Buffalo Bills 2016

[That Aud Smell]

I really held out hope for him being our #1 but it just ain't gonna happen. He's injury prone and not a complete player.

If healthy and targeted 15 times a game, he'd be a star.

 

Sadly, the first "if" hasn't come to be the norm. And the second "if" has remained elusive, even when he's well enough to play.

[wjag]

If healthy and targeted 15 times a game, he'd be a star.

 

Sadly, the first "if" hasn't come to be the norm. And the second "if" has remained elusive, even when he's well enough to play.

 

 

If he was targeted 15 times a game, he would be broke more often

 

time for some to admit that he is not the answer.  If anything, he would be a good #2, but he can't stay on the pitch long enough to be a number 1 ...  and yeah, I said pitch....

Edited September 30, 2016 by wjag

[That Aud Smell]

If he was targeted 15 times a game, he would be broke more often

 

I get that. But you take my original meaning, I trust: The guy has all of the tools to do what AJ Green did last night. He just can't seem to shoulder that load. I still hold out hope that he has a better run of health and makes some serious noise.

 

The thing is: Is next year the final year in his rookie contract? If so, I'm at a loss for how a second deal gets put together. Are there comparables out there for a guy like this?

[Hoss]

Sammy Watkins does not have star talent. He's a very good wide receiver, and he is a number one if he wasn't broken. But he's not a star talent. He just can't make the plays legitimate star receivers make on a consistent basis.

The trade was atrocious. I don't think there's much debate over that anymore (I didn't think there was the second the trade was made, but we should be relatively unanimous on this thought now).

[That Aud Smell]

Sammy Watkins does not have star talent. He's a very good wide receiver, and he is a number one if he wasn't broken. But he's not a star talent. He just can't make the plays legitimate star receivers make on a consistent basis.

 

Hogwash.

 

Also, I feel like the football talent #hottakery might get dialed back just a little bit, a little bit, in the wake of Tannehill becoming ass.

What I will acknowledge: His inability to stay healthy has greatly obstructed his ability to display his full talents in anything but glimpses and spurts.

[Hoss]

Hogwash.

 

Cool catch. Does not indicate star talent definitively. 

 

Edited September 30, 2016 by Hoss

[nfreeman]

FWIW, I think Watkins has star quality when healthy -- but that qualifier to this point has swallowed the "star quality" ...uh...quality.  So he isn't a star, because a star plays, and he doesn't play enough.

 

And who has our brilliant GM brought in as a strong #2 WR, because this situation was highly foreseeable by the end of last year?  That's right -- he's brought in no one!  Just like he did at QB for 5 years until Rex made him bring in TT!

 

(BTW, I still like TT,.)

[That Aud Smell]

Cool catch. Does not indicate star talent definitively.

 

Who's dealing in the definitive? Not me.

 

I'm no NFL scout. Shoot. I might not be able to tell you reliably who the best talent on a high school team was. But Watkins has done things, shown things that, IMO, no other Bills WR ever did or could. He's absolutely a star talent.

 

Unfortunately, it appears as though his body is not suited to the grind of the NFL. 

FWIW, I think Watkins has star quality when healthy -- but that qualifier to this point has swallowed the "star quality" ...uh...quality.  So he isn't a star, because a star plays, and he doesn't play enough.

 

More than fair.

 

Hoss's take was that Watkins doesn't have star talent. That, to me, is different than saying the guy lack star quality because he can't stay on the field.

 

The talent is more of an abstract, bottled-specimen analysis. That guy is as talented as any football player in the league. That I believe.

Edited September 30, 2016 by That Aud Smell

[Eleven]

He absolutely has star talent.

 

He may not be durable.

 

He certainly wasn't worth two firsts and a fourth.

[nfreeman]

Who's dealing in the definitive? Not me.

 

I'm no NFL scout. Shoot. I might not be able to tell you reliably who the best talent on a high school team was. But Watkins has done things, shown things that, IMO, no other Bills WR ever did or could. He's absolutely a star talent.

 

Unfortunately, it appears as though his body is not suited to the grind of the NFL. 

 

More than fair.

 

Hoss's take was that Watkins doesn't have star talent. That, to me, is different than saying the guy lack star quality because he can't stay on the field.

