2017 NHL Draft -- General NHL Thread

[Crusader1969]

Is Valimaki really a step below that first tier of defenders? I can't decide.

 

 

yes, your top group has elite skaters. What I've read about him, Valimaki needs a lot of work on his skating and Defensive zone play.

[LGR4GM]

yes, your top group has elite skaters. What I've read about him, Valimaki needs a lot of work on his skating and Defensive zone play.

Weird because what I have read and seen, Valimaki is an excellent skater and his only real issue in the defensive zone is he sometimes just dumps the puck out. I wholeheartedly dispute that his skating needs a lot of work and I would argue it needs very little. 

but as I believe you are hinting at something I will answer, I would take Valimaki at #8 over Tippett probably. Valimaki though I think should go in the 12-15 range. Tippett in the 7-11 range seems roughly right unless scouts and gms really hate his lack of defending. 

[Brawndo]

My question is would Erik Brannstrom be worth taking a look at eight. Seems to have similar size and skill set to Cale Makar and some scouts are saying he may be better in the long term.

[GASabresIUFAN]

yes, your top group has elite skaters. What I've read about him, Valimaki needs a lot of work on his skating and Defensive zone play.

I don't where you have read that, but I have read about 10 reports on him and none say what you have written.

 

http://www.thedraftanalyst.com/2017-nhl-draft-headquarters/2017-draft-profiles/2017-nhl-draft-profile-juuso-valimaki/

http://buffalonews.com/2017/06/09/road-nhl-draft-juuso-valimaki/

http://www.dobberprospects.com/juuso-valimaki/

 

Here is just 3 examples. He skates very well. Isn't a dump and chase guy and is responsible in his own zone.

[Crusader1969]

I don't where you have read that, but I have read about 10 reports on him and none say what you have written. http://www.thedraftanalyst.com/2017-nhl-draft-headquarters/2017-draft-profiles/2017-nhl-draft-profile-juuso-valimaki/http://buffalonews.com/2017/06/09/road-nhl-draft-juuso-valimaki/http://www.dobberprospects.com/juuso-valimaki/

Here is just 3 examples. He skates very well. Isn't a dump and chase guy and is responsible in his own zone.

Maybe a lot of work is an overstatement but not nearly in the class of Ligers top 3 dmen. hockey news ranked him 18 and had a scout saying his skating was a bit "surprising". Recrutes draft guide has him at 19 NHL scout quote " watch for his pivoting..he has some difficulty with his mobility". "He can get out of position because pivots and gap control are below par"

. Not saying I don't like him, just saying he isn't in the top tier

[LGR4GM]

I agree he isn't but neither is Tippett

[Crusader1969]

I agree he isn't but neither is Tippett

Tippett is in the top group, if he isn't actually the best as natural goal scorers in the draft.

 

Mckeens hockey rates him with the best shot in the draft and 6th best skater. Tippett has potential to be a first line winger, Valimaki, seems destined to be a 2nd pair dmen. Roll the dice with Tippett. Draft 2 dmen in the 2nd

Tippett is in the top group, if he isn't actually the best as natural goal scorers in the draft.

Mckeens hockey rates him with the best shot in the draft and 6th best skater. Tippett has potential to be a first line winger, Valimaki, seems destined to be a 2nd pair dmen. Roll the dice with Tippett. Draft 2 dmen in the 2nd

 

Should reiterate that I'm drafting Tippett if Makar is gone.

[Thorner]

Tippett is in the top group, if he isn't actually the best as natural goal scorers in the draft.

Mckeens hockey rates him with the best shot in the draft and 6th best skater. Tippett has potential to be a first line winger, Valimaki, seems destined to be a 2nd pair dmen. Roll the dice with Tippett. Draft 2 dmen in the 2nd

 

Should reiterate that I'm drafting Tippett if Makar is gone.

No thanks on Tippett.

 

Would much rather draft Liljegren.

[Crusader1969]

Are we all in agreement that Hischier, Patrick, Heiskanen and Vilardi are the only 4 that we can say 100% will not be there on he board? Anyone else?

No thanks on Tippett.

Would much rather draft Liljegren.

As long as you willing to accept that Liljegrens bust probability is much higher than Tippetts. Tippett will play in NHL and will score goals.

[Thorner]

Are we all in agreement that Hischier, Patrick, Heiskanen and Vilardi are the only 4 that we can say 100% will not be there on he board? Anyone else?

 

As long as you willing to accept that Liljegrens bust probability is much higher than Tippetts. Tippett will play in NHL and will score goals.

In 4 years, maybe. We have a guy who does that now, in Kane. But no one wants to sign him. Let's draft his eventual replacement! It's easy to market "the future".

 

Nevemimd that we have a backlog of right shot forward prospects, the only position in the pipeline with depth already. BPA! D pipeline and left shots be damned.

