Sabres and Concussions

[dudacek]

What did Ennis say that made it seem like that?

Basically, I'm all better now and I love to play hockey.

Story here:

http://sabres.buffalonews.com/2016/06/22/giving-up-the-game-a-difficult-choice-for-concussed-nhl-players/

 

I must say, and excellent series from John Vogl - well-researched and written.

[Thorner]

Basically, I'm all better now and I love to play hockey.

Story here:http://sabres.buffalonews.com/2016/06/22/giving-up-the-game-a-difficult-choice-for-concussed-nhl-players/

I must say, and excellent series from John Vogl - well-researched and written.

Interesting. You don't think he's healed up? Admittedly, athletes would certainly almost always be predisposed to lean towards that sentiment.

[dudacek]

Interesting. You don't think he's healed up? Admittedly, athletes would certainly almost always be predisposed to lean towards that sentiment.

I have no idea, but I also have no doubt Ennis is choosing to ignore the fact he could be one Gudas away from being like those guys in the lawsuit.

[Thorner]

I have no idea, but I also have no doubt Ennis is choosing to ignore the fact he could be one Gudas away from being like those guys in the lawsuit.

Sad and likely true.

[Weave]

Interesting. You don't think he's healed up? Admittedly, athletes would certainly almost always be predisposed to lean towards that sentiment.

 

My opinion;  You don't "heal up" from a concussion.  You may be symptom free, but the next one takes less impact than the last one.

[Thorner]

My opinion;  You don't "heal up" from a concussion.  You may be symptom free, but the next one takes less impact than the last one.

 

This is true. But people can recover. I use Sid and Bergeron as examples. They have taken plenty of bumps the last few years and have fared fine. After years of problems. They have been able to rehabilitate. 

 

But definitely, once you get one concussion, you are supoosed to be more susceptible for another. 

[Weave]

This is true. But people can recover. I use Sid and Bergeron as examples. They have taken plenty of bumps the last few years and have fared fine. After years of problems. They have been able to rehabilitate.

 

But definitely, once you get one concussion, you are supoosed to be more susceptible for another.

I think we will need alot more time before we can say that Crosby is "recovered".

[Thorner]

I think we will need alot more time before we can say that Crosby is "recovered".

 

Really?

 

So are you saying once you get one serious concussion, full recovery is unlikely? Or if that's more a comment on the time frame, what is generally the amount of time that has to pass before one is declared "recovered"? He certainly seems to be fine now. To my mind he's only had one severe concussion, suffered in that outdoor game against Washington. Triggered again by the Hedman hit. I may be missing one though. 

 

Although, I remember there being talk that Crosby's issue was more neck related in actuality. 

Edited June 24, 2016 by Thorny

[IKnowPhysics]

Other interesting quotes from Ennis, who sadly seems to fooling himself (and also reflecting the mindset of pretty much every 20-something elite athlete.

He could be fooling himself or saying what he thinks he needs to say to get back on the ice.

Edited June 24, 2016 by IKnowPhysics

[darksabre]

Really?

 

So are you saying once you get one serious concussion, full recovery is unlikely? Or if that's more a comment on the time frame, what is generally the amount of time that has to pass before one is declared "recovered"? He certainly seems to be fine now. To my mind he's only had one severe concussion, suffered in that outdoor game against Washington. Triggered again by the Hedman hit. I may be missing one though. 

 

Although, I remember there being talk that Crosby's issue was more neck related in actuality. 

No one ever "recovers" from a concussion. You might stop having symptoms, but the damage is done. Every concussion you get makes the next one easier. If we "recovered" from concussions this would not be the case. 

 

But concussions compound. Little ones add up over time. Big ones just increase the rate of damage. 

 

Crosby might not have symptoms anymore. But he's not "recovered". 

[Weave]

Really?

 

So are you saying once you get one serious concussion, full recovery is unlikely? Or if that's more a comment on the time frame, what is generally the amount of time that has to pass before one is declared "recovered"? He certainly seems to be fine now. To my mind he's only had one severe concussion, suffered in that outdoor game against Washington. Triggered again by the Hedman hit. I may be missing one though.

 

Although, I remember there being talk that Crosby's issue was more neck related in actuality.

No, I'm saying that we wont know if there is lasting effects for possibly years. He may be symptom free now, but that doesnt mean there isn't damage that will only be confirmed if he donates his brain to be evaluated when he dies.

