OT Beauts Player Making History

[qwksndmonster]

Well this thread just got a big bag of nope dumped on it.

[pi2000]

From my reading of the article, the player was born, and appeared to be, a girl. NO man parts. Get it? But the brain inside that girl's body feels like it should be a dude. I'm pretty sure that's it. He wasn't a man who chose to be a woman for a while to have an advantage playing against women; he was born a woman who decided she is a man.

 

You to be sure it's the other way around; I'm not sure how you got there.

The artcle doesn't say what parts he has. It's not always either or... there are intersex cases where both parts are present or some form of both parts. If he's identifying as a man, he probably has a high enough testosterone level such that he's somewhere in the middle of the male female spectrum.

 

If he wants to be considered a man, then good for him, I really don't give a . But if hes competing in a female only sport, then there needs to be a line drawn somewhere between male and female.

Edited October 8, 2016 by pi2000

[Hoss]

If you want to draw a line then you're eliminating transgender individuals from athletic professions. Transgender males will never qualify to play among men and transgender females will be considered to dominant to participate among women.

 

I'm so tired of this discussion and having to educate people. It's not 1964. It's your job to educate yourself. If you're unwilling to keep up then disappear and let society evolve without your negative space.

 

That trash from matter above about "I've got news for you people have hated since the beginning of time I'm an ignorant loser and here's an extended excuse blah blah" is absolute garbage. Nobody believes that a world where we all love, honor and respect one another is a possibility. That's never the goal. But an improved world with more educated people who are capable of those qualities is the world we all want/need.

And none of that has anything to do with your "who cares" post. That post was predictable lazy garble. A lot of people care. Everybody should. Bigoted shitheads don't.

 

Also, pi: the article did specify what sexual organs he has when it said he is a "transgender male" who hasn't had transition surgery... he's not intersex. But you know that and just want to muddy the conversation. His +/- is XX and it's irrelevant.

 

I'd hit it preop.

Ban this plug. Thanks. Edited October 8, 2016 by Hoss

[JJFIVEOH]

Hoss, don't worry. I saw your post before you deleted it. That's pretty much all you needed to say. 

[sabills]

It's easier once you know people who are going through it. Jo taught a student who transitioned and we are friends with a man who is transitioning from being Samantha. It's just completely not weird at all once you've encountered it enough.

I don't have any trans friends, so for me it was just exposure to the idea on the internet. I think I learned most of what I know from a webcomic, actually: questionablecontent.net. 

 

The problem is people thinking someday 100% of the world will all hold hands and sing Kumbaya together.  I got news for you...war, fighting, killing, slavery and not liking other groups of people go back to our earliest ancestors when Neandrathals and H0mo-Sapiens used to fight amongst each other because they were different groups of people.  

 

I'm not here to tell you its right, I'm simply telling you that's just the way it is and always has been back to our earliest times on earth.  Thinking that is going to change is just being exceptionally naive.

 

Unfortunately its ingrained in our collective beings.  No amount of "sensitivity training" or "teaching" or anything else is going to change that in many people. If you think we are bad you should go see what happens in places like India or China to people who look different from them.  Every person on earth has inherent biases and prejudices based on how they were raised.  Some are worse than others.  Some go to the extreme.  But everyone has them. Including you.

 

People talk about the common human condition?  Well, that is war and destruction of other races and peoples.  Go back and read thousands of years of history and you'll see that very clearly.

1) No one thinks that. Well, very few people think that. But just because its inevitable that humans will continue hating and hurting other humans, that doesn't mean you or I have to be the ones who participate in it.

 

2) See, thats just not true, though. Maybe it will be difficult to do in one generation, but exposure and teaching on the subject absolutely make a difference. I'll give you a real life example: my mom is very conservative and religious. Not that she would ever engage in any sort of hate speech of anyone, but there was always a subtle condemnation for this sort of thing, kind of like your grandparents talking about a black man marrying a white girl; "well, I just don't approve". She's a teacher in the local schools, and they had a class on the subject to educate the faculty and staff on how to deal with it. The next time I saw her the subject came up, and she talked about how she never thought about how hard it must be for those kids, and how obviously they wouldn't go through something like that unless the alternative was even worse for them. She was almost in tears about it. Prior to that she had no real world exposure to the subject; that class gave her a lot of perspective on it.

