Leafs rebuild vs Sabres rebuild: Which will be better sooner and which will be better longer?

[Randall Flagg]

That is not accurate. They played his stretch pass, turn the defense, no puck support system that he's used since the fall of 2009. They killed the forecheck when Jack was out to keep everyone back on defense and activated it more when he came back - the 1-2-2 went from default to only when we have a lead. There is no problem with the DD system argument.

[WildCard]

That is not accurate. They played his stretch pass, turn the defense, no puck support system that he's used since the fall of 2009. They killed the forecheck when Jack was out to keep everyone back on defense and activated it more when he came back - the 1-2-2 went from default to only when we have a lead. There is no problem with the DD system argument.

At this point half the reason I want Byslma gone is so we can stop proving the history and use of his system over and over again. 

[LGR4GM]

Here is the problem with the DD and his system suck theory. They didn't play his system this year. They couldn't. The injuries and lack of D talent and depth didn't lend itself to playing the system. We played trap early in the year and pump and chase most of the season. GMTM said so at the presser. He said most of our 5 on 5 offense came from dump and chase and then establishing the cycle in the zone. He also said he didn't give DD adequate depth to overcome the injuries or to play the possession/transition game he wanted. Does that sound like DD's fast break offense?

 

If want to say DD sucks because he didn't communicate well. OK, but the players say they didn't listen as well as they should. If you want to say DD sucks because he worried about gameplaning the opponent vs just playing our game, that is a valid observation. If you want to complain about line combos, I'm right there with you; and if you want to say that you don't think the fast break will work in today's NHL and isn't the system GMTM wants to run, I can accept that as well. However you can't say DD didn't adjust to his talent or that his system was to blame for the O problems, because based on TM's statements, that isn't ture.

Was he the coach? yes. Did he run the team? Yes. Did he implement a system? Yes. They ran his system and he is responsible for it. Murray did not offer adequate depth, but Bylsma coaches like a loser. When Jack goes down and you completely change EVERY ###### THING your team is doing on the ice, you are a loser coach trying not to lose games, I am sorry but I don't believe for 5 seconds Bylsma wants to coach anything different than what he coached all year. 

 

Murray can say what he wants and if he wanted Bylsma to coach that way he is to blame as well, They coached a crap system that didn't win us enough games. Period. 

Here's a question... what is better? Playing a bs system you don't intend to ever use once you have the right personnel because it might help you win an extra game or two, OR playing the system you want to play and teaching it to the players who need to learn it now so that when you get all the personnel you need you are ready to go? 

 

Answer one makes you a scared loser. Answer two makes you a forward thinking person who understand the bigger picture. 

Edited April 18, 2017 by LGR4GM

[WildCard]

Well the kicker there Liger is I'm pretty sure his transition scheme is the same before and after Jack, which is the biggest flaw of his crap system.

[Randall Flagg]

Also we won 7 of 21 games playing that way, so "maybe win one or two more games" isn't a thing, it was already worst case scenario

[WildCard]

Also we won 7 of 21 games playing that way, so "maybe win one or two more games" isn't a thing, it was already worst case scenario

It's actually amazing that he stuck with that style for 21 freaking games. After 3-4 he should've realized it wasn't working

[LGR4GM]

Well the kicker there Liger is I'm pretty sure his transition scheme is the same before and after Jack, which is the biggest flaw of his crap system.

Exactly, there is no transition game other than forwards clear the zone and defensemen hopefully hit them with a long lead pass. It is like when a basketball player gets a rebound and everyone just sprints for the other basket... accept this is hockey! 

 

Also we won 7 of 21 games playing that way, so "maybe win one or two more games" isn't a thing, it was already worst case scenario

That was clearly the Bylsma mindset. Jack is gone and we need to make sure we don't lose to much or by a big margin so let me install this poop system of no offense... 

[qwksndmonster]

It's actually amazing that he stuck with that style for 21 freaking games. After 3-4 he should've realized it wasn't working

Except Bylsma doesn't try new things at all. Only by accident, like the one game he put Kulilov and Risto together and we could actuallt exit the zone or the one time Eichel and O'Reilly got to play together and they created like 6 scoring chances in one period.

[pi2000]

It's actually amazing that he stuck with that style for 21 freaking games. After 3-4 he should've realized it wasn't working

 

They lost something like 10 of their first 21 games by 1 goal... it's not like they were getting blown out of the building.    They were playing a certain way because personnel dictated as much.    What are you gonna do?   Open it up and play run and gun without your top 3 scorers?   That would've been dumb and got him fired.

 

Also, folks seem to forget that even though BUF started scoring more when Eichel rejoined the lineup, they also gave up almost one extra goal per game.    So imagine giving up that extra goal per game and not having Eichel, Kane and ROR for long stretches.... they might not have won a single game and they'd have no shot at the playoffs come mid-Dec.       

