Tank 3.0

[nfreeman]

No.  I think judicious leverage of assets isn't tanking its...judicious use of assets.  McGinn could be a trade and sign situation as well. Send him to a playoff contender with the wink wink nudge nudge that we would like to talk to you in the offseason.  McGinn gets a playoff taste and we could resign him if he is so inclined.  Assuming Lehner is healthy, dumping CJ would clear the decks for an extensive workload and evaluation for him.  I would send Linus to the A to play every night and bring up someone else.  I would do this regardless of where we are in the standings at the deadline.  And no I don't call this tanking.  I call it management.  

It's just the opposite of the Darcy style. 

 

It also means we should never have to do a full blown honest to goodness tank to keep good assets coming in.

 

But what if the Sabres are within 2-3 points of a playoff spot, and CJ continues to play well and Lehner is spotty?  The goalie moves you are suggesting would essentially torpedo their shot at the playoffs.  Is that your preferred outcome? 

[That Aud Smell]

Out of curiosity, if Moulson is bought out when will his contract come off of the books?

 

 

buying him out would save 2mil/yr against the cap...

 

http://www.generalfanager.com/buyouts/321

 

and by the calculations above, he'd cost ~$3M against the cap for a few years, then cost ~$4M for one year, and then ~$1M for four years before coming off the books in 2023.

 

:o

Edited December 22, 2015 by That Aud Smell

[Stoner]

Aren't the Sabres essentially married to Moulson for the short term, because of the Eichel billeting situation?

[That Aud Smell]

Aren't the Sabres essentially married to Moulson for the short term, because of the Eichel billeting situation?

 

I think this is right.

Btw, I fricking LOVE the term billet in connection with hockey.

 

So British via the British heritage of Canada.

[Hoss]

Aren't the Sabres essentially married to Moulson for the short term, because of the Eichel billeting situation?

I think Jack has some spare change to make a move out on his own. Or even buy Moulson's house from him. I don't think it'd be a major deterrent.

[woods-racer]

But what if the Sabres are within 2-3 points of a playoff spot, and CJ continues to play well and Lehner is spotty?  The goalie moves you are suggesting would essentially torpedo their shot at the playoffs.  Is that your preferred outcome? 

 

 But there are always other circumstances that play into it other that 2-3 points out, and the play of a single player. 

 

This year scenarios...

 

The Sabres are 2-3 points out, but have been winning games they shouldn't be and are surely due to return to a *normal* win percentage. 

 

An injury to a core player a week before the trade deadline.

 

There are 3 teams ahead of us and 1 one point behind all trying for that Eight seed. 2 of the teams had injuries early in the season and are really making some noise after the all star break.

 

These scenarios say sell at deadline and get good return.

 

When not to sell.

 

When the Sabres are 2-3 points back with the next closest team 5-6 points back.

 

The Kane Eichel line looks like it really starting to click 2 weeks before the trade deadline.

 

We've been losing  games on puck luck, and it's due to turn in our favor. You can feel the run coming on.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Woods-Racer

[Stoner]

I think this is right.

Btw, I fricking LOVE the term billet in connection with hockey.

 

So British via the British heritage of Canada.

You must have loved Kevin.

[That Aud Smell]

I think Jack has some spare change to make a move out on his own. Or even buy Moulson's house from him. I don't think it'd be a major deterrent.

 

I don't think money's got anything to do with why Eichel is living with the Moulson family. And I think that mentoring relationship is a significant consideration.

 

You must have loved Kevin.

 

:huh:

Edited December 22, 2015 by That Aud Smell

[Taro T]

Out of curiosity, if Moulson is bought out when will his contract come off of the books?

Out of curiosity, if Moulson is bought out when will his contract come off of the books?

If he's bought out this off-season, his 3 remaining years stay on the books for 6 more years (through '22). Keeping him through next season costs more money in actual (& cap) $'s over the full deal because he gets all of next year's $ rather than just 2/3's of it. BUT that nets 1 less year of him being on the books (1 + 2*2 vs 0 + 3*2) as he only counts through '21 in that scenario.

 

I'd be surprised if he's bought out this year. I'd actually be more inclined to expect him to be traded to a low salary team after next year along w/ a 6th or 7th & retaining a portion of his salary which gets him off the books after '19. (Assumes his contract isn't NT/NM, if it is, nevermind. Even if he does have 1 of those clauses, don't see him dropped this off-season.)

[North Buffalo]

Regardless of the other scenarios I say keep McGinn, he is everything we hoped Foligno was hoped he would be but hasnt quite lived up to excepbin flashes. Gionta I think is first to go or become a coach... Matty Mo is a difficult one because of cost and age, CJ is a definite tradeable asset along with Ennis, suppose Foligno and Legwand could be part of a package. If Sabres bring up some of the young guns toward the end of the season... to me that means moves are imminent or at least ready to go draft day. Still need tobeither move yp for another 1st round possible later round D, seems like a lot of them in this year's draft. While going for a scorer with first option. If nothing else it should be interesting to see if any of last years draft make enough strides on other teams to interest GMTM.

Edited December 22, 2015 by North Buffalo

[3putt]

But what if the Sabres are within 2-3 points of a playoff spot, and CJ continues to play well and Lehner is spotty?  The goalie moves you are suggesting would essentially torpedo their shot at the playoffs.  Is that your preferred outcome? 

Same.  Unless you believe you have the horses to finish the race, keep acquiring horses.  I do not think this is the year.  I don't think CJ is the future.  I keep working until I have that resolved.  We need 1 maybe 2 scoring  wingers and another LHD.  I never thought and still do not think we are a playoff team.  But that is jmho.  

