Vesey signs with Rangers; huge thread now moot

[TrueBlueGED]

Stepan, Kreider, Hayes, Zibanejad and Miller - the Rangers have a solid group of Vesey-age forwards and he could conceivably see himself sliding into Nash's role and tax bracket in two years.

Don't see them as a team on the rise, but the fit makes more sense than some make it out to be, especially when you factor in that he's as close to home as it gets without the hometown pressure.

They're the post-Drury/Briere Sabres with a better goaltender.

I haven't read all the debate, but IMHO when New York, Boston, Toronto, Chicago and Pittsburgh are all in on a guy with Buffalo and $ is pretty much the same, I see Buffalo winning the day exactly 0% of the time. Call it because Buffalo or whatever you like, I just call it the hard reality.

Even when we start winning more hockey games than those teams?

[SDS]

If everyone still wants to talk about the Vesey deal - we can leave this open. But, the discussion has clearly gone off the rails...

[Claude_Verret]

They're the post-Drury/Briere Sabres with a better goaltender.

 

Even when we start winning more hockey games than those teams?

With the same JV scenario with the Sabres as a perennial playoff team I'd say 5-10% chance, but a real free agent scenario with our deep pocketed owner allows us to sweeten the deal enough to compensate for much of because Buffalo eventually. It's always going to be an issue on some level for the Sabres IMO.

[dudacek]

I haven't read all the debate, but IMHO when New York, Boston, Toronto, Chicago and Pittsburgh are all in on a guy with Buffalo and $ is pretty much the same, I see Buffalo winning the day exactly 0% of the time.  Call it because Buffalo or whatever you like, I just call it the hard reality.

You would think that, but When was the last time the Bruins, or the Leafs scored big in free agency?

Franchise centres and Stanley Cups are an advantage, absolutely.

I don't think it is a coincidence that the biggest free agents of this summer signed with McDavid's team, and with Eichel's.

[GASabresIUFAN]

You would think that, but When was the last time the Bruins, or the Leafs scored big in free agency?

Franchise centres and Stanley Cups are an advantage, absolutely.

I don't think it is a coincidence that the biggest free agents of this summer signed with McDavid's team, and with Eichel's.

This is why the JV signing with the Rags doesn't make much sense. Their top centers are Stepan and Hayes. Brassard is gone. ROR and Eichel, Malkin and Crosby, Tavares & Nelson, and Bergeron & Krejci are all better top 2 centers. Frankly, with the Rags aging D and goalie and mediocre centers, I thought they were one of the worst options for JV. Oh well.

 

How do you become a huge star if someone can't get you the puck?

 

However, while we are definitiely an improved destination then in the past I agree with the general thought that until we start winning consistently, we will still lose many if not most of these battles.

[LGR4GM]

This is why the JV signing with the Rags doesn't make much sense. Their top centers are Stepan and Hayes. Brassard is gone. ROR and Eichel, Malkin and Crosby, Tavares & Nelson, and Bergeron & Krejci are all better top 2 centers. Frankly, with the Rags aging D and goalie and mediocre centers, I thought they were one of the worst options for JV. Oh well.

 

How do you become a huge star if someone can't get you the puck?

 

However, while we are definitiely an improved destination then in the past I agree with the general thought that until we start winning consistently, we will still lose many if not most of these battles.

Enlighten me, what big UFA have we lost out on to recently? Say last 2 years.

[Brawndo]

Vesey held a conference call with reporters 

 

 

 

"They don't expect me to come in and be a savior," Vesey said. "I think I'm just a piece they want to add, and hopefully I can help the New York Rangers win hockey games."

 

I wonder if any of the teams courting him actually said he could be a savior?

 

Also he was not promised and supposedly was not looking for any guaranteed playing time.

 

 

 

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/bd00a26996a947a7a275728d576fff28/rangers-win-jimmy-vesey-sweepstakes?cache

[Stoner]

THIS is what the question and answer forum was supposed to be for, so that this doesn't have to be rehashed.

 

They agreed to a contract in October. Drury signed it. Golisano didn't it. After three weeks Drury rescinded his acceptance and played out the season.

These are not objective facts you would put in a question and answer thread. Everyone has a theory on what happened and they're pretty equally valid. (But it's been so long, maybe that's exactly what happened and you can link to solid sources.)

[Randall Flagg]

Vesey held a conference call with reporters 

 

 

I wonder if any of the teams courting him actually said he could be a savior?

 

Also he was not promised and supposedly was not looking for any guaranteed playing time.

 

 

 

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/bd00a26996a947a7a275728d576fff28/rangers-win-jimmy-vesey-sweepstakes?cache

Well this makes a couple of key posters in this thread look pretty silly. Not that I expect them to acknowledge this, or stop believing that he was looking for that guarantee.

[ct fab]

Not just us, most of the other 6 teams presented better options to him than nyc: Tavares, toews/Kane, Matthews, home town of Boston, even NJ has some good young talent

[WildCard]

NJ cannot match us at center

 

He was not playing in the same line as Tavares

 

Matthews is the 3rd line center this year, and Vesey's deal is 2 years. So his center would have likely been Kadri for 1/2 his contract

[GASabresIUFAN]

Enlighten me, what big UFA have we lost out on to recently? Say last 2 years.