 

The strategy was to tread water, keep within shooting distance of a playoff spot until Eichel returned... and they did just that.   The problem was after he came back they did start scoring more, but they couldn't score enough to overcome their lack of defense.. which was exposed in the second half of the season.

Edited April 18, 2017 by pi2000

[GASabresIUFAN]

They lost something like 10 of their first 21 games by 1 goal... it's not like they were getting blown out of the building.    They were playing a certain way because personnel dictated as much.    What are you gonna do?   Open it up and play run and gun without your top 3 scorers?   That would've been dumb and got him fired.

 

Also, folks seem to forget that even though BUF started scoring more when Eichel rejoined the lineup, they also gave up almost one extra goal per game.    So imagine giving up that extra goal per game and not having Eichel, Kane and ROR for long stretches.... they might not have won a single game.

Thank you!  Now they don't like DD because he adjusted his style of play to suit his personnel.  LOL.   

[qwksndmonster]

How can you defend the strategy of treading water when all we did was sink? Oh, we didn't lose that bad? Woop de do.

[Jacque Richard]

Only if Babcock came here. Probably sitting in a better situation

[Randall Flagg]

They lost something like 10 of their first 21 games by 1 goal... it's not like they were getting blown out of the building.    They were playing a certain way because personnel dictated as much.    What are you gonna do?   Open it up and play run and gun without your top 3 scorers?   That would've been dumb and got him fired.

 

Also, folks seem to forget that even though BUF started scoring more when Eichel rejoined the lineup, they also gave up almost one extra goal per game.    So imagine giving up that extra goal per game and not having Eichel, Kane and ROR for long stretches.... they might not have won a single game and they'd have no shot at the playoffs come mid-Dec.       

 

The strategy was to tread water, keep within shooting distance of a playoff spot until Eichel returned... and they did just that.   The problem was after he came back they did start scoring more, but they couldn't score enough to overcome their lack of defense.. which was exposed in the second half of the season.

They were scoring at a rate worse than any other non-expansion team in the modern era. for a quarter of the season.

 

Thank you!  Now they don't like DD because he adjusted his style of play to suit his personnel.  LOL.   

He didn't adjust it to suit our personnel. Stop simplifying and distorting what's been gone over countless times on this forum since it happened. Doing stretch passes with a passive forecheck because of no Eichel doesn't suit any hockey player because it's literally the dumbest fvcking thing you can do. Purposely give the puck away and then don't even bother trying to get it back, sending in one guy with the 1-2-2. At least we saw more 2-3 when Jack got healthy, which was also the forecheck he leaned on when tweaking Therrien's system in 09 before it disappeared forever. 

 

He adjusted our strategy to take low-event hockey to the lowest level it's ever been, because that's a safe thing to do. It doesn't look as bad losing every game 2-0 as it does losing 6-3. And why do that to counter losing a player that put up 56 points the year before when we went out and gave a huge contract to a player that scored 64 the year before for a different team? The net points scored among Sabres INCREASED EVEN WITH EICHEL'S INJURY from the previous season. Why was Dan coaching like a piece of sh!t who thinks he has a tank group of forwards? And we were scoring at rates worse than any non expansion team in modern history. It was a failed attempt at adjusting that we called out as soon as he started doing it, and continued to call out when it gave us a sterling .333 win percentage during that stretch. Every single fvcking game we pointed it out every single fvicking time it happened, and we watched that record pile up. I'm not letting these fvcking narratives pop up now that the season is over and time has taken away some of the edge and memory from when we were going through that garbage.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Randall Flagg

[GASabresIUFAN]

How can you defend the strategy of treading water when all we did was sink? Oh, we didn't lose that bad? Woop de ###### do.

What?  What choice did he have?  He was missing his top 3 scorers, he had the worst group of D in the NHL and a bottom 6 filled with overpaid veteran players who contributed nothing.  No one could magically coach this collection of "players" to the playoffs.  Not Bowman, or Babcock or anyone else.  Treading water was the accomplishment.  

 

This is why at least 3 different D will be in our starting 6 next season.  This is why guys like Baptiste, Erod, Carrier, Bailley and Smith may all have increased roles on the team next year.  This is why GMTM is likely to work a deal with LV to take Moulson, Ennis or Bogosian offer our hands.  This is why are praying that Nylander develops quickly next year and that we draft a puck moving D this year.  The current roster is a pile of bat guano and needs an overhaul.

[WildCard]

So trading water is an accomplishment without Jack, if you really wanna even call those first 21 that, and doing it after Jack returns is...An accomplishment? [blink 182 gif]

[nfreeman]

The strategy was to tread water, keep within shooting distance of a playoff spot until Eichel returned... and they did just that.   The problem was after he came back they did start scoring more, but they couldn't score enough to overcome their lack of defense.. which was exposed in the second half of the season.