[dudacek]

Tippett just seems like a me-first player.

Nichushkin all over again. Do not want.

[Crusader1969]

In 4 years, maybe. We have a guy who does that now, in Kane. But no one wants to sign him. Let's draft his eventual replacement! It's easy to market "the future".

Nevemimd that we have a backlog of right shot forward prospects, the only position in the pipeline with depth already. BPA! D pipeline and left shots be damned.

You do know that in 2015 Sabres drafted 4dmen with their 6 picks?Another 4 were drafted in 2016? There is no reason for them to reach with the 8th pick for a dman just to overload the pipe line. They could do very well drafting BPA at 8 and taking 2dmen in the 2nd round

[LGR4GM]

You do know that in 2015 Sabres drafted 4dmen with their 6 picks?Another 4 were drafted in 2016? There is no reason for them to reach with the 8th pick for a dman just to overload the pipe line. They could do very well drafting BPA at 8 and taking 2dmen in the 2nd round

I don't think Tippett will be the BPA at #8.

 

Also Buffalo hasn't drafted defenders in the top 3 rounds much during Murray's tenure here. Highest drafted in the years you mention is 51. Also in 2016: 129.130, 189 were the pick numbers for 3 ood those 4 defenders. At best that means you'll get 2 AHL from those 4 and maybe 1 bottom pair defender.

Edited June 10, 2017 by LGR4GM

[Thorner]

I don't think Tippett will be the BPA at #8.

Also Buffalo hasn't drafted defenders in the top 3 rounds much during Murray's tenure here. Highest drafted in the years you mention is 51. Also in 2016: 129.130, 189 were the pick numbers for 3 ood those 4 defenders. At best that means you'll get 2 AHL from those 4 and maybe 1 bottom pair defender.

Yup.

 

Our D pipeline is completely devoid of likely NHL talents outside of potentially Guhle. There's no overload, unless it's an overload of defencemen unlikely to ever play significant minutes in the NHL.

 

For me, at 8, it's BDA, or trade down.

[Huckleberry]

Personally hope Makar is still there at #8 but doubt he will.   I think we should pick D if Liljegren is still there also.  But wouldn't be to mad with Tippett either.

[LGR4GM]

You do know that in 2015 Sabres drafted 4dmen with their 6 picks?Another 4 were drafted in 2016? There is no reason for them to reach with the 8th pick for a dman just to overload the pipe line. They could do very well drafting BPA at 8 and taking 2dmen in the 2nd round

I wanted to respond to this more in full. 

 

Since 2014 here is the list of defenders taken by Buffalo. I believe it is erroneous to toss out that we draft 8 defenders and our pipeline is full. Keep in mind that the 60th pick is the end of the 2nd round. In 2 years we drafted 1 defender in the 2nd round and everyone else in round 3 or later where the percentage of getting an impact player drops through the bottom. You go from about a 30-35% chance of getting an NHL player in round 2 to a steep dive to around 15% by the end of round 3 and then about a 10% chance going into rounds 6-7.  That doesn't mean you are getting a good NHL player with that 15% that means you are getting someone who plays 100 games. Could be 4th line could be bottom pairing. I would argue that in the last 5 years drafting has changed a lot and these numbers are lower as GM's are better with talent evaluation.

 

2014:

#74 Brycen Martin - might be an AHL player, maybe

 

2015: 

#51 Brendan Guhle - Has a good shot of making the NHL, at least should be an AHL guy

#92 William Borgen - Unknown

#122 Devante Stephens - Unknown

#182 Ivan Chukarov - Unknown

 

2016:

#86 Casey Fitzgerald - Unknown

#129 Philip Nyberg  - Unknown, but I like him

#130 Vojtech Budik - Unknown

#189 austin Osmanski - Unknown

 

The highest guy is Guhle with basically no tangible options behind him because no one was drafted high enough. Most of these guys will never see the AHL. Out of the 9 listed. There is only a reasonable chance of 2 of them playing at least 100 NHL games. Playing the odds we desperately need defenders.

Edited June 10, 2017 by LGR4GM

[Crusader1969]

I wanted to respond to this more in full. 

 

Since 2014 here is the list of defenders taken by Buffalo. I believe it is erroneous to toss out that we draft 8 defenders and our pipeline is full. Keep in mind that the 60th pick is the end of the 2nd round. In 2 years we drafted 1 defender in the 2nd round and everyone else in round 3 or later where the percentage of getting an impact player drops through the bottom. You go from about a 30-35% chance of getting an NHL player in round 2 to a steep dive to around 15% by the end of round 3 and then about a 10% chance going into rounds 6-7.  That doesn't mean you are getting a good NHL player with that 15% that means you are getting someone who plays 100 games. Could be 4th line could be bottom pairing. I would argue that in the last 5 years drafting has changed a lot and these numbers are lower as GM's are better with talent evaluation.