 

3) The world is a much, much less violent place than it was even 100 years ago. There is no reason to assume that trend can't continue.

 

The way I see it is, the liberal agenda wants everybody to be equal. So if you're going to make exceptions when it comes to differentiating males and females based on physical performance, then they're just being hypocrites. 

Well if you're talking about that then there should be no women's leagues at all, and they should have to compete with men on every level. And that's just not going to cut it; no one in their right mind is going to tell you that there's no physical difference between men and women. Hell, thats the whole point of this thing. However, if the main difference between the two, performance wise anyways, is the hormone levels, then thats all that should really matter, right?

Edited October 8, 2016 by sabills

[Huckleberry]

You know, we just didn't learn a lot about this stuff back in my day.  I feel very ignorant and uncomfortable discussing trans issues.

 

back in your day, but even nowadays we never have.    But in professional sports I do have issues with this.

A female hockey player becoming a man should be going to the NHL tbh, the hormone treatments don't seem to me that it keeps things fair still.

 

But that is an issue every sports league around the world will have to start dealing with.

[Neo]

This would interest me. Presuming no ill or ignorance in any of us, I'll ask:

 

Q1). Do we want sports segregated by gender because it acknowledges differences and levels competitors?

Q2). What methodology will we employ to segregate?

 

 

I'll answer for me:

 

A1). I do because I believe it does.

A2). I don't know but discussing it isn't a sign of prejudice or ignorance. Discussing it is a necessary means to end #1.

 

7,299,999,999 answers to follow.

Edited October 8, 2016 by N'eo

[Eleven]

back in your day, but even nowadays we never have.    But in professional sports I do have issues with this.

A female hockey player becoming a man should be going to the NHL tbh, the hormone treatments don't seem to me that it keeps things fair still.

 

But that is an issue every sports league around the world will have to start dealing with.

I don't think she is undergoing the treatments yet. Or do I refer to this person as he? Genuinely confused as to the rules. I know I refer to Caitlyn Jenner as she, but she has completed transition.

[darksabre]

I don't think she is undergoing the treatments yet. Or do I refer to this person as he? Genuinely confused as to the rules. I know I refer to Caitlyn Jenner as she, but she has completed transition.

If someone has decided that they're transitioning, you refer to them by the gender they want to be referred to. So it could be a hairy dude but if he wants to be Karen then she's Karen. (I actually worked with this person years ago.)

I don't have any trans friends, so for me it was just exposure to the idea on the internet. I think I learned most of what I know from a webcomic, actually: questionablecontent.net.

 

1) No one thinks that. Well, very few people think that. But just because its inevitable that humans will continue hating and hurting other humans, that doesn't mean you or I have to be the ones who participate in it.

 

2) See, thats just not true, though. Maybe it will be difficult to do in one generation, but exposure and teaching on the subject absolutely make a difference. I'll give you a real life example: my mom is very conservative and religious. Not that she would ever engage in any sort of hate speech of anyone, but there was always a subtle condemnation for this sort of thing, kind of like your grandparents talking about a black man marrying a white girl; "well, I just don't approve". She's a teacher in the local schools, and they had a class on the subject to educate the faculty and staff on how to deal with it. The next time I saw her the subject came up, and she talked about how she never thought about how hard it must be for those kids, and how obviously they wouldn't go through something like that unless the alternative was even worse for them. She was almost in tears about it. Prior to that she had no real world exposure to the subject; that class gave her a lot of perspective on it.

 

3) The world is a much, much less violent place than it was even 100 years ago. There is no reason to assume that trend can't continue.

 

Well if you're talking about that then there should be no women's leagues at all, and they should have to compete with men on every level. And that's just not going to cut it; no one in their right mind is going to tell you that there's no physical difference between men and women. Hell, thats the whole point of this thing. However, if the main difference between the two, performance wise anyways, is the hormone levels, then thats all that should really matter, right?

Great stuff here. Questionable Content was huge in educating me as well.

[matter2003]

I don't have any trans friends, so for me it was just exposure to the idea on the internet. I think I learned most of what I know from a webcomic, actually: questionablecontent.net.

 

1) No one thinks that. Well, very few people think that. But just because its inevitable that humans will continue hating and hurting other humans, that doesn't mean you or I have to be the ones who participate in it.

