OT Beauts Player Making History

[Hoss]

The topic of whether or not transgender men/women should be permitted to play in the opposite gender's league is certainly an interesting one. Having said conversation is important for sports and does not demean LGBTQ individuals if done properly.

 

I am still trying to learn more so I can confidently state an opinion on the matter. I do know many, myself included, have no problem discussing the physical differences between a man and a woman when talking about domestic violence. A man beating a woman is light years worse than a woman beating a man in almost all cases, but there are exceptions (such as an older woman beating a man or a female with a dominant physical stature over a weaker man). So if I can admit this it should certainly apply to sports, yes? I think so.

 

I believe Harrison should be permitted to play in the NWHL and am happy to have him playing for our team in Buffalo. If one of the Sabres players came out and admitted they identified as a woman I would be happy to have them on the Sabres still.

[Eleven]

The topic of whether or not transgender men/women should be permitted to play in the opposite gender's league is certainly an interesting one. Having said conversation is important for sports and does not demean LGBTQ individuals if done properly.

 

I am still trying to learn more so I can confidently state an opinion on the matter. I do know many, myself included, have no problem discussing the physical differences between a man and a woman when talking about domestic violence. A man beating a woman is light years worse than a woman beating a man in almost all cases, but there are exceptions (such as an older woman beating a man or a female with a dominant physical stature over a weaker man). So if I can admit this it should certainly apply to sports, yes? I think so.

 

I believe Harrison should be permitted to play in the NWHL and am happy to have him playing for our team in Buffalo. If one of the Sabres players came out and admitted they identified as a woman I would be happy to have them on the Sabres still.

 

What if it were Hodgson?

[JJFIVEOH]

I think what we want, in general, is equal rights and equal respect for all as a baseline, not necessarily everyone treated as the same exact person all the time. Hell with men and women, there's evolutionary traits that make me different from other men. I could work out every day of my life and never be this guy:

 

I could study constantly, apply myself fully, and never be Steven Hawking. People are different, which is good and we should celebrate those differences. The point is, entirely, to judge people as individuals, as who they are as a person, not base my assumptions on one fact I know about them.

 

As for sports, whether there should be men/womens pro leagues and competitions is an interesting question. I've always wondered about it, especially in the olympics. Is there any reason we can't have mixed gender curling competitions? Archery? IDK, people of those sports could tell you better. For stuff like hockey and football and golf, the answer is simply that making women compete at the same level means that women would not be able to compete (in most cases). So then, if there was a woman who was good enough to play, like the one girl from the Little League Baseball World Series last year, if she can be good enough to pitch in the majors, there's no reason we shouldn't let her, right? But then what about the guys who aren't good enough for the NBA, should they be allowed in the WNBA? Probably not, because then its not the WNBA, its just a minor league basketball. Shouldn't it be a two way street?

 

And this is where we get back to the fact that not everything IS equal. You have to treat every situation, like every person, as its own individual thing. There are no universal laws or answers for just about anything, unfortunately.

 

Yeah, he identifies as a man, so you refer to him as a man, with male pronouns.

Good post. I have absolutely no problem treating everybody the same. I have my beliefs, my views, my interests as does every other person. Whatever makes each person happy, good for them. It's your life, you do as you please.

 

I just don't like the liberal narrative that everybody should be equal. Well, I guess it's how you define equal. As you say, we should all be treated the same, but we're not all equal. I don't think a man should be allowed in women's sports, I don't think a woman should be allowed in men's sports. Outside of competition, you do as you please.

[sodbuster]

This shouldn't be a big deal in 2016, but it is, and it has to be, because people are so woefully underinformed on this issue.

 

Also, I think an important thing to remember in this discussion is that gender and sex are two different things. I find it interesting that some (not necessarily in this thread) have had reactions to this story that directly contradict their stance on the bathroom issue. For example "I don't care what you identify as, match your parts to what's on the door and use the proper bathroom" vs "if he identifies as a man he should be in the NHL."

[pi2000]

Are there any reports that this has happened? A very large amount of pedophiles are men that prey on young boys, so I don't see how using a different bathroom makes literally any difference.