 

2014:

#74 Brycen Martin - might be an AHL player, maybe

 

2015: 

#51 Brendan Guhle - Has a good shot of making the NHL, at least should be an AHL guy

#92 William Borgen - Unknown

#122 Devante Stephens - Unknown

#182 Ivan Chukarov - Unknown

 

2016:

#86 Casey Fitzgerald - Unknown

#129 Philip Nyberg  - Unknown, but I like him

#130 Vojtech Budik - Unknown

#189 austin Osmanski - Unknown

 

The highest guy is Guhle with basically no tangible options behind him because no one was drafted high enough. Most of these guys will never see the AHL. Out of the 9 listed. There is only a reasonable chance of 2 of them playing at least 100 NHL games. Playing the odds we desperately need defenders.

 

If you do the same thing with the Forwards, the 2014 and 2015 draft are basically void of any prospects that you can say will play 100 games in the NHL. (Eichel and Reinhart are no longer prospects)

 

So you basically have Nylander and Asplund who I think you should expect 100 games. then a bunch of unknowns.

 

Take BPA at 8, Hopefully its Makar, if not you take a forward. Nothing wrong with using picks the two picks in 2nd round for D help.

 

 

Tippetts rankings:

 

McKeens Hockey 6th overall

Sportsnet.ca - 4th overall

ESPN - 6th

Future Considerations - 6th

NHL NA skaters - 7th

Internatioinal Scouting - 5th

Recrutes.ca  11th

 

Hockey Propsects #21

Craig Button #23

6 out of 9 publications have him ranked higher than 8th.

Tippett just seems like a me-first player.

Nichushkin all over again. Do not want.

 

why isnt it Phil Kessle again?

[dudacek]

If you do the same thing with the Forwards, the 2014 and 2015 draft are basically void of any prospects that you can say will play 100 games in the NHL. (Eichel and Reinhart are no longer prospects)

 

So you basically have Nylander and Asplund who I think you should expect 100 games. then a bunch of unknowns.

 

Take BPA at 8, Hopefully its Makar, if not you take a forward. Nothing wrong with using picks the two picks in 2nd round for D help.

 

 

Tippetts rankings:

 

McKeens Hockey 6th overall

Sportsnet.ca - 4th overall

ESPN - 6th

Future Considerations - 6th

NHL NA skaters - 7th

Internatioinal Scouting - 5th

Recrutes.ca  11th

 

Hockey Propsects #21

Craig Button #23

6 out of 9 publications have him ranked higher than 8th.

 

why isnt it Phil Kessle again?

From my limited perspective, less of a talent, more of a DB

[LGR4GM]

If you do the same thing with the Forwards, the 2014 and 2015 draft are basically void of any prospects that you can say will play 100 games in the NHL. (Eichel and Reinhart are no longer prospects)

 

So you basically have Nylander and Asplund who I think you should expect 100 games. then a bunch of unknowns.

 

Take BPA at 8, Hopefully its Makar, if not you take a forward. Nothing wrong with using picks the two picks in 2nd round for D help.

 

 

Tippetts rankings:

 

McKeens Hockey 6th overall

Sportsnet.ca - 4th overall

ESPN - 6th

Future Considerations - 6th

NHL NA skaters - 7th

Internatioinal Scouting - 5th

Recrutes.ca  11th

 

Hockey Propsects #21

Craig Button #23

6 out of 9 publications have him ranked higher than 8th.

Im not against taking forwards. I am against taking Tippett. If all 3 defenders go, plus Hischier and Patrick, plus Vilardi. That leaves Glass or Mittlestadt at #8 barring nothing strange happening like Tippett going early or Elias Pettersson going or Martin Necas sneaking in there. There will be better forwards available at #8 and I have no issue taking Mittlstadt or Glass. Tippett though I might take at 12 but at #8 idk, he would have had to impress me in his interview. 

 

As for the other point. We got Reinhart, Nylander, Eichel out of those 3 drafts and they will fill 3 voids in your top 6. We got Guhle out of the same 3 drafts and he might be top 4. We also have ROR and Okposo locked in long term bringing our total to 5 of the 6 top 6 players on the team or in the system (I am giving Nylander the benefit of the doubt). Where as we have Risto, McCabe and ? there isn't any Bailey Baptiste Fasching Carrier Asplund Pu Olofsson behind them. There is Guhle and then a lot of praying. 

 

I am fine with taking a forward and the more I thought the more I don't take Valimaki at #8, just isn't worth it. But I don't think Tippett is either. I think I would rather have Mittlestadt or Glass are better options and will be available. Tippett could go, honestly he would be a decent fit in Arizona but I am not sure their GM would pull that trigger. 