 

2) See, thats just not true, though. Maybe it will be difficult to do in one generation, but exposure and teaching on the subject absolutely make a difference. I'll give you a real life example: my mom is very conservative and religious. Not that she would ever engage in any sort of hate speech of anyone, but there was always a subtle condemnation for this sort of thing, kind of like your grandparents talking about a black man marrying a white girl; "well, I just don't approve". She's a teacher in the local schools, and they had a class on the subject to educate the faculty and staff on how to deal with it. The next time I saw her the subject came up, and she talked about how she never thought about how hard it must be for those kids, and how obviously they wouldn't go through something like that unless the alternative was even worse for them. She was almost in tears about it. Prior to that she had no real world exposure to the subject; that class gave her a lot of perspective on it.

 

3) The world is a much, much less violent place than it was even 100 years ago. There is no reason to assume that trend can't continue.

 

Well if you're talking about that then there should be no women's leagues at all, and they should have to compete with men on every level. And that's just not going to cut it; no one in their right mind is going to tell you that there's no physical difference between men and women. Hell, thats the whole point of this thing. However, if the main difference between the two, performance wise anyways, is the hormone levels, then thats all that should really matter, right?

Hey I agree. I don't participate in it. I think people should be able to do what they want to do as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. Want to be a crossdresser? Go for it. Change from a man to a woman back to a man or vice versa? Knock yourself out. Be gay, lesbian, bi, etc? Hey do what you do.

 

I'm a non judgemental person in that regard, but at the same time I don't really care about it, and I certainly don't need to keep reading about it over and over again.

 

The other poster is right...its not 1964. And as such, this should be considered no big deal, but it still is.

 

And no offense to anyone but in some cases it's just gone overboard. Transgenders can choose whatever bathrooms they want to use, which gives pedophiles a perfect excuse to walk into a woman's bathroom to sexually assault 5 and 6 year old kids which has already happened. Why do my little girls not have the right to not face sexual assaults in public restrooms from predators posing as transgenders as much as they have the right to use any bathroom? What is the more serious risk here?

 

Politicians in the drive to be politically correct simply don't even consider the real world effects from their decisions too many times.

 

Because the real world effect of one of my daughter's being abused in a public restroom will result in that guy being stomped by me until he will never get the chance to do it again, and then I'd be the one going to jail for it. When it never should have had the opportunity to occur in the first place.

Edited October 8, 2016 by matter2003

[Sabel79]

This is one of those things... I can't help myself:

 

Statistically speaking, Republican members of Congress commit sex crimes in bathrooms at an exponentially higher rate than the transgendered, based on actual documented cases.  There's just no evidence to support the wailing on this issue.  It's already (and nothing has changed even with recent legislation regarding who can use what bathroom) rather illegal in every state for someone to sneak into a bathroom, regardless of gender or any other factor, and commit a sex crime.  I promise you this is true. 

 

People just want to pee, man.  Not everyone is trying to rape your children. Or anybody.  Frankly, you'd be surprised at who is, but that's not for this topic. 

[JJFIVEOH]

 

 

Well if you're talking about that then there should be no women's leagues at all, and they should have to compete with men on every level. And that's just not going to cut it; no one in their right mind is going to tell you that there's no physical difference between men and women. Hell, thats the whole point of this thing. However, if the main difference between the two, performance wise anyways, is the hormone levels, then thats all that should really matter, right?

 

You're absolutely right, there shouldn't be. If there is this push for equality, then there shouldn't be any lines drawn. If lines are drawn, then it sets a double standard. There is a narrative to make everything equal, the left gets upset when the right wants to draw a line (i.e., bathrooms) but it's OK when the left wants to draw a line? 

 

For the record, I couldn't care less. I just wish people would recognize that even though, overall we're equal, we're not the same. Men and women are good and bad at different things. It's evolutionary traits ingrained in every species over hundreds of millions of years.  

[NHLBUFF]

http://www.campaignlifecoalition.com/index.php?p=Gender_Identity_laws

 

I'll probably get raked over the coals for this, but the other side has a voice.

[Eleven]

http://www.campaignlifecoalition.com/index.php?p=Gender_Identity_laws

I'll probably get raked over the coals for this, but the other side has a voice.

I am not going to rake you over the coals, but when an article starts like this...

 

For years, gay activists in Canada and the U.S. have tried to create a spurious, new right to "gender identity" and "gender expression".

