GDT: Buffalo @ Montreal, 7:30 pm est, 3-10-2016

[darksabre]

PAFan -- do you still take issue with my usage of "sociopathic?"

The hater of "bleeding heart liberals" suddenly wants my heart to bleed? Gone soft? Or are you just a hypocrite?

[darksabre]

I admit I'm trolling a bit. But clearly I've struck a nerve. I do feel bad that PK got hurt. I really don't want anyone to get hurt. But I question the genuineness of that feeling in light of the reality of the demands of pro sports, especially one with such a violent tradition as hockey. 

I don't think it's fair to the players to try to pretend we care about their health and well-being more than we really do. They get paid to play for our amusement. They know the risks of playing the game at its highest and most violent level. If we really cared we'd ask them not to do it anymore. Entertaining us isn't worth the risk.  We would feel bad for asking them to do it. We'd just watch movies about hockey, remembering the good old days before we got smart.

 

But we don't. We're happy they're willing to destroy themselves for us, and we pretend they do it just because they love it, not just because it also just happens to be the only thing they're good at and it's their ticket to financial success (if they're lucky). 

So is it empathy, or is it guilt? 

[That Aud Smell]

If we really cared we'd ask them not to do it anymore. 

 

You raise an interesting topic of debate. But this takes the matter too far. The factors at play here are far more numerous, nuanced, and complicated than that position would indicate.

[darksabre]

You raise an interesting topic of debate. But this takes the matter too far. The factors at play here are far more numerous, nuanced, and complicated than that position would indicate.

If things are "nuanced and complicated" then perhaps my apparent lack of concern for PK during the game is being met with some very oversimplified criticism. 

[That Aud Smell]

It seems to me people are in denial about the physical cost of pro sports and our complicity in it. How can you possibly feel empathy for a guy while being entertained? Every moment these guys play they're damaging their bodies irreparably. Every moment. We pay these guys truckloads of money so that we don't have to have guilty consciences when they're brain damaged and can't go outside at 40.

 

You need not be in denial of the risks people face in order to both be entertained by what they do and distraught when things jump the rails. And that goes for more than just sport, professional or otherwise.

 

The people participating in a pro sport know (well, hopefully they do (compare: concussions, days gone by)) and accept the risks associated with their sport; they're entitled to be upset when someone's badly (scarily) injured. The people paying to watch the sport are aware of the risks that the athletes are accepting. That doesn't foreclose them from feeling badly when one is badly injured. The whole proposition hasn't been reduced to a lethal bloodsport. Fans aren't hypocrites for feeling badly for a terrible injury.

 

You and PA are like bizarro brothers in some ways. So much black and white with these ones.

[nfreeman]

If things are "nuanced and complicated" then perhaps my apparent lack of concern for PK during the game is being met with some very oversimplified criticism. 

 

Or perhaps you glibly took an immature, troll-ish position, got called on it, and instead of admitting you were wrong, kept doubling down until you went way over the line.

 

You could, at any time, have raised the question as to when we should start being concerned for the players' well-being, in the context of our paying for them to entertain us by playing a violent and dangerous game.  That would've allowed for a thoughtful and enjoyable discussion.  Instead, you took it all the way to the logical extreme and dug in.

 

Why?

[That Aud Smell]

You could, at any time, have raised the question as to when we should start being concerned for the players' well-being, in the context of our paying for them to entertain us by playing a violent and dangerous game.  

 

I do think about this. Especially in connection with pro football. Those annihilation hits that used to be much more common in the NFL? They started to turn me off of the game. I don't need to see that. I don't want to see that.

 

The analysis here involves a continuum, with multiple moving parts.

[darksabre]

You need not be in denial of the risks people face in order to both be entertained by what they do and distraught when things jump the rails. And that goes for more than just sport, professional or otherwise.

 

The people participating in a pro sport know (well, hopefully they do (compare: concussions, days gone by)) and accept the risks associated with their sport; they're entitled to be upset when someone's badly (scarily) injured. The people paying to watch the sport are aware of the risks that the athletes are accepting. That doesn't foreclose them from feeling badly when one is badly injured. The whole proposition hasn't been reduced to a lethal bloodsport. Fans aren't hypocrites for feeling badly for a terrible injury.

