL centers are critical to my well being."

[Neo]

You graze her butt. Normal escalation occurs until someone realizes who you are (or they knew already) and then decides to get a group of friends to begin escalating even further and making greater claims. Why? Well, the criminal charges aside (they don't care) they will bring a personal lawsuit and hope to shake you down for money.

Put a helmet and flack jacket on.

 

I refer you to the "Excoriation of JJ" thread and its twin, the "Standing Against the Righteously-Wrong Tide" thread.

 

Your hypothetical was slut shaming and victim blaming a short time ago. Well, it wasn't really shaming or blaming at the time any more than it is today, but that's another matter ...

Edited October 23, 2016 by Neo

[Hank]

Put a helmet and flack jacket on.

I refer you to the "Excoriation of JJ" thread....

That thread is a very interesting read a year later, I highly recommend it.

[nfreeman]

No more than does the occurrence of false accusations justify a presumption of a false accusation.

 

This is painting with waaaaaay too broad of a brush. It's also worth noting that the accuser has no greater rights in these matters than the accused--it's not like the accuser gets a prosecutor and the ability to tee-off as the accused curls into a fetal position in the corner. Not everywhere has the exact same policy, but the colleges I have worked at (and I have no reason to believe other SUNY schools differ meaningfully):

 

-The accused is presumed innocent.

-The accused does have the right to call witnesses.

     --True that there is no cross-examination of the accuser's witnesses, but again, the accuser cannot cross the accused's witnesses either.

     --However, both sides are allowed to submit questions to the panel they wish to be asked of the other side and other side's witnesses.

-The accused is assigned an advocate to assist through the process, and can hire legal counsel if desired. 

     --True, said legal counsel cannot serve as an official representative, but the same is also true for the accuser.

-Previous records of sexual relations, accusations and/or "convictions" and/or mental health assessments are not admissible prior to the sanctions stage, and it's not set in stone they will be admissible during the sanctions stage.

-Right to present evidence at the hearing.

-Right to appeal decision.

 

Given the events Eleven describes, if taken to a college for a formal complaint, there is no objective way to conclude he'd be at "high risk" for "significant" disciplinary action. He'd be at a pretty low risk to even get a warning out of this.

 

Eleven, I'm sorry this happened, truly. It sucks that it ruined your night and could have become something much larger than it should have been. But I'm pretty tired of people pretending there's some general and massive dearth of due process on college campuses.

 

If you're tired about hearing about the dearth of due process in these cases, the solution is not to shout down the other side -- it's to help improve a terrible situation -- which you can do, at least, by not pretending that the problem doesn't exist.

 

As to whether the problem exists, and its scope -- what is your response to the numerous false accusation incidents that have received national attention in recent years?  (Auburn, Columbia, UVA, Findlay, etc.).  In those cases there was nothing remotely resembling due process.

 

Leaving aside the question of whether your "not having any reason to believe" other colleges handle these matters differently from UB has any kind of analytical significance (and, BTW, the new "Title IX Coordinator" -- there's a compelling use of our tax dollars -- recently declared that the reason that sexual assault data at Albany didn't come close to supporting her views on the prevalence thereof was because students were under-reporting assaults), even the process you describe at UB, which you seem to feel represents good due process, is deeply flawed. 

 

Not having the right to cross-examine the accuser or to be represented by counsel at the hearing, or to introduce evidence relating to a prior sexual history between the accuser and the accused or a history of other similar accusations, are simply insurmountable problems that result in a lack of due process.  The evidentiary standard  is also a critical issue -- and I would bet that UB utilizes the president's favored "preponderance" standard, which is really no standard a-tall.

[Hoss]

Presumptuous DEFENSE of Hoss ... he may have been asking if I meant "incidents like you describe" include both accident and accusation. I was referring to the accident, alone. The after-math is seed into fertile ground. I can't assign proportions.

That was my question and you are correct. The accident happens far more, but false accusations are not more common than actual assaults (unless you want to include "hey, did you just touch my ass?" "No" "okay" as a legitimate accusation).

[Neo]

If you're tired about hearing about the dearth of due process in these cases, the solution is not to shout down the other side -- it's to help improve a terrible situation -- which you can do, at least, by not pretending that the problem doesn't exist.

 

As to whether the problem exists, and its scope -- what is your response to the numerous false accusation incidents that have received national attention in recent years? (Auburn, Columbia, UVA, Findlay, etc.). In those cases there was nothing remotely resembling due process.