 

...I know that it's not exactly going to be balanced.

 

d4rk are you saying I should refer to the individual in question as "he"?

[sabills]

You're absolutely right, there shouldn't be. If there is this push for equality, then there shouldn't be any lines drawn. If lines are drawn, then it sets a double standard. There is a narrative to make everything equal, the left gets upset when the right wants to draw a line (i.e., bathrooms) but it's OK when the left wants to draw a line? 

 

For the record, I couldn't care less. I just wish people would recognize that even though, overall we're equal, we're not the same. Men and women are good and bad at different things. It's evolutionary traits ingrained in every species over hundreds of millions of years.  

I think what we want, in general, is equal rights and equal respect for all as a baseline, not necessarily everyone treated as the same exact person all the time. Hell with men and women, there's evolutionary traits that make me different  from other men. I could work out every day of my life and never be this guy: 

 

I could study constantly, apply myself fully, and never be Steven Hawking. People are different, which is good and we should celebrate those differences. The point is, entirely, to judge people as individuals, as who they are as a person, not base my assumptions on one fact I know about them.

 

As for sports, whether there should be men/womens pro leagues and competitions is an interesting question. I've always wondered about it, especially in the olympics. Is there any reason we can't have mixed gender curling competitions? Archery? IDK, people of those sports could tell you better. For stuff like hockey and football and golf, the answer is simply that making women compete at the same level means that women would not be able to compete (in most cases). So then, if there was a woman who was good enough to play, like the one girl from the Little League Baseball World Series last year, if she can be good enough to pitch in the majors, there's no reason we shouldn't let her, right? But then what about the guys who aren't good enough for the NBA, should they be allowed in the WNBA? Probably not, because then its not the WNBA, its just a minor league basketball. Shouldn't it be a two way street?

 

And this is where we get back to the fact that not everything IS equal. You have to treat every situation, like every person, as its own individual thing. There are no universal laws or answers for just about anything, unfortunately.

I am not going to rake you over the coals, but when an article starts like this...

 

For years, gay activists in Canada and the U.S. have tried to create a spurious, new right to "gender identity" and "gender expression".

 

...I know that it's not exactly going to be balanced.

 

d4rk are you saying I should refer to the individual in question as "he"?

Yeah, he identifies as a man, so you refer to him as a man, with male pronouns. 

[darksabre]

I am not going to rake you over the coals, but when an article starts like this...

 

For years, gay activists in Canada and the U.S. have tried to create a spurious, new right to "gender identity" and "gender expression".

 

...I know that it's not exactly going to be balanced.

 

d4rk are you saying I should refer to the individual in question as "he"?

Yes.

[Eleven]

 

Yeah, he identifies as a man, so you refer to him as a man, with male pronouns. 

 

Ok, I can do that easily enough.  I hope I remember which player it is so that I don't make a mistake at a game.

[qwksndmonster]

If someone has decided that they're transitioning, you refer to them by the gender they want to be referred to. So it could be a hairy dude but if he wants to be Karen then she's Karen. (I actually worked with this person years ago.)

 

Great stuff here. Questionable Content was huge in educating me as well.

I love QC. Jeff Jacques approaches real life issues very positively in a really grounded way. I feel like most works of fiction turn the angst/drama up to 11 in a lot of those situations.

[Eleven]

Just saw TBN sports section.  He's the headline.  Looks like he scored the only Buffalo goal last night.

[Hoss]

Just saw TBN sports section. He's the headline. Looks like he scored the only Buffalo goal last night.

Indeed he did. You'll see a bunch of stories today as multiple media outlets spoke to him, the head coach and Dani Rylan (commish of the NWHL) last night.

 

 

On "liberal agendas" - no. LGBTQ issues are NOT political issues. JJ direct messaged me saying it's a liberal issue because it damn well isn't a conservative one, but I think conservatives are the only ones with an issue on the subject.

 

This isn't politics.

[matter2003]

This is one of those things... I can't help myself:

 

Statistically speaking, Republican members of Congress commit sex crimes in bathrooms at an exponentially higher rate than the transgendered, based on actual documented cases.  There's just no evidence to support the wailing on this issue.  It's already (and nothing has changed even with recent legislation regarding who can use what bathroom) rather illegal in every state for someone to sneak into a bathroom, regardless of gender or any other factor, and commit a sex crime.  I promise you this is true. 