 

You and PA are like bizarro brothers in some ways. So much black and white with these ones.

You can't have the gray area that we all hang out in without the black and white. 

 

I feel bad when players get hurt because I feel guilty. I don't think I can call it empathy. That makes it sound innocent. But I'm not so sure we're all so innocent. 

[nfreeman]

I do think about this. Especially in connection with pro football. Those annihilation hits that used to be much more common in the NFL? They started to turn me off of the game. I don't need to see that. I don't want to see that.

 

The analysis here involves a continuum, with multiple moving parts.

 

Me too.

 

I found Odell Beckham's head shot on whoever that CB was towards the end of this past season outrageous.  It literally could've killed him.  I thought OBJ should've been suspended for 10 games.

[That Aud Smell]

You can't have the gray area that we all hang out in without the black and white. 

 

Touche'!

I feel bad when players get hurt because I feel guilty. I don't think I can call it empathy. That makes it sound innocent. But I'm not so sure we're all so innocent. 

 

Hmmm. (Thinking.)

I found Odell Beckham's head shot on whoever that CB was towards the end of this past season outrageous.  It literally could've killed him.  I thought OBJ should've been suspended for 10 games.

 

It was just awful.

At the risk of opening a can of worms (one that I did not particularly enjoy, be assured), I think about the proposition of watching my kids play contact sports. Two of them, mostly - they're the ones who are super into them. We know the risks associated with those sports, and we accept them on their behalves (as they are incapable (legally) of doing so themselves). Were an injury to befall one of them, I would, of course, feel awful. And maybe not just a little guilty for allowing them to play in the first place.

 

But that's life, innit?

Edited March 11, 2016 by That Aud Smell

[darksabre]

Touche'!

 

Hmmm. (Thinking.)

 

It was just awful.

At the risk of opening a can of worms (one that I did not particularly enjoy, be assured), I think about the proposition of watching my kids play contact sports. Two of them, mostly - they're the ones who are super into them. We know the risks associated with those sports, and we accept them on their behalves (as they are incapable (legally) of doing so themselves). Were an injury to befall one of them, I would, of course, feel awful. And maybe not just a little guilty for allowing them to play in the first place.

 

But that's life, innit?

 

This is basically the "yada yada" episode of Seinfeld isn't it? 

[TrueBlueGED]

I think we can draw some kind of line between reasonable assumption of risk and truly catastrophic injuries. Routine breaks/sprains/arthritis and even things like ACL tears, I think, fall under the "reasonable assumption" category and we shouldn't feel guilty about it. That doesn't mean we can't have sympathy when it happens, but those are all things that are fairly common and have been well documented as risks for a long time--the athletes accept them and are financially compensated to a degree that I don't feel guilty about cheering for the games that may result in these types of injuries. But something like paralysis is, to me, quite a bit different--it's an exceptionally rare sports-related event and not the type of risk that is reasonably assumed upon agreeing to play, and something that is always worthy of the utmost compassion and sympathy regardless of the level of financial compensation. There does not exist in the known universe an amount of money that I would accept in exchange for paralysis of any kind. I'll always feel pretty bad when something that severe happens, though I'm not sure "guilt" is the word I'd use for it.

[nfreeman]

I think we can draw some kind of line between reasonable assumption of risk and truly catastrophic injuries. Routine breaks/sprains/arthritis and even things like ACL tears, I think, fall under the "reasonable assumption" category and we shouldn't feel guilty about it. That doesn't mean we can't have sympathy when it happens, but those are all things that are fairly common and have been well documented as risks for a long time--the athletes accept them and are financially compensated to a degree that I don't feel guilty about cheering for the games that may result in these types of injuries. But something like paralysis is, to me, quite a bit different--it's an exceptionally rare sports-related event and not the type of risk that is reasonably assumed upon agreeing to play, and something that is always worthy of the utmost compassion and sympathy regardless of the level of financial compensation. There does not exist in the known universe an amount of money that I would accept in exchange for paralysis of any kind. I'll always feel pretty bad when something that severe happens, though I'm not sure "guilt" is the word I'd use for it.