 

Harrison has female levels of testosterone because he has yet to go under any hormone therapy. At least read the article first, dude.

 

The closest the article comes to talking about testosterone or hormones is here....

 

"Browne has decided to postpone a medical transition until he's done playing in the NWHL, and he's not changing his legal name right now for visa reasons. Browne says he is "not closing the door" to transitioning to the men's side of the sport one day depending on how his body changes."

 

All that says is he's having an operation to give him fully male body parts.   That's all.   It doesn't say wether or not he has testes or what his hormone levels are.    

[sabills]

The closest the article comes to talking about testosterone or hormones is here....

 

"Browne has decided to postpone a medical transition until he's done playing in the NWHL, and he's not changing his legal name right now for visa reasons. Browne says he is "not closing the door" to transitioning to the men's side of the sport one day depending on how his body changes."

 

All that says is he's having an operation to give him fully male body parts.   That's all.   It doesn't say wether or not he has testes or what his hormone levels are.    

 

You're right, I'm sorry, I read another article on this and it mentioned it more explicitly:

 

 

Q. Why are you waiting until after your career ends to make the medical transition?

BROWNE: 

Because I wouldn’t be able to play. It’s a performance enhancer, testosterone. I played in college and NCAA rules were that I couldn’t have any [added] testosterone in my body. I just assumed the NWHL would have the same kind of thing.

It’s always been that after I finish hockey then I’ll begin my physical transition.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/harrison-browne-on-coming-out-as-transgendered-dealing-with-backlash-puck-daddy-qa-175135794.html

 

I thought that was from the article in this thread, so again I apologize. No reason you would have known that.

 

From that article we find out that he has done no hormone therapy yet, because of the very thing we're talking about: competition.

[pi2000]

You're right, I'm sorry, I read another article on this and it mentioned it more explicitly:

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/harrison-browne-on-coming-out-as-transgendered-dealing-with-backlash-puck-daddy-qa-175135794.html

 

I thought that was from the article in this thread, so again I apologize. No reason you would have known that.

 

From that article we find out that he has done no hormone therapy yet, because of the very thing we're talking about: competition.

Interesting, he says he hasn't started hormone therapy yet, but it still doesn't say what his testosterone level is currently or if they test for naturally occuring elevated testosterone levels. Its easy to test for synthetic testosterone and that would be a PED. Naturally occuring testosterone is an issue and there's no clear cut definition of what level would disqualify you from competing as a female is professional sport. Edited October 8, 2016 by pi2000

[JJFIVEOH]

This shouldn't be a big deal in 2016, but it is, and it has to be, because people are so woefully underinformed on this issue.

 

Also, I think an important thing to remember in this discussion is that gender and sex are two different things. I find it interesting that some (not necessarily in this thread) have had reactions to this story that directly contradict their stance on the bathroom issue. For example "I don't care what you identify as, match your parts to what's on the door and use the proper bathroom" vs "if he identifies as a man he should be in the NHL."

 

Accepting and allowing them to compete are two totally different things. I think only the hardest core conservatives are the ones who aren't accepting of those who are different from them. But naturally, and physically, there is a point where you just can't allow them to compete. I'm not focusing on this story completely, but all of it in general. There have already been some high school stories coming out with men who identify as women competing (and winning) in women's high school sporting events and parents getting pissed off that it isn't fair. And it's not. Men and women are not the same, it doesn't matter how you identify. Naturally men just have a physical advantage over women whether you identify as a woman or not. 

[josie]

Sad I missed this thread. I don't internet too much on the weekends, I save that for when I'm bored at work :P

 

d4rk mentioned it but in the last year I have worked with several transgender people quite closely and man, I didn't know what I didn't know. My friend Sam still plays roller derby with all ciswomen as he transitions to male. I have watched my former student and good friend Ray transition and have listened to many of his struggles, which I helped him explore and communicate through his art. Some of them are great people willing to understand and educate those unfamiliar with their identity, others get rather militant and rude, easily offended. Humans! I learned that many words I used that I thought were ok were actually a bit offensive (saying that a transgender man is a biological female, for example). Assuming a transgender person is a hermaphrodite is incorrect as well, as that is an entirely different situation.  

