Leafs rebuild vs Sabres rebuild: Which will be better sooner and which will be better longer?

[SDS]

A possibility is that behind closed doors, maybe FGMTM was less than grace under pressure? It's easy when you are selling assets to collect draft picks. But this was the first year with expectations and perhaps the lack of success revealed weak points in his abilities that weren't a parent in the previous years.

[MattPie]

It the same reason I never understood why Regier was initially retained; why keep the guy if he screwed it up in the first place.

 

The idea was Darcy was competent but limited by budget. That turned out to be wrong, but it's not unreasonable to say that a guy that did OK given limited budgets could be pretty good with more financial resources.

[darksabre]

The idea was Darcy was competent but limited by budget. That turned out to be wrong, but it's not unreasonable to say that a guy that did OK given limited budgets could be pretty good with more financial resources.

And it turns out that perhaps he was better with a limited budget than with no limits. 

[Taro T]

The idea was Darcy was competent but limited by budget. That turned out to be wrong, but it's not unreasonable to say that a guy that did OK given limited budgets could be pretty good with more financial resources.

  

 

It may not be unreasonable to say, but it isn't necessarily a given.

 

And it turns out that perhaps he was better with a limited budget than with no limits.

 

During his stint in Buffalo, Muckler was much better w/ financial constraints rather than a blank checkbook.

[Randall Flagg]

It was pointed out by a poster on Sabres hf that the Marlies are in round 2 and that Grundstrom, their pick in the second round of 2016, has 3 points in 2 games after coming over. Add that to the machine-like development and play of Nylander, Marner, Matthews, Brown, Dermott, etc. and several others I am unaware of. They have one of the best young coaches out there in tune with the best coach in the NHL on their big club. 

 

We have a couple wingers from 2013 that may or may not wind up useful, a jerked-around center taken 2nd overall in 2014 looking a lot worse than the guy taken 3rd, a Guhle who seems to be doing well relative to his draft slot, a Nylander that had a decidedly worse post-draft season than his bro and than we had hoped for, no coach, no GM, a terrible Rochester team.

We have a lot of catching up to do as a franchise. 

Edited May 10, 2017 by Randall Flagg

[Thorner]

It was pointed out by a poster on Sabres hf that the Marlies are in round 2 and that Grundstrom, their pick in the second round of 2016, has 3 points in 2 games after coming over. Add that to the machine-like development and play of Nylander, Marner, Matthews, Brown, Dermott, etc. and several others I am unaware of. They have one of the best young coaches out there in tune with the best coach in the NHL on their big club. 

 

We have a couple wingers from 2013 that may or may not wind up useful, a jerked-around center taken 2nd overall in 2014 looking a lot worse than the guy taken 3rd, a Guhle who seems to be doing well relative to his draft slot, a Nylander that had a decidedly worse post-draft season than his bro and than we had hoped for, no coach, no GM, a terrible Rochester team.

We have a lot of catching up to do as a franchise.

 

Ouch.

[ubkev]

It was pointed out by a poster on Sabres hf that the Marlies are in round 2 and that Grundstrom, their pick in the second round of 2016, has 3 points in 2 games after coming over. Add that to the machine-like development and play of Nylander, Marner, Matthews, Brown, Dermott, etc. and several others I am unaware of. They have one of the best young coaches out there in tune with the best coach in the NHL on their big club.

 

We have a couple wingers from 2013 that may or may not wind up useful, a jerked-around center taken 2nd overall in 2014 looking a lot worse than the guy taken 3rd, a Guhle who seems to be doing well relative to his draft slot, a Nylander that had a decidedly worse post-draft season than his bro and than we had hoped for, no coach, no GM, a terrible Rochester team.

 

We have a lot of catching up to do as a franchise.

This sums up my feelings. And is also the reason I have no optimism for next season.

[Weave]

It was pointed out by a poster on Sabres hf that the Marlies are in round 2 and that Grundstrom, their pick in the second round of 2016, has 3 points in 2 games after coming over. Add that to the machine-like development and play of Nylander, Marner, Matthews, Brown, Dermott, etc. and several others I am unaware of. They have one of the best young coaches out there in tune with the best coach in the NHL on their big club. 