 

The talent is more of an abstract, bottled-specimen analysis. That guy is as talented as any football player in the league. That I believe.

 

Jerry Butler, before he got hurt, was unstoppable.

 

And Moulds was close.

 

He absolutely has star talent.

 

He may not be durable.

 

He certainly wasn't worth two firsts and a fourth.

 

Yes indeedly.

[wjag]

Jerry Butler, before he got hurt, was unstoppable.

 

And Moulds was close.

 

 

Yes indeedly.

 

 

Think of what Jerry Butler's career could have been if he had Joe Montana throwing to him instead of Joe Ferguson.

[That Aud Smell]

Very much agreed that Whaley made a bad deal for the right to draft him.

 

I just don't hold that against the player.

[K-9]

Sammy Watkins does not have star talent. He's a very good wide receiver, and he is a number one if he wasn't broken. But he's not a star talent. He just can't make the plays legitimate star receivers make on a consistent basis.

The trade was atrocious. I don't think there's much debate over that anymore (I didn't think there was the second the trade was made, but we should be relatively unanimous on this thought now).

I am comfortable in saying that there isn't ONE GM, pro personnel director, coach, or scout that agrees with this assessment. The tape never lies and it hasn't since his first college game. Too bad he's never enjoyed an NFL caliber QB that can find him and other receivers running open all day. He's been unhealthy. Period. 

Edited September 30, 2016 by K-9

[That Aud Smell]

I am comfortable in saying that there isn't ONE GM, pro personnel director, coach, or scout that agrees with this assessment. The tape never lies and it hasn't since his first college game. Too bad he's never enjoyed an NFL caliber QB that can find him and other receivers running open all day. He's been unhealthy. Period. 

 

A former colleague of mine (while still a current colleague) got married a while back to a guy who played in the NFL for ~8 years (journeyman type career). Guy's smart as hell and has all kinds of interesting thoughts about football. The thing he called to my (and others') attention once about Watkins was how he has top notch speed, top notch quickness, top notch hands, but what separated him from really good receivers was his unearthly control over those small, fine movements a receiver must make while going full speed. I could not stop seeing that once he pointed it out to me. 

 

That is, when Watkins was playing and healthy (enough).

[Hoss]

Still don't agree. I just don't see it. It's not something you can really prove or disprove because of how vague "star talent" is. Based on my opinion of what star talent is and what I think Sammy Watkins has in him, I don't see it.

I also disagree with that no front office members in the entire league would agree, but I know K-9 was just being hyperbolic.

 

He's not in the class of Julio Jones, Antonio Brown, AJ Green, Odell Beckham and DeAndre Hopkins. He's in the group behind that is very good but not star material.

[K-9]

A former colleague of mine (while still a current colleague) got married a while back to a guy who played in the NFL for ~8 years (journeyman type career). Guy's smart as hell and has all kinds of interesting thoughts about football. The thing he called to my (and others') attention once about Watkins was how he has top notch speed, top notch quickness, top notch hands, but what separated him from really good receivers was his unearthly control over those small, fine movements a receiver must make while going full speed. I could not stop seeing that once he pointed it out to me. 

 

That is, when Watkins was playing and healthy (enough).

An NFL friend sent me a cutup of Sammy's college career a couple months before we drafted him and he made me promise to only look at his feet the first time I watched it. Having lived in ACC country at the time, I had watched him every week since his freshman year and thought I had an appreciation for him as a receiver. But his feet blew me away. Your friend was on to something. 

Still don't agree. I just don't see it. It's not something you can really prove or disprove because of how vague "star talent" is. Based on my opinion of what star talent is and what I think Sammy Watkins has in him, I don't see it.

I also disagree with that no front office members in the entire league would agree, but I know K-9 was just being hyperbolic.

 

He's not in the class of Julio Jones, Antonio Brown, AJ Green, Odell Beckham and DeAndre Hopkins. He's in the group behind that is very good but not star material.

No, I wasn't. As close to a consensus as one can have by the community coming out of college. A tad below Elway/Luck grades when coming out. I know personally he was at the top of several boards, even above Clowney. And I know for a fact the Jags would have snapped him up if their Gabbert failure didn't dictate the need to select Bortles. 