Besides Stamkos and Mike Babcock? It's hard to know who GMTM made offers for because he snd his staff are very tight lipped about free agency and trades, but considering he has been looking for a puck moving D for 2 years I suspect more then one, such as Mike Green, turned us down.

[nfreeman]

IMHO, some cities will always have an advantage in FA, but the list isn't much longer than NYC and LA.

 

I also think there's quite a bit of irrational confidence around here about the Sabres' future relative to the Rangers' (who have made the playoffs 6 years in a row and 10 out of the last 11, including 3 trips to the ECF and one to the SCF in the 4 years before last season).

[LGR4GM]

Besides Stamkos and Mike Babcock? It's hard to know who GMTM made offers for because he snd his staff are very tight lipped about free agency and trades, but considering he has been looking for a puck moving D for 2 years I suspect more then one, such as Mike Green, turned us down.

Babcock was a coach so not a UFA. Steven Stamkos, was signed on June 29th. Which is before July 1. Which means Steven Stamkos was never a UFA.

 

So now you suspect that UFA's have turned us down. You were able to name 1 player. Mike Green btw is a RHD and Tim Murray has specifically said he was looking for a LHD. So again, what UFA's do you have any credible evidence for that have turned us down?  We signed Okposo. ROR signed an extension before hitting UFA. Who are these mythical players we are missing out on?

 

 

I am hammering this point home for a reason. No team gets every UFA. At best you may get one every few years. What team gets UFA's all the time? Toronto hasn't, Boston hasn't, and Pittsburgh hasn't.  Big name teams that aren't pulling them in.

IMHO, some cities will always have an advantage in FA, but the list isn't much longer than NYC and LA.

 

I also think there's quite a bit of irrational confidence around here about the Sabres' future relative to the Rangers' (who have made the playoffs 6 years in a row and 10 out of the last 11, including 3 trips to the ECF and one to the SCF in the 4 years before last season).

The Rangers will be a playoff team this year but they are a cup team. They lack the necessary high end talent an depth for that.

[Stoner]

[TrueBlueGED]

IMHO, some cities will always have an advantage in FA, but the list isn't much longer than NYC and LA.

 

I also think there's quite a bit of irrational confidence around here about the Sabres' future relative to the Rangers' (who have made the playoffs 6 years in a row and 10 out of the last 11, including 3 trips to the ECF and one to the SCF in the 4 years before last season).

The Rangers are cooked the moment Lundqvist falls off.

[Thorner]

IMHO, some cities will always have an advantage in FA, but the list isn't much longer than NYC and LA.

I also think there's quite a bit of irrational confidence around here about the Sabres' future relative to the Rangers' (who have made the playoffs 6 years in a row and 10 out of the last 11, including 3 trips to the ECF and one to the SCF in the 4 years before last season).

This is a good point, but I think in general fan optimism stems from max potential. As an example, I would say that there is a fair chance that the Rangers going forward for the next couple seasons have more consistent, steady success than say a team like Toronto. However, even though Toronto's floor could be lower as they they are young and unproven, I could see Toronto (as much as I would hate to see it) developing to the point where they could win a cup, if everything comes together for them and their youth develops to their full potential. The Rangers aren't winning a cup. They don't have enough up and coming talent. Same with a team like Detroit. They'll continue their all important streak, but they aren't a contending threat.

 

Even though the consistency won't be there yet, I would be much more confident in the chances of a Toronto, Florida, or Buffalo winning a cup down the line than a New York or Detroit, even if the latter teams are more likely to make the playoffs next season.

[SDS]

These are not objective facts you would put in a question and answer thread. Everyone has a theory on what happened and they're pretty equally valid. (But it's been so long, maybe that's exactly what happened and you can link to solid sources.)

The question would be - "Could someone explain what happened with Chris Drury and why he left the Sabres!".

 

My source is from within the organization. Told to me on the golf course. Long time employee.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Babcock was a coach so not a UFA. Steven Stamkos, was signed on June 29th. Which is before July 1. Which means Steven Stamkos was never a UFA.

 

So now you suspect that UFA's have turned us down. You were able to name 1 player. Mike Green btw is a RHD and Tim Murray has specifically said he was looking for a LHD. So again, what UFA's do you have any credible evidence for that have turned us down? We signed Okposo. ROR signed an extension before hitting UFA. Who are these mythical players we are missing out on?

 

 

I am hammering this point home for a reason. No team gets every UFA. At best you may get one every few years. What team gets UFA's all the time? Toronto hasn't, Boston hasn't, and Pittsburgh hasn't. Big name teams that aren't pulling them in.

The Rangers will be a playoff team this year but they are a cup team. They lack the necessary high end talent an depth for that.