 

We have a couple wingers from 2013 that may or may not wind up useful, a jerked-around center taken 2nd overall in 2014 looking a lot worse than the guy taken 3rd, a Guhle who seems to be doing well relative to his draft slot, a Nylander that had a decidedly worse post-draft season than his bro and than we had hoped for, no coach, no GM, a terrible Rochester team.

 

We have a lot of catching up to do as a franchise. 

 

It was so worth it.

[LGR4GM]

It was pointed out by a poster on Sabres hf that the Marlies are in round 2 and that Grundstrom, their pick in the second round of 2016, has 3 points in 2 games after coming over. Add that to the machine-like development and play of Nylander, Marner, Matthews, Brown, Dermott, etc. and several others I am unaware of. They have one of the best young coaches out there in tune with the best coach in the NHL on their big club. 

 

We have a couple wingers from 2013 that may or may not wind up useful, a jerked-around center taken 2nd overall in 2014 looking a lot worse than the guy taken 3rd, a Guhle who seems to be doing well relative to his draft slot, a Nylander that had a decidedly worse post-draft season than his bro and than we had hoped for, no coach, no GM, a terrible Rochester team.

 

We have a lot of catching up to do as a franchise. 

I'm sorry but this is . Sam Reinhart does not look "a lot worse" than Draisaitl. Draisaitl looks better for sure but considering the wrong position and the coach who Reinhart played under, I call . 

 

The point about the Marlies is true. Part of the reason is all the players who should be in Rochester are in Buffalo because we gutted the franchise. Give it another 2 years when Cornel or whoever has to stay in Rochester because Buffalo doesn't have a spot for him. 

[TrueBlueGED]

If a bunker is Sabrespace slang for the thing we use when we hate a player, what is the opposite of that? Because whatever it is, I'm starting one for Alex Nylander.

It was pointed out by a poster on Sabres hf that the Marlies are in round 2 and that Grundstrom, their pick in the second round of 2016, has 3 points in 2 games after coming over. Add that to the machine-like development and play of Nylander, Marner, Matthews, Brown, Dermott, etc. and several others I am unaware of. They have one of the best young coaches out there in tune with the best coach in the NHL on their big club.

 

We have a couple wingers from 2013 that may or may not wind up useful, a jerked-around center taken 2nd overall in 2014 looking a lot worse than the guy taken 3rd, a Guhle who seems to be doing well relative to his draft slot, a Nylander that had a decidedly worse post-draft season than his bro and than we had hoped for, no coach, no GM, a terrible Rochester team.

 

We have a lot of catching up to do as a franchise.

Maybe we'll hire Keefe.

 

Sorry, that's all I got.

[Randall Flagg]

If a bunker is Sabrespace slang for the thing we use when we hate a player, what is the opposite of that? Because whatever it is, I'm starting one for Alex Nylander.

 

Maybe we'll hire Keefe.

 

Sorry, that's all I got.

I don't think you need that yet, because I don't have a Nylander bunker. That was more a shot at playing him in Rochester with that particular coach/system and roster surrounding him. He should have stayed in juniors. 

[LGR4GM]

If a bunker is Sabrespace slang for the thing we use when we hate a player, what is the opposite of that? Because whatever it is, I'm starting one for Alex Nylander.

 

Maybe we'll hire Keefe.

 

Sorry, that's all I got.

Alex Nylander will be FINE!

[Randall Flagg]

I'm sorry but this is ######. Sam Reinhart does not look "a lot worse" than Draisaitl. Draisaitl looks better for sure but considering the wrong position and the coach who Reinhart played under, I call ######. 

 

The point about the Marlies is true. Part of the reason is all the players who should be in Rochester are in Buffalo because we gutted the franchise. Give it another 2 years when Cornel or whoever has to stay in Rochester because Buffalo doesn't have a spot for him. 

I think it's true, and not an indictment of Reinhart. I love Samson and I understand the urge to see him at C. I counted at one point - he played more games either at the wrong wing (LW) or being centered by Zemgus/Cal O'Reilly/Larsson than he did at his natural position. But Leon has a nonzero chance at a Conn Smythe. 