 

Look, I get that it's disappointing he's not playing. But his only issues have been health issues. He was the number one prospect at the position and by a wide margin coming out. I wish he had the QBs throwing to that list you made above, too. 

[Samson's Flow]

An NFL friend sent me a cutup of Sammy's college career a couple months before we drafted him and he made me promise to only look at his feet the first time I watched it. Having lived in ACC country at the time, I had watched him every week since his freshman year and thought I had an appreciation for him as a receiver. But his feet blew me away. Your friend was on to something. 

there's a reason guys like Antonio Brown, despite being no bigger or faster than any other NFL receiver, is uncover-able while some combine all-stars can't make it at all. There's a lot of subtle talent in maintaining speed in breaks, running correct routes and being elusive with footwork that isn't easily measured.  

[ubkev]

He's no Eric Moulds.

[That Aud Smell]

Look, I get that it's disappointing he's not playing. But his only issues have been health issues. He was the number one prospect at the position and by a wide margin coming out. I wish he had the QBs throwing to that list you made above, too.

 

Maybe if he had Tannehill as a QB.

 

 

there's a reason guys like Antonio Brown, despite being no bigger or faster than any other NFL receiver, is uncover-able while some combine all-stars can't make it at all. There's a lot of subtle talent in maintaining speed in breaks, running correct routes and being elusive with footwork that isn't easily measured.  

 

yup. when you get to those super elite levels, the difference between a very good guy and an elite guy are often based on very small things. but things that are extremely hard to do, nonetheless.

[Hoss]

No, I wasn't. As close to a consensus as one can have by the community coming out of college. A tad below Elway/Luck grades when coming out. I know personally he was at the top of several boards, even above Clowney. And I know for a fact the Jags would have snapped him up if their Gabbert failure didn't dictate the need to select Bortles. 

 

Look, I get that it's disappointing he's not playing. But his only issues have been health issues. He was the number one prospect at the position and by a wide margin coming out. I wish he had the QBs throwing to that list you made above, too. 

You wish Brock Oswiler throwing him the ball? :p

Allen Robinson has performed like a star with the much hated Blake Bortles throwing him the ball.

 

I agree QB is a big problem. And my thoughts aren't entirely based on his lack of availability which certainly makes it impossible to call him a star. He's just not the WR you want when you give up two firsts and a fourth or when you draft fourth overall. He's a step behind those players talent wise.

[Samson's Flow]

You wish Brock Oswiler throwing him the ball? :P

Allen Robinson has performed like a star with the much hated Blake Bortles throwing him the ball.

 

I agree QB is a big problem. And my thoughts aren't entirely based on his lack of availability which certainly makes it impossible to call him a star. He's just not the WR you want when you give up two firsts and a fourth or when you draft fourth overall. He's a step behind those players talent wise.

Allen Robinson routinely gets 15 targets a game. I think that is the only difference between him and Sammy Watkins (when healthy).

[K-9]

You wish Brock Oswiler throwing him the ball? :P

Allen Robinson has performed like a star with the much hated Blake Bortles throwing him the ball.

 

I agree QB is a big problem. And my thoughts aren't entirely based on his lack of availability which certainly makes it impossible to call him a star. He's just not the WR you want when you give up two firsts and a fourth or when you draft fourth overall. He's a step behind those players talent wise.

We will agree to disagree. 

 

But I'll ask you to imagine if Jones, Brown, Green, Beckham Jr, and Hopkins are amassing the same numbers if they've been playing in Buffalo. 

[Hoss]

Allen Robinson routinely gets 15 targets a game. I think that is the only difference between him and Sammy Watkins (when healthy).

Allen Robinson has got 15 targets twice in his career.

[K-9]

there's a reason guys like Antonio Brown, despite being no bigger or faster than any other NFL receiver, is uncover-able while some combine all-stars can't make it at all. There's a lot of subtle talent in maintaining speed in breaks, running correct routes and being elusive with footwork that isn't easily measured.  

Based on in depth film review, I'd say Watkins is every bit as uncover-able as Antonio Brown. Even in spite of his health issues. 

 

But it's uncanny how many of Brown's big yardage plays come off of Big Ben's ability to extend a play. Christ, even Perry Tuttle was hard to cover for five seconds or more. 

[TrueBlueGED]

He's no Eric Moulds.

Correct. He's quite a bit more talented than Moulds.