 

I totally agree with you on taking defenders in the 2nd round. This draft has some intriguing 2nd round defense talent that we would be foolish to pass on. I think we see 6-8 defenders go in the 1st and that leave about 4 guys I can name off my head that would be solid in the 2nd. Come on Jokiharju! 

Edited June 10, 2017 by LGR4GM

[Crusader1969]

Im not against taking forwards. I am against taking Tippett. If all 3 defenders go, plus Hischier and Patrick, plus Vilardi. That leaves Glass or Mittlestadt at #8 barring nothing strange happening like Tippett going early or Elias Pettersson going or Martin Necas sneaking in there. There will be better forwards available at #8 and I have no issue taking Mittlstadt or Glass. Tippett though I might take at 12 but at #8 idk, he would have had to impress me in his interview. 

 

As for the other point. We got Reinhart, Nylander, Eichel out of those 3 drafts and they will fill 3 voids in your top 6. We got Guhle out of the same 3 drafts and he might be top 4. We also have ROR and Okposo locked in long term bringing our total to 5 of the 6 top 6 players on the team or in the system (I am giving Nylander the benefit of the doubt). Where as we have Risto, McCabe and ? there isn't any Bailey Baptiste Fasching Carrier Asplund Pu Olofsson behind them. There is Guhle and then a lot of praying. 

 

I am fine with taking a forward and the more I thought the more I don't take Valimaki at #8, just isn't worth it. But I don't think Tippett is either. I think I would rather have Mittlestadt or Glass are better options and will be available. Tippett could go, honestly he would be a decent fit in Arizona but I am not sure their GM would pull that trigger. 

 

I totally agree with you on taking defenders in the 2nd round. This draft has some intriguing 2nd round defense talent that we would be foolish to pass on. I think we see 6-8 defenders go in the 1st and that leave about 4 guys I can name off my head that would be solid in the 2nd. Come on Jokiharju! 

 

no issue at all the Glass or Mittlestadt at 8 either.. I guess my main point was don't reach for a dman at 8. The only 2dmen worth the 8th pick to me are Heisken and Makar.

 

Though the thought of Tippett (best shot and one of the top skaters) and Eichel together, to me, is really intriguing. I would want that line scoring goals not playing D.

Edited June 10, 2017 by Crusader1969

[LGR4GM]

no issue at all the Glass or Mittlestadt at 8 either.. I guess my main point was don't reach for a dman at 8. The only 2dmen worth the 8th pick to me are Heisken and Makar.

 

Though the thought of Tippett (best shot and one of the top skaters) and Eichel together, to me, is really intriguing. I would want that line scoring goals not playing D.

Def shouldn't reach for a guy #8. I think there will be options. 

[Crusader1969]

the big question: is Liljegren a reach at #8? I think he is Which brings me to the Tippett, Glass and Mittlestadt options.

 

Liger, im going to study a few of the D you suggested that could be available in round 2 this weekend.

 

as we sit here today;

 

#1 option trade up to get Heiskanen or Makar, 

#2: take Tippett, Glass or Mittlestandt at 8

#3 trade down and take Liljegren

[LGR4GM]

the big question: is Liljegren a reach at #8? I think he is Which brings me to the Tippett, Glass and Mittlestadt options.

 

Liger, im going to study a few of the D you suggested that could be available in round 2 this weekend.

 

as we sit here today;

 

#1 option trade up to get Heiskanen or Makar, 

#2: take Tippett, Glass or Mittlestandt at 8

#3 trade down and take Liljegren

I don't know about trading down to get Liljegren. I don't see him as sliding but could be wrong. Makar is older than Heiskanen and Liljegren which has some bearing. 

 

Somebody else def needs to look over 2nd round defense. The more eyes and analysis the better. 

Edited June 10, 2017 by LGR4GM

[rakish]

This is what selecting the top rated CSS North American Skater gets you at 8

 

2001 Dan Hamhuis
2002 Steve Eminger
2003 Dustin Brown
2004 Alexander Pickard
2005 Luc Bourdon
2006 Peter Meuller
2007 Keaton Ellerby
2008 Kyle Beach
2009 Jordon Schroeder
2010 Cam Fowler
2011 Dougie Hamilton
2012 Grigorenko
2013 Shinkaruck
2014 Nick Ritchie
2015 Lawson Crouse
2016 Alex Nylander

[LGR4GM]

This is what selecting the top rated CSS North American Skater gets you at 8

 

2001 Dan Hamhuis

2002 Steve Eminger

2003 Dustin Brown

2004 Alexander Pickard

2005 Luc Bourdon

2006 Peter Meuller

2007 Keaton Ellerby

2008 Kyle Beach

2009 Jordon Schroeder

2010 Cam Fowler

2011 Dougie Hamilton

2012 Grigorenko

2013 Shinkaruck

2014 Nick Ritchie

2015 Lawson Crouse

2016 Alex Nylander

Feel like you are trying to say something about CSS rankings...