Edited May 10, 2017 by Randall Flagg

[nfreeman]

It was pointed out by a poster on Sabres hf that the Marlies are in round 2 and that Grundstrom, their pick in the second round of 2016, has 3 points in 2 games after coming over. Add that to the machine-like development and play of Nylander, Marner, Matthews, Brown, Dermott, etc. and several others I am unaware of. They have one of the best young coaches out there in tune with the best coach in the NHL on their big club. 

 

We have a couple wingers from 2013 that may or may not wind up useful, a jerked-around center taken 2nd overall in 2014 looking a lot worse than the guy taken 3rd, a Guhle who seems to be doing well relative to his draft slot, a Nylander that had a decidedly worse post-draft season than his bro and than we had hoped for, no coach, no GM, a terrible Rochester team.

 

We have a lot of catching up to do as a franchise. 

 

All true, but hiring the right guys for coach and GM can get us most of the way there, and faster than perhaps most of us now think possible.

 

It sure woulda been nice to get Babcock though.

 

 

It was so worth it.

 

Very nice.

 

 

I'm sorry but this is ######. Sam Reinhart does not look "a lot worse" than Draisaitl. Draisaitl looks better for sure but considering the wrong position and the coach who Reinhart played under, I call ######. 

 

 

How can you say this?  Draisaitl looks terrific based on eye test, physical tools and numbers.  Reino shows flashes but is also invisible for long stretches. 

 

Yes, wrong position and poor coaching are (we hope) valid reasons for his stunted development, but we should remember that those are just hopes that may or may not be borne out under a different coach.  It's at least as possible that Reino just isn't that good.  And in the meantime Draisaitl is indisputably a much better player.

 

 

 

If a bunker is Sabrespace slang for the thing we use when we hate a player, what is the opposite of that? Because whatever it is, I'm starting one for Alex Nylander.

 

 

Interesting.  Why?

 

Not arguing, just curious as to your thinking here.

[TrueBlueGED]

I don't think you need that yet, because I don't have a Nylander bunker. That was more a shot at playing him in Rochester with that particular coach/system and roster surrounding him. He should have stayed in juniors.

I know you're at least looking at bunker sites! Consider it a preemptive strike! :p

[Randall Flagg]

I know you're at least looking at bunker sites! Consider it a preemptive strike! :P

I would strike back, but I'm not itching to take down the Bogo Bunker anytime soon...

All true, but hiring the right guys for coach and GM can get us most of the way there, and faster than perhaps most of us now think possible.

 

It sure woulda been nice to get Babcock though.

 

This is what I cling to. Toronto fans had no hope as recently as 2015.

[TrueBlueGED]

Interesting. Why?

 

Not arguing, just curious as to your thinking here.

In general, I think his skill set translates beautifully to the way the league currently plays. Fast, skilled, hockey sense. For a few reasons, I think the AHL was the worst place for him to be last season, and a lot of opinions have soured on him as a result. The AHL is a more physical league than the NHL (and physical development is Nylander's biggest weakness), the Amerks have been a mess for awhile now, and were playing Bylsma's useless system. He wasn't ready, and he was in a crap situation.

 

As to why I'm so high on him long term, I think he's perfect for one of Eichel's wings. Eichel needs a guy with speed and skill, but more importantly, high end hockey sense to play off him and finish the chances he creates. This is Nylander to a T. Taking into account accuracy and quick release, I think his shot is second to only Eichel's in the organization. I think he had the smarts to find open ice when Eichel drifts left like he loves to do, and finish off the beautiful saucers. If he shot left it'd be a little better for one timers, but Alex had the hands to corral and release regardless. He's going to make magic with Eichel a lot sooner than his play in the A would indicate.

 

Edit: Oh, and I think Reinhart was our third best forward last year behind O'Reilly and Eichel. While playing out of position. See: my post in another thread I don't remember and am too lazy to find :lol:

Edited May 10, 2017 by TrueBlueGED

[Taro T]

I'm sorry but this is ######. Sam Reinhart does not look "a lot worse" than Draisaitl. Draisaitl looks better for sure but considering the wrong position and the coach who Reinhart played under, I call ######. 