I figured you would use those excuses. However Babock was the biggest FA of 2015, coach or player. GMTM openly courted him as an important piece of the rebuild and lost. In addition, coaches have similar rules as players. Babcock couldn't talk to other teams without Det permission or until his contract expired. Stamkos was only technically not a FA. He was in the 1 week period in which he could talk to other teams and acted very much like a ufa. Stamkos used the FA rules to talk to the Sabres and others and then decided to stay in TB.

 

GMTM also lost out on the 2 biggest college FAs thus summer in Vesey and Caggiula. You also can't discount RD Mike Green in 2015 because GMTM says he wants a LD this summer. Remember he settled late in the summer 2015 for RD Franson.

 

I also never said that the Sabres would get all the top FAs or even should. I am a big believer in building through the draft and hate overpaying for UFA. However, that doesn't change the fact that top FA players want to go to winning programs. The good news is that GMTM keeps getting to the plate and landed a huge fish this year in Okposo.

Edited August 21, 2016 by GASabresIUFAN

[WildCard]

Honestly Stamkos may as well have been a FA

[apuszczalowski]

Babcock was a coach so not a UFA. Steven Stamkos, was signed on June 29th. Which is before July 1. Which means Steven Stamkos was never a UFA.

 

So now you suspect that UFA's have turned us down. You were able to name 1 player. Mike Green btw is a RHD and Tim Murray has specifically said he was looking for a LHD. So again, what UFA's do you have any credible evidence for that have turned us down?  We signed Okposo. ROR signed an extension before hitting UFA. Who are these mythical players we are missing out on?

 

 

I am hammering this point home for a reason. No team gets every UFA. At best you may get one every few years. What team gets UFA's all the time? Toronto hasn't, Boston hasn't, and Pittsburgh hasn't.  Big name teams that aren't pulling them in.

how many of those teams went after the big UFA's? The last few years Toronto has purged their roster of them and stayed out of that market. This year they tried for Seafood who went back to his original team and Vessey who went to one of the only bigger markets out there. They did make a huge FA signing by getting Babcock, who blew off buffalo for them. Pittsburgh doesn't need the top UFA's right now and don't have the cap room for them either so they have been more in the 2ND tier market.

 

As for Buffalo, sure they got Okposo, who's a great player, but not exactly one of the NHL elite, except in comparison to the weaker top end FA market once Stamkos resigned

[LGR4GM]

I figured you would use those excuses. However Babock was the biggest FA of 2015, coach or player. GMTM openly courted him as an important piece of the rebuild and lost. In addition, coaches have similar rules as players. Babcock couldn't talk to other teams without Det permission or until his contract expired. Stamkos was only technically not a FA. He was in the 1 week period in which he could talk to other teams and acted very much like a ufa. Stamkos used the FA rules to talk to the Sabres and others and then decided to stay in TB.

 

GMTM also lost out on the 2 biggest college FAs thus summer in Vesey and Caggiula. You also can't discount RD Mike Green in 2015 because GMTM says he wants a LD this summer. Remember he settled late in the summer 2015 for RD Franson.

 

I also never said that the Sabres would get all the top FAs or even should. I am a big believer in building through the draft and hate overpaying for UFA. However, that doesn't change the fact that top FA players want to go to winning programs. The good news is that GMTM keeps getting to the plate and landed a huge fish this year in Okposo.

Well if you figured that maybe you shouldn't have brought that weak sauce to this thread about Buffalo not getting UFAs.

 

This whole woo is me poor Buffalo thing is just b#lls#it.

[7+6=13]

Honestly Stamkos may as well have been a FA

 

For the purposes of saying we didn't get him or that none of the teams did?

[nfreeman]

The Rangers are cooked the moment Lundqvist falls off.

Well, there are always good goalies floating around.

 

More importantly, the Rangers have good coaching and a lot more than just Lundy. Henrik had a down year last year and they still made the playoffs.

 

The Sabres still have a long way to go to get to the Rangers' level.

Honestly Stamkos may as well have been a FA

Gotta disagree with this. He took less money to stay with his team. That's pretty different from losing out on a UFA.

[TrueBlueGED]

Well, there are always good goalies floating around.

 

More importantly, the Rangers have good coaching and a lot more than just Lundy. Henrik had a down year last year and they still made the playoffs.

 

The Sabres still have a long way to go to get to the Rangers' level.

 

 

Good goalies, sure. Lundqvist-level? Not even close. Replace Lundqvist with a league average goalie and the Rangers may have missed last season.

 

Lundqvist had a .920 SV% during the regular season, compared to a .922 career average. He was .920 two years ago as well. I really don't think it was a down year. He imploded in the playoffs and took his team with him, but that's really half the point. And he's 34--the decline is coming.

 

As to the rest of the team, there's some nice pieces in the forward ranks, but that blue line is atrocious (and that was before losing Yandle). Girardi is a corpse on skates, and Staal isn't close to what he used to be. McDonagh is a stud and better than anyone we have at the moment (though I believe in Risto!), though. The Rangers may still be the better team this coming season, but I'd be awfully surprised if that holds true the following season.