 

So you wouldn't accept, say, $2 billion in cash, tax-free, in exchange for permanent loss of your ability to wiggle your left ear? 

 

Troll.  Racist.  Hypocrite.

[That Aud Smell]

But something like paralysis is, to me, quite a bit different--it's an exceptionally rare sports-related event and not the type of risk that is reasonably assumed upon agreeing to play

 

Irony here being: Paralysis is uniformly recited as an assumed risk in just about any sports participation waiver/risk assumption form. (The enforceability of such documents is a whole 'nother story.)

[TrueBlueGED]

So you wouldn't accept, say, $2 billion in cash, tax-free, in exchange for permanent loss of your ability to wiggle your left ear?

 

Troll. Racist. Hypocrite.

I hate you.

Irony here being: Paralysis is uniformly recited as an assumed risk in just about any sports participation waiver/risk assumption form. (The enforceability of such documents is a whole 'nother story.)

Must have been one of those numerous things I never read while signing during my sporting days :lol:

 

Lawyers are the worst!

Edited March 11, 2016 by TrueBlueGED

[josie]

I think we can draw some kind of line between reasonable assumption of risk and truly catastrophic injuries. Routine breaks/sprains/arthritis and even things like ACL tears, I think, fall under the "reasonable assumption" category and we shouldn't feel guilty about it. That doesn't mean we can't have sympathy when it happens, but those are all things that are fairly common and have been well documented as risks for a long time--the athletes accept them and are financially compensated to a degree that I don't feel guilty about cheering for the games that may result in these types of injuries. But something like paralysis is, to me, quite a bit different--it's an exceptionally rare sports-related event and not the type of risk that is reasonably assumed upon agreeing to play, and something that is always worthy of the utmost compassion and sympathy regardless of the level of financial compensation. There does not exist in the known universe an amount of money that I would accept in exchange for paralysis of any kind. I'll always feel pretty bad when something that severe happens, though I'm not sure "guilt" is the word I'd use for it.

I think a basic level of human empathy is at play. And that line varies greatly from person to person, influenced by their personal experiences and individual struggles. An injury risking paralysis is extreme enough it generally qualifies for immediate concern amongst most people's empathy graph, if you will. I personally can't understand NOT feeling concern in that case. 

 

Risk assessment is based in legality- and when you're going after feeling sorry for things, I think you're starting to instate guidelines on morality... and it's not so easy to legislate morality. 

 

I live in grey areas, I think few things are black and white. I also tend to be a bleeding heart. It's why I still feel terrible for someone I'd label an idiot who screwed up their hand while drunkenly playing with fireworks while others might roll their eyes and laugh. 

 

It's circumstantial and complicated by your own primal instinct- help or not help. I have a constant mothering tendency, others seem to really widely vary between each situation placed before them. 

[SwampD]

I think he dove.

[darksabre]

I think he dove.

I think a basic level of human empathy is at play. And that line varies greatly from person to person, influenced by their personal experiences and individual struggles. An injury risking paralysis is extreme enough it generally qualifies for immediate concern amongst most people's empathy graph, if you will. I personally can't understand NOT feeling concern in that case. 

 

Risk assessment is based in legality- and when you're going after feeling sorry for things, I think you're starting to instate guidelines on morality... and it's not so easy to legislate morality. 

 

I live in grey areas, I think few things are black and white. I also tend to be a bleeding heart. It's why I still feel terrible for someone I'd label an idiot who screwed up their hand while drunkenly playing with fireworks while others might roll their eyes and laugh. 

 

It's circumstantial and complicated by your own primal instinct- help or not help. I have a constant mothering tendency, others seem to really widely vary between each situation placed before them. 

You are the yin to my yang.  :P

[josie]

 

You are the yin to my yang.  :P

Hey, someone who loves you has to let you know when you're bein' a bit of a dick <3 IN MY OPINION, of course.  :rolleyes:

[Stoner]

[3putt]

I was in BC skiing last week including a day of heli skiing.  At every juncture I had to sign waivers where I acknowledged that I was assuming the risk of injury and death.  The exception being the helicopter ride where I could buy an insurance policy for death and dismemberment. I said screw em.  Carpe diem. Saved the 30 bucks.