 

The point about the Marlies is true. Part of the reason is all the players who should be in Rochester are in Buffalo because we gutted the franchise. Give it another 2 years when Cornel or whoever has to stay in Rochester because Buffalo doesn't have a spot for him.

 

  

All true, but hiring the right guys for coach and GM can get us most of the way there, and faster than perhaps most of us now think possible.

 

It sure woulda been nice to get Babcock though.

 

 

 

 

Very nice.

 

 

 

 

How can you say this?  Draisaitl looks terrific based on eye test, physical tools and numbers.  Reino shows flashes but is also invisible for long stretches. 

 

Yes, wrong position and poor coaching are (we hope) valid reasons for his stunted development, but we should remember that those are just hopes that may or may not be borne out under a different coach.  It's at least as possible that Reino just isn't that good.  And in the meantime Draisaitl is indisputably a much better player.

 

 

 

 

 

Interesting.  Why?

 

Not arguing, just curious as to your thinking here.

Well, when we consider that the last we saw of Reinhart was the kid broken after the "benching for cause" & we've been watching Draisaitl continue to make Anaheim his personal female dog, absolutely Leon looks better. But Sam had been playing pretty well earlier in the season & Leon gets to play w/ McClavicle (& occassionally away from McClavicle to mess w/ matchups) & didn't get Bylsma'd. Let's see how it plays out during their bridge contracts. Sam could make it closer than it appears at present.

 

But unless one is related to Sam, it would be tough to say he'd still be the one you take if both were available at the same price today.

[Thorner]

All true, but hiring the right guys for coach and GM can get us most of the way there, and faster than perhaps most of us now think possible.

 

It sure woulda been nice to get Babcock though.

 

 

 

 

Very nice.

 

 

 

 

How can you say this? Draisaitl looks terrific based on eye test, physical tools and numbers. Reino shows flashes but is also invisible for long stretches.

 

Yes, wrong position and poor coaching are (we hope) valid reasons for his stunted development, but we should remember that those are just hopes that may or may not be borne out under a different coach. It's at least as possible that Reino just isn't that good. And in the meantime Draisaitl is indisputably a much better player.

 

 

 

 

 

Interesting. Why?

 

Not arguing, just curious as to your thinking here.

To the bolded: I don't think that's fair.

 

I just don't think it's reasonable to think of a guy who has 90 points in his first two seasons in the NHL, at 20 and 21, in "just isn't that good" terms, regardless of system and how he's being utilized.

 

47 points in his second year is pretty good. We can measure what he produces constantly in reference to his draft position, but what's the point. I'm hoping he becomes as good a player as he can for us and it looks promising so far.

Edited May 11, 2017 by Thorny

[Randall Flagg]

By "that good" I think n meant "Leon-Draisaitl-good"

[Weave]

By "that good" I think n meant "Leon-Draisaitl-good"

 

That's what I got out of it.

[LGR4GM]

By "that good" I think n meant "Leon-Draisaitl-good"

ok

 

 

Bet Edmonton wishes they had drafted Rasmus instead of Darnell.

[Thorner]

By "that good" I think n meant "Leon-Draisaitl-good"

Oops, reading comprehension fail.

[dudacek]

As to why I'm so high on him long term, I think he's perfect for one of Eichel's wings. Eichel needs a guy with speed and skill, but more importantly, high end hockey sense to play off him and finish the chances he creates. This is Nylander to a T. Taking into account accuracy and quick release, I think his shot is second to only Eichel's in the organization. I think he had the smarts to find open ice when Eichel drifts left like he loves to do, and finish off the beautiful saucers. If he shot left it'd be a little better for one timers, but Alex had the hands to corral and release regardless. He's going to make magic with Eichel a lot sooner than his play in the A would indicate.

Every so often you transcend the numbers.

This is exactly why Murray would not give up that pick.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Do you think GMTM drafted Nylander partly to fuel the rivalry with the Leafs?