 

I think gender fluidity and assigned gender at birth to transitioning is a new concept to many people, and thus often distasteful/scary. The "I know I'm a man/woman, what's wrong with these wackos? Need more attention? Going undercover? Perverts?" while conjuring an image of Frankenfurter in fishnet thigh highs(A transvestite and a transgender person are not the same thing! Just ask Eddie Izzard).

 

I guess what helped me a lot was understanding that many see sexuality and gender as a sliding scale rather than strict compartments of straight/gay or male/female. Answered some things for me personally, honestly. Sure, you've got the tiny percentage of "tumblrinas" identifying as pansexual fox otherkin using the pronoun ze (I taught one of these, regardless of identity, person was a total a$$hole), and I think many use those extreme examples as a strawman argument that everyone of a questioning identity is an "attention wh0re" or "confused". 

 

As cited above, anytime sports/physical ability get tied in, things get more difficult. I say good for Harrison. Brave to come out. Sports culture is still not kind towards homosexuality, let alone the "new" political frontier of transgender. We encourage athletes to flaunt their identities, be public figures... and when one comes forward as something as "unusual" as gay or transgender, some very disheartening rhetoric fills the airwaves.

 

Sorry for the book- I've gained a decent amount of knowledge on this topic recently, and while I obviously can't speak fully for anyone, I'd gladly answer any questions I can with what I've learned. There's some good info in this thread, and some not so good stuff too. I do tend to be more liberal on this subject, moreso than d4rk (we've gotten into some heated discussion over the transgender athlete argument during the Olympics). Questions are good, assumptions are usually not. 

[Hoss]

Snaps for Josie, good post

[pi2000]

As cited above, anytime sports/physical ability get tied in, things get more difficult. I say good for Harrison. Brave to come out. Sports culture is still not kind towards homosexuality, let alone the "new" political frontier of transgender. We encourage athletes to flaunt their identities, be public figures... and when one comes forward as something as "unusual" as gay or transgender, some very disheartening rhetoric fills the airwaves.

 

Sorry for the book- I've gained a decent amount of knowledge on this topic recently, and while I obviously can't speak fully for anyone, I'd gladly answer any questions I can with what I've learned. There's some good info in this thread, and some not so good stuff too. I do tend to be more liberal on this subject, moreso than d4rk (we've gotten into some heated discussion over the transgender athlete argument during the Olympics). Questions are good, assumptions are usually not. 

 

How do you allow women with high testosterone levels to compete while keeping it fair for women with "normal" hormone levels?   In your opinion, should the IAAF go back to requiring female atheletes with high testosterone levels to take hormone suppressants?  

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/olympics/whispers-on-the-track-in-rio-does-caster-semenya-have-an-unfair-edge/2016/08/17/840cf088-6486-11e6-be4e-23fc4d4d12b4_story.html

 

..."The 25-year old South African runner is believed to have an intersex condition called hyperandrogenism, which means her body may be producing testosterone at levels much higher than most women."

 

I understand it's not her fault she has this condition, but it obviously gives her an advantage over her competitors... is that fair? 

 

WRT Harrison, we know he hasn't undergone hormone therapy because that would be considered doping, but we don't know what his naturally occuring testosterone levels are.    That said, should there be a cutoff at some testosterone level where we no longer allow the individual to compete in women's sports? 

[Eleven]

How do you allow women with high testosterone levels to compete while keeping it fair for women with "normal" hormone levels?   In your opinion, should the IAAF go back to requiring female atheletes with high testosterone levels to take hormone suppressants?  

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/olympics/whispers-on-the-track-in-rio-does-caster-semenya-have-an-unfair-edge/2016/08/17/840cf088-6486-11e6-be4e-23fc4d4d12b4_story.html

 

..."The 25-year old South African runner is believed to have an intersex condition called hyperandrogenism, which means her body may be producing testosterone at levels much higher than most women."