[Thorner]

No one ever "recovers" from a concussion. You might stop having symptoms, but the damage is done. Every concussion you get makes the next one easier. If we "recovered" from concussions this would not be the case. 

 

But concussions compound. Little ones add up over time. Big ones just increase the rate of damage. 

 

Crosby might not have symptoms anymore. But he's not "recovered". 

 

 

No, I'm saying that we wont know if there is lasting effects for possibly years. He may be symptom free now, but that doesnt mean there isn't damage that will only be confirmed if he donates his brain to be evaluated when he dies.

 

Helpful. 

 

Was using the term "recovery" in terms of being fit to continue playing the game. But in the broader sense this makes a lot of sense. 

 

Let's hope the damage stays limited. 

Edited June 24, 2016 by Thorny

[Sabel79]

Posting this talk from LaFontaine here. It's terrifying.

 

I was there for the game against the Flyers he references halfway through, November of 96. He's wrong, though. He didn't make it through that game. He hit the ice after an innocuous hit in the first period, didn't come back that night, never played for the Sabres again.

 

As someone who has had at least three diagnosed concussions, the last one getting ugly as I've detailed on this board previously, it's sobering. Also, might just explain, or at least give more info to consider in re: the spectacular, if short, failure that was his tenure in the front office.

 

https://youtu.be/Kgv6v84DCzo

[That Aud Smell]

Lord, that is hard to watch and listen to.

[Marvelo]

Unfortunately, Rick Martin was discovered to have CTE after his death. He only had one concussion during his career, a violent collision which left his leg convulsing in the air. He had 14 fights in his whole career. CTE was previously assumed to only have been for fighters but looking at Martin, maybe they all get it to some degree. How CTE shows up later in life for light head trauma victims, as opposed to heavy head trauma victims, has a slower-developing but equally tragic effect with dementia/ptsd.  http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/06/sports/hockey/rick-martin-had-disease-related-to-brain-trauma.html

[darksabre]

Unfortunately, Rick Martin was discovered to have CTE after his death. He only had one concussion during his career, a violent collision which left his leg convulsing in the air. He had 14 fights in his whole career. CTE was previously assumed to only have been for fighters but looking at Martin, maybe they all get it to some degree. How CTE shows up later in life for light head trauma victims, as opposed to heavy head trauma victims, has a slower-developing but equally tragic effect with dementia/ptsd.  http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/06/sports/hockey/rick-martin-had-disease-related-to-brain-trauma.html

Yeah, the research that has been done on CTE and concussions so far seems to point to the fact that many small non-concussion impacts over a lifetime can cause almost as much damage as a few big concussions. 

 

So Rick might have only had one major concussion in his life, but playing in the days before helmets means he probably suffered a lot of smaller bumps that added up. Plus who knows how many undocumented minor concussions he had. 

[Marvelo]

Yeah, the research that has been done on CTE and concussions so far seems to point to the fact that many small non-concussion impacts over a lifetime can cause almost as much damage as a few big concussions. 

 

So Rick might have only had one major concussion in his life, but playing in the days before helmets means he probably suffered a lot of smaller bumps that added up. Plus who knows how many undocumented minor concussions he had. 

 

I've had at least five or six concussions. If you see the sterling quality of my posts go down, you know why. 

[SwampD]

What is the CTE rate found in all brains?

[darksabre]

I've had at least five or six concussions. If you see the sterling quality of my posts go down, you know why. 

 

:lol: 

 

What is the CTE rate found in all brains?

Good question. I would assume it's substantially lower for people who don't engage in sports of any kind. We all probably suffer brain damage as kids when we're falling and hitting our heads on stuff, so there's probably a baseline there. Figure plenty of adults get in car accidents which probably can cause it. 

 

I can't help thinking that the dispersal of impact energy through the body contributes to CTE even if you aren't getting hit in the head. Any above-average collision might be contributing. 

[Weave]

What is the CTE rate found in all brains?

 

I went googling and didn't find much.  It does appear that control subjects are part of every study I came across, so they do seem to be comparing to "normal" folk.

 

I did get this though (link and quote below), which is why I put normal in quotes.  Head injuries are key.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4255271/

 

As stated above, to-date, all individuals with neuropathologically confirmed CTE have a history of repetitive head impacts.

 

 

So it appears that they are not finding CTE outside of instances with repeated head trauma.