 

Leaving aside the question of whether your "not having any reason to believe" other colleges handle these matters differently from UB has any kind of analytical significance (and, BTW, the new "Title IX Coordinator" -- there's a compelling use of our tax dollars -- recently declared that the reason that sexual assault data at Albany didn't come close to supporting her views on the prevalence thereof was because students were under-reporting assaults), even the process you describe at UB, which you seem to feel represents good due process, is deeply flawed.

 

Not having the right to cross-examine the accuser or to be represented by counsel at the hearing, or to introduce evidence relating to a prior sexual history between the accuser and the accused or a history of other similar accusations, are simply insurmountable problems that result in a lack of due process. The evidentiary standard is also a critical issue -- and I would bet that UB utilizes the president's favored "preponderance" standard, which is really no standard a-tall.

I read about universities and their commitment to due process. Our Constitution calls for it and our laws reflect the Constitution.

 

I'll pause here for the "it's not always perfect" commentary and add "nothing is". .... .... There, pause complete, I continue ..

 

I'd ask the university what rationale exists to establish a parallel justice system for activity that is a crime? Why are lower standards of evidence required? Why are certain defenses excluded? Why are some crimes adjudicated in this separate system, and some crimes not?

 

Asked another way, what is missing in the criminal justice system such that sexual assault, one heinous crime among others, demands its own tribunal, excludes certain defenses, and has lower standards for guilt? I have my suspicions of well intended, ill informed, individuals. It rhymes with "we're not seeing the outcomes in the criminal justice system that our narrative demands so we'll create another system and stack the deck."

 

I attended two freshman orientations with my kids. I saw sexual assault discussed by a panel, role played, and acted out in a small play/performance. Afterward, I feared more for my son than for my daughter. My fear had nothing to do with my assessment of his profound and fundamental goodness.

 

Cue Skippy.

 

Had Patrick Kane been a football star at UB, and not an NHL hockey player outside the university system, what would his plight have been? What would Eleven's fate have been at UB?

Edited October 23, 2016 by Neo

[Hoss]

So, to use another archaic view, I guess you are saying that "Eleven was asking for it."

 

I'll say it. What happened to eleven happens more than actual assault, or at least at the same level. (In my world view there are just as many awful women as there are awful men.)

Probably accurate but this doesn't mean anything here. And false accusers are NOT as bad as actual predators.

 

Statistically speaking DOCUMENTED false accusations are nowhere near the same level of actual assaults (reported and unreported).

[SwampD]

Probably accurate but this doesn't mean anything here. And false accusers are NOT as bad as actual predators.

 

Statistically speaking DOCUMENTED false accusations are nowhere near the same level of actual assaults (reported and unreported).

How do you know? Eleven's went unreported.

 

I also wonder if the numbers change depending on the fame of the person. Famous people being targets is a real thing.

[dudacek]

And false accusers are NOT as bad as actual predators.

Removing violent rape from the equation, Id like to see this examined further.

Is having your butt grabbed worse than what happened to Eleven?

[Hoss]

Removing violent rape from the equation, Id like to see this examined further.

Is having your butt grabbed worse than what happened to Eleven?

There are several steps between rape (all rape is violent, for the record) and a butt grab. I do think grabbing somebody's butt without permission is worse than an accusation that doesn't involve police. An actual false public accusation that crosses into legal territory is worse.

 

The women weren't wrong for wondering if their friend got assaulted... They were wrong for their persistence and refusal to back off after Eleven apologized and explained.

[dudacek]

I remember having my butt grabbed 20 years ago by an older acquaintance and feeling very uncomfortable.

I reacted with some disgust and went on with my night. The fact I still remember it pretty clearly means it had some significance to me.

 

I've never experienced what Eleven describes, but I find his situation far more threatening and scary.

[Neo]

 

Given the events Eleven describes, if taken to a college for a formal complaint, there is no objective way to conclude he'd be at "high risk" for "significant" disciplinary action. He'd be at a pretty low risk to even get a warning out of this.

 

Eleven, I'm sorry this happened, truly. It sucks that it ruined your night and could have become something much larger than it should have been. But I'm pretty tired of people pretending there's some general and massive dearth of due process on college campuses.

Phew ... that's comforting. If one reaches for his wallet, there's little chance of significant disciplinary action, and only a low risk risk for an embarrassing public warning. Thank heavens for due process!

 

Kangaroos have their processes. What's the raison d'être for the court?

[MODO Hockey]

WTF! :o