 

I understand it's not her fault she has this condition, but it obviously gives her an advantage over her competitors... is that fair? 

 

WRT Harrison, we know he hasn't undergone hormone therapy because that would be considered doping, but we don't know what his naturally occuring testosterone levels are.    That said, should there be a cutoff at some testosterone level where we no longer allow the individual to compete in women's sports? 

 

It's not Shaquille O'Neal's fault that he's 7'1", is it?

[pi2000]

It's not Shaquille O'Neal's fault that he's 7'1", is it?

 

If there were two basketball leagues, one for folks under 6'0", another for folks over 6'0"... would you let 7'11" Shaq compete in the short league because he "identifies" as a short person?    Or are you a heightist?

[Eleven]

If there were two basketball leagues, one for folks under 6'0", another for folks over 6'0"... would you let 7'11" Shaq compete in the short league because he "identifies" as a short person?    Or are you a heightist?

 

All I'm saying is that a woman who naturally has higher levels of testosterone than most is no more advantaged in running than a man who naturally is taller than most is in basketball.

 

As someone upthread posted, we're all built differently.  

[pi2000]

All I'm saying is that a woman who naturally has higher levels of testosterone than most is no more advantaged in running than a man who naturally is taller than most is in basketball.

 

As someone upthread posted, we're all built differently.  

 

Yes, both have an advantage, and it's not their fault... that we can agree upon.   

 

However, Shaq is not trying to compete in a league for short people only, there are no height limitations in competitive basketball.

 

The woman with high testosterone (eg, tall person in the example i gave above) is competing in a women's only (eg, short people) league.... which, to me, seems unfair to women with normal hormone levels.... and it encourages doping to compete against the testosterone advantaged.    

 

I'd like to clarify, I don't have an opinion on the right way to handle these cases because I don't know enough about it.... which is why I'm bringing it up.       I respect folks to identify however they want, but when it comes to competitive sports with money, sponsorships, livelihoods on the line, there has to be some rules in place to prevent a "man" from competing as a woman.

Edited October 10, 2016 by pi2000

[josie]

That's the exact argument d4rk and I get into.

 

I acknowledge the point, it's a valid point. I guess I adhere more to the "well, Usain Bolt, Michael Phelps, Katie Ledecky are physically built entirely differently than the rest of the their competitors- and we don't see it as unfair." camp. That gets into "natural vs unnatural" territory. One could argue that well, Bolt was born with that muscle build, Phelps with that long torso and those big feet. A transgender athlete is consuming hormones, an outside source, to physically change his or her body, it is no different than steroids (see East German female lifters in late 80s). But then I guess, is it transphobic to say well, they're simply assuming their natural form? I've heard some discuss the transition as not much more than fixing an incorrectly functioning organ.

 

So where do we allow a gifted athlete who happens to be transgender to compete? Do we ban them and say, sorry, your physical condition is unfair, give up your dreams and do something else? Or do we implement a sliding scale based on numbers or something to maintain some fairness on all levels, regardless of assigned gender?

 

I feel for any transgender athlete right now. Damned if they do, damned if they don't. Brown will be interesting to watch. I think a path that compromises may present itself in time here. I don't have the answer. We have just begun to even pay attention to this issue - and sports is probably the biggest of catalyst arguments. I guess I have no problem with it. I doubt athletes are going to all suddenly claim they're transgender and go through the fun of being a social pariah and deal with hormone therapy just so they can excel in a sport. 

Maybe there's a positive in there that hasn't been thought of- only very recently has it become somewhat acceptable for females to be strong. If transgender women raise the bar in a more physical sport that favors the big (wrestling, weightlifting, perhaps), competition may rise with them. This can also go for men with being more effeminate. Something like a transgender man winning titles in figure skating or something. I dunno exactly. Interesting impacts, maybe neither good nor bad. 

 

I have this exact argument w/ d4rk about women's hockey and allowing checking. Or women playing in the NHL and why they don't. How sports change depending on the type of people playing them- hockey flexing and changing from rougher, physical and slower  to incredibly fast and agile- majority player body types change. Equipment evolution can even have that effect. Just another interesting variable. 