 

People just want to pee, man.  Not everyone is trying to rape your children. Or anybody.  Frankly, you'd be surprised at who is, but that's not for this topic. 

 

That's the whole point I'm making...that it isn't the transgendered people doing it...its the pedophiles who pretend to be transgendered and are now empowered to use "any bathroom they see fit" in major retail outlets like Target, etc...

 

Who has the greater chance for their rights to be violated in this situation?  Little kids don't have millions of dollars and dozens of lobbyists living in Washington DC and talking with Congressmen on their behalf so I guess they just don't matter.  It's despicable how politics work.

[pi2000]

If you want to draw a line then you're eliminating transgender individuals from athletic professions. Transgender males will never qualify to play among men and transgender females will be considered to dominant to participate among women.

 

I'm so tired of this discussion and having to educate people. It's not 1964. It's your job to educate yourself. If you're unwilling to keep up then disappear and let society evolve without your negative space.

 

That trash from matter above about "I've got news for you people have hated since the beginning of time I'm an ignorant loser and here's an extended excuse blah blah" is absolute garbage. Nobody believes that a world where we all love, honor and respect one another is a possibility. That's never the goal. But an improved world with more educated people who are capable of those qualities is the world we all want/need.

And none of that has anything to do with your "who cares" post. That post was predictable lazy garble. A lot of people care. Everybody should. Bigoted shitheads don't.

 

Also, pi: the article did specify what sexual organs he has when it said he is a "transgender male" who hasn't had transition surgery... he's not intersex. But you know that and just want to muddy the conversation. His +/- is XX and it's irrelevant.

 

Ban this plug. Thanks.

The Olympics checks testosterone levels before allowing people to compete in female events. Are they bigots too?

 

Does the NWHL check testosterone levels? If not, how do think you the last girl cut from the team feels about losing her job to a man?

Edited October 8, 2016 by pi2000

[sabills]

That's the whole point I'm making...that it isn't the transgendered people doing it...its the pedophiles who pretend to be transgendered and are now empowered to use "any bathroom they see fit" in major retail outlets like Target, etc...

 

Who has the greater chance for their rights to be violated in this situation?  Little kids don't have millions of dollars and dozens of lobbyists living in Washington DC and talking with Congressmen on their behalf so I guess they just don't matter.  It's despicable how politics work.

 

Are there any reports that this has happened? A very large amount of pedophiles are men that prey on young boys, so I don't see how using a different bathroom makes literally any difference.

The Olympics checks testosterone levels before allowing people to compete in female events. Are they bigots too?

 

Does the NWHL check testosterone levels? If not, how do think you the last girl cut from the team feels about losing her job to a man?

 

Harrison has female levels of testosterone because he has yet to go under any hormone therapy. At least read the article first, dude.

[Eleven]

Are there any reports that this has happened? A very large amount of pedophiles are men that prey on young boys, so I don't see how using a different bathroom makes literally any difference.

 

Harrison has female levels of testosterone because he has yet to go under any hormone therapy. At least read the article first, dude.

 

No.  It's this election's version of flag burning / gays in the military / sanctity of marriage / insert non-issue that won't matter in five years.

[Wyldnwoody44]

Hmmm, I don't know where to begin.... I typically stay out of these things.

 

I have read many cases and personally seen births by "transgender" etc individuals. There is just so much that goes into some of these cases..... With that said, I believe (as in almost any case) the new influx of this movement has brought out the true suffering men and women.... But along with it, has brought to the forefront a good number of many who are "identifying" for less that notable causes. Call it human nature or whatever, but it's happening.

 

I will not sit here and tell anyone what is right or wrong or acceptable. It's a tricky situation on a multitude of levels.

 

Sports aside, I have several patients, whether in the office or in an ER consult that are transgender, and when I see them, they get treated the same way as the rich trophy wife of a local business man as well as the patient that barely brings home 12k a year. It just needs to be this way, at least for me.

 

I see no issue with brownie playing in the woman's league, with full female anatomy. Who cares if testosterone is up maybe a little (which is unconfirmed). It's equivalent to African Americans naturally having better muscle hypertrophy than other races,basically just simple genetics. It's not wrong or intolerant, it's just a natural variant in our world.