 

I think the problem was more that they were a terrible possession and shot generation/shot prevention team, which caught up with them, AND, critically, they had a deeply disturbing lack of heart and will that manifested after the bye week when a playoff spot was within reach notwithstanding their systemic and roster issues.

[pi2000]

So trading water is an accomplishment without Jack, if you really wanna even call those first 21 that, and doing it after Jack returns is...An accomplishment? [blink 182 gif]

 

They weren't just missing Jack.   They were without Kane, ROR, Ennis, Kulikov, Bogosian, and Okposo missed some games early on IIRC.     They had a very tankerous lineup.    

 

 

I think the problem was more that they were a terrible possession and shot generation/shot prevention team, which caught up with them, AND, critically, they had a deeply disturbing lack of heart and will that manifested after the bye week when a playoff spot was within reach notwithstanding their systemic and roster issues.

 

Correct.   They can't defend... anywhere on the ice.     Part of that is youth, and part of that is the fact their 3rd line is composed of 1st line has-beens from the tank years.   They're not defensively skilled players.    I have hope because GMTM is aware of this and hopefully will take steps to address it this offseason... and it's not just fixing the defense... it's fixing the bottom 6 so we don't need to put ROR out on the ice every d-zone draw,  PP1 and triple shift him at the end of close games.    They need to take steps to address this weakness and their possession numbers will drastically improve.... WITH BYLSMA!

[LGR4GM]

Quick find a Bylsma team with good possession numbers... 

[Thorner]

They weren't just missing Jack.   They were without Kane, ROR, Ennis, Kulikov, Bogosian, and Okposo missed some games early on IIRC.     They had a very tankerous lineup.    

 

 

 

 

Correct.   They can't defend... anywhere on the ice.     Part of that is youth, and part of that is the fact their 3rd line is composed of 1st line has-beens from the tank years.   They're not defensively skilled players.    I have hope because GMTM is aware of this and hopefully will take steps to address it this offseason... and it's not just fixing the defense... it's fixing the bottom 6 so we don't need to put ROR out on the ice every d-zone draw,  PP1 and triple shift him at the end of close games.    They need to take steps to address this weakness and their possession numbers will drastically improve.... WITH BYLSMA!

And if you run 5 miles every day, you'll be able to stay in pretty decent shape, even if you eat McDonald's once a day. But if you cut out that McDonald's as well...you'll be in a lot better shape.

[qwksndmonster]

What? What choice did he have? He was missing his top 3 scorers, he had the worst group of D in the NHL and a bottom 6 filled with overpaid veteran players who contributed nothing. No one could magically coach this collection of "players" to the playoffs. Not Bowman, or Babcock or anyone else. Treading water was the accomplishment.

 

This is why at least 3 different D will be in our starting 6 next season. This is why guys like Baptiste, Erod, Carrier, Bailley and Smith may all have increased roles on the team next year. This is why GMTM is likely to work a deal with LV to take Moulson, Ennis or Bogosian offer our hands. This is why are praying that Nylander develops quickly next year and that we draft a puck moving D this year. The current roster is a pile of bat guano and needs an overhaul.

What choice did we have? How about actually trying to score.

[LGR4GM]

What choice did we have? How about actually trying to score.

Like I said it is a loser mentality. I don't have my top gun so instead of trying to win games, I am going to sit back and try not to lose the game. If we had a real transition game, losing Jack would have been much less of a problem. Whoever hit that nail on the head (transition game) deserves a cookie because that was the loud death cry of Bylsma's "system" once Jack Jack returned. 

[qwksndmonster]

Like I said it is a loser mentality. I don't have my top gun so instead of trying to win games, I am going to sit back and try not to lose the game. If we had a real transition game, losing Jack would have been much less of a problem. Whoever hit that nail on the head (transition game) deserves a cookie because that was the loud death cry of Bylsma's "system" once Jack Jack returned.

Exactly. Babcock had the Leafs playing his system while they were the worst team in the league. He didn't cower into a shell.

[LGR4GM]

Exactly. Babcock had the Leafs playing his system while they were the worst team in the league. He didn't cower into a shell.

And it is almost like the leafs got better as the season progressed because they learned a real system... or they could have learned 2 or 3 systems because of some bs personal lacking excuse. 

[Randall Flagg]

And it is almost like the leafs got better as the season progressed because they learned a real system... or they could have learned 2 or 3 systems because of some bs personal lacking excuse. 

I dunno if you were around for my big post concerning them in the system thread, but I really love the Hurricanes example as a team that didn't have a lot of skilled players but spent two years working on their transition game and having tremendous possession numbers while playing beautiful, fun hockey because of it. 

[LGR4GM]

I dunno if you were around for my big post concerning them in the system thread, but I really love the Hurricanes example as a team that didn't have a lot of skilled players but spent two years working on their transition game and having tremendous possession numbers while playing beautiful, fun hockey because of it. 

What? You need to practice the thing you want to do over and over until you can't get it wrong?