Tricky conversation in 2016. Probably will be for another 50 years. Things have changed relatively quickly in the last decade. There will be backlash, and tough decisions- this is one of them. 

[pi2000]

That's the exact argument d4rk and I get into.

 

I acknowledge the point, it's a valid point. I guess I adhere more to the "well, Usain Bolt, Michael Phelps, Katie Ledecky are physically built entirely differently than the rest of the their competitors- and we don't see it as unfair." camp. That gets into "natural vs unnatural" territory. One could argue that well, Bolt was born with that muscle build, Phelps with that long torso and those big feet. A transgender athlete is consuming hormones, an outside source, to physically change his or her body, it is no different than steroids (see East German female lifters in late 80s). But then I guess, is it transphobic to say well, they're simply assuming their natural form? I've heard some discuss the transition as not much more than fixing an incorrectly functioning organ.

 

 

 

I disagree.   We don't segregate athletes based on size of body parts.     We DO segregate athletes based on sex, because humans with higher testosterone levels have an advantage in most athletic competitions.    Phelps, Bolt, Ledecky, etc.. are naturally physically gifted, but they fall under either man or woman.   

 

That said, if you want to be completely fair to everybody, eliminate all women's sports... across all competitions.    Let all humans compete in their natural state against all other humans.     Otherwise you absolutely need to have a line drawn between what is a man and what is a woman... and IMO that line should be the same for all competitors.... we should not let athletes dictate where to draw the line for themselves.

[Eleven]

What about men who naturally have higher testosterone levels than other men?  Or estrogen levels, for that matter?

Edited October 10, 2016 by Eleven

[josie]

I disagree.   We don't segregate athletes based on size of body parts.     We DO segregate athletes based on sex, because humans with higher testosterone levels have an advantage in most athletic competitions.    Phelps, Bolt, Ledecky, etc.. are naturally physically gifted, but they fall under either man or woman.   

 

That said, if you want to be completely fair to everybody, eliminate all women's sports... across all competitions.    Let all humans compete in their natural state against all other humans.     Otherwise you absolutely need to have a line drawn between what is a man and what is a woman... and IMO that line should be the same for all competitors.... we should not let athletes dictate where to draw the line for themselves.

That second part there is kinda what I meant. Somehow more quantifiable. I admit it sounds more like a rainbow happy future idea than something that any money making sports enterprise would ever dare to implement, but hey, it's a hypothesis. 

 

Maybe at some point the sex will be irrelevant. Perhaps those numbers ARE testosterone count or something. We have male and female because those are black and white in our culture. A wild grey area has emerged... and where does it go? It has a bit of black and a bit of white, but not enough grey to be its own category... And in the terms of something as dazzling as sports, if you go with my genderless sliding scale idea, maybe that takes the spice of extreme examples out of it and you're left with an average pack per "class". 

 

Don't know. Could be an interesting thing to try. 

 

I'm just asking more questions than I am really answering- but I think with something like this, that's not entirely unhealthy. It's an issue to be explored, not solved immediately. Incremental change and understanding sticks better than sweeping revolutions! 

Edited October 10, 2016 by Josie914

[pi2000]

That second part there is kinda what I meant. Somehow more quantifiable. I admit it sounds more like a rainbow happy future idea than something that any money making sports enterprise would ever dare to implement, but hey, it's a hypothesis. 

 

Maybe at some point the sex will be irrelevant. Perhaps those numbers ARE testosterone count or something. We have male and female because those are black and white in our culture. A wild grey area has emerged... and where does it go? It has a bit of black and a bit of white, but not enough grey to be its own category... And in the terms of something as dazzling as sports, if you go with my genderless sliding scale idea, maybe that takes the spice of extreme examples out of it and you're left with an average pack per "class". 

 

Don't know. Could be an interesting thing to try. 

 

I'm just asking more questions than I am really answering- but I think with something like this, that's not entirely unhealthy. It's an issue to be explored, not solved immediately. Incremental change and understanding sticks better than sweeping revolutions! 

 

A rainbow happy future is all we can really hope for... right?   We shouldn't stop trying just because it's unattainable... after all... perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence. 

 

IMO, a good first step would be to eliminate the "women's sports" nomenclature.    Change the name to something non-gender specific.... "alternate 100m relay" for example.... instead of the " women's 100m relay".    At the same time enforce strict hormone guidelines... allowing athletes to compete in whatever competition they'd like as long as their naturally occurring hormone levels are within bounds.    Maybe even have a third category for those using synthetic hormones.    

[Hoss]

Problem is that testosterone isn't the 100% cause for all athletic and physical prowess... it's not the only difference between men and women, athletic and unathletic, physically dominant and physically capable.

[darksabre]

A rainbow happy future is all we can really hope for... right?   We shouldn't stop trying just because it's unattainable... after all... perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence. 

 

IMO, a good first step would be to eliminate the "women's sports" nomenclature.    Change the name to something non-gender specific.... "alternate 100m relay" for example.... instead of the " women's 100m relay".    At the same time enforce strict hormone guidelines... allowing athletes to compete in whatever competition they'd like as long as their naturally occurring hormone levels are within bounds.    Maybe even have a third category for those using synthetic hormones.    

 

I think ultimately there will be a move for more co-ed competition in all sports. Co-ed rec leagues are as popular as ever. I could see this taking off at the minor pro level. 

 

You would have three groups instead of two. You will get some spillage into the purely men's and purely women's categories, but having a middle ground where men and women are competing together would allow less dominant male athletes and more dominant female athletes looking for a challenge beyond women's sports to compete together. 

[josie]

Problem is that testosterone isn't the 100% cause for all athletic and physical prowess... it's not the only difference between men and women, athletic and unathletic, physically dominant and physically capable.

You're correct. 

 

I think all ideas are problematic in some way. I went straight to the source of complaint- which seemingly is hormones. Perhaps there is a better quantifiable resource.

 

Times in heats/races. Weight amounts. But then team sports get tricky. 

 

Perhaps a massive overhaul of the system is uncalled for, and it's just good ol' fashioned acceptance that'll do the trick. That's a variable we cannot test at this time. 

 

I love things like the Olympics because you see such diversity in the athletes. I've been a fan of studies in forensic anthropology for a long time. The different markers in skeletal construct between people of different descent is amazing in its own right. Such a wide range! And all running on the same track. Science and nature are cool- and often tough to create clean organized stalls with (excluding dichotomous keys haha). I think I'm getting off topic. Oops. 

 

I dunno, but it's worth being willing to consider alternative avenues. 

[Hank]

Yes, both have an advantage, and it's not their fault... that we can agree upon.   

 

However, Shaq is not trying to compete in a league for short people only, there are no height limitations in competitive basketball.

 

The woman with high testosterone (eg, tall person in the example i gave above) is competing in a women's only (eg, short people) league.... which, to me, seems unfair to women with normal hormone levels.... and it encourages doping to compete against the testosterone advantaged.    

 

I'd like to clarify, I don't have an opinion on the right way to handle these cases because I don't know enough about it.... which is why I'm bringing it up.       I respect folks to identify however they want, but when it comes to competitive sports with money, sponsorships, livelihoods on the line, there has to be some rules in place to prevent a "man" from competing as a woman.

If her (his?) testosterone level is natural than there's nothing wrong with that. It's just good luck (God given?). Men have different testosterone levels too. If she's (he's?) on a test cycle (test-E, test-P,supertest) than that's performance enhancing, illegal, and she (he) should be suspended (banned?) from a women's league. Transitioning to a man does not PEDs okay.

[sabills]

If her (his?) testosterone level is natural than there's nothing wrong with that. It's just good luck (God given?). Men have different testosterone levels too. If she's (he's?) on a test cycle (test-E, test-P,supertest) than that's performance enhancing, illegal, and she (he) should be suspended (banned?) from a women's league. Transitioning to a man does not PEDs okay.

For reference, its He/His/Him for a person who identifies as male.