[jad1]

I can't see Murray trading productive players for draft picks. I just don't see him looking to get younger in that way. He might try to move him as a package for a younger productive player like he did for Kane, but there's no way he's going to trade an effective McGinn for 2nd round pick.

 

If Gionta or Moulson are still dragging along and somehow generate interest at the deadline, he could let one of those guys go for a 6th rounder.

[woods-racer]

I can't see Murray trading productive players for draft picks. I just don't see him looking to get younger in that way. He might try to move him as a package for a younger productive player like he did for Kane, but there's no way he's going to trade an effective McGinn for 2nd round pick.

 

If Gionta or Moulson are still dragging along and somehow generate interest at the deadline, he could let one of those guys go for a 6th rounder.

 

But what if it's Johnson? A UFA at the end of the season. Projected as a backup. 

[bcsaberks]

Aren't the Sabres essentially married to Moulson for the short term, because of the Eichel billeting situation?

Right.  Awkward. What do they talk about on the drive home? "here's how you SLUMP, son."  If Moulson ever comes out of it (which I see no signs off happening) it could be a great experience for Eichel.  "perseverance" "pro grind" blah blah blah.  If he doesn't.....[insert buffalo misery here].    

[dudacek]

My 2 cents is that GMTM and everyone else would prefer making the playoffs over missing them.

 

Interesting point on McGinn.  There is a reasonable possibility that the Sabres will be on the bubble (maybe 3-4 points out of the playoffs) as we approach the trade deadline, and McGinn will have played most of the year with ROR and Reino and be on pace for close to 20 goals and a ton of hits.  That's the kind of player that the GM of a playoff team trades, say, a 2nd-round pick for, or even a low first if he gets back, say, McGinn and a #3.  What would GMTM do in that scenario?  Take the trade return and weaken his team down the stretch?  Or keep McGinn and try to make the playoffs?

 

  

But what if the Sabres are within 2-3 points of a playoff spot, and CJ continues to play well and Lehner is spotty?  The goalie moves you are suggesting would essentially torpedo their shot at the playoffs.  Is that your preferred outcome?

 

You make the trade that benefits the team best two years down the road. We aren't tanking but we are still building.

Trade or no trade, I will be surprised if McGinn isn't a Sabre next year. I don't expect it, but I wont be surprised if Johnson is back, but I will be shocked if he is back as a number one.

[nfreeman]

  

You make the trade that benefits the team best two years down the road. We aren't tanking but we are still building.

Trade or no trade, I will be surprised if McGinn isn't a Sabre next year. I don't expect it, but I wont be surprised if Johnson is back, but I will be shocked if he is back as a number one.

 

I generally agree, but what benefits the team most 2 years from now?  The low 2nd-rounder (at best) they get for CJ, or maybe making the playoffs this year and setting a new baseline for acceptable performance by the team?  I think it's the latter.

[Eleven]

I generally agree, but what benefits the team most 2 years from now?  The low 2nd-rounder (at best) they get for CJ, or maybe making the playoffs this year and setting a new baseline for acceptable performance by the team?  I think it's the latter.

 

I agree w you.

[dudacek]

I generally agree, but what benefits the team most 2 years from now?  The low 2nd-rounder (at best) they get for CJ, or maybe making the playoffs this year and setting a new baseline for acceptable performance by the team?  I think it's the latter.

Yep. I guess it depends on the offer.

36th pick and we are 6 points out? Make the trade.

63rd and we are two points out? No way.

 

You can't understand the value of making the playoffs to the overall team development.

[LTS]

The way I see McGinn is that he'll pull a decent trade offer and Murray will move him and try to bring him back next season.  The way they are playing McGinn right now looks to me as they are driving up his value for the trade deadline. In addition, by giving him a good shot at a long playoff run it would build some good will between the Sabres and McGinn.  No guarantees he's coming back but there's no guarantees anyway. I think they do this only if they are not in a playoff position at the trade deadline. (even if they are 1 point out they move him as I suspect they get a good deal for him). I know others will disagree on the value of the playoffs. 

 

The same is true for Legwand and Johnson.  The Sabres goaltending future right now is all Swedish.

 

Moulson will be around for awhile. I don't think they are going to drop him. He's got a role to fill and while it's a lot of money he isn't an AHL plug which is what they would have to have in his position if they didn't bring him back. He can take Gionta's spot in 2 years.  

[nfreeman]

Yep. I guess it depends on the offer.

36th pick and we are 6 points out? Make the trade.

63rd and we are two points out? No way.

 

You can't understand the value of making the playoffs to the overall team development.

 

While I'm sure there are many who would agree with this as written, I'm kinda hoping you meant to say "understate."

 

The way I see McGinn is that he'll pull a decent trade offer and Murray will move him and try to bring him back next season.  The way they are playing McGinn right now looks to me as they are driving up his value for the trade deadline. In addition, by giving him a good shot at a long playoff run it would build some good will between the Sabres and McGinn.  No guarantees he's coming back but there's no guarantees anyway. I think they do this only if they are not in a playoff position at the trade deadline. (even if they are 1 point out they move him as I suspect they get a good deal for him). I know others will disagree on the value of the playoffs. 

 

The same is true for Legwand and Johnson.  The Sabres goaltending future right now is all Swedish.

 

Moulson will be around for awhile. I don't think they are going to drop him. He's got a role to fill and while it's a lot of money he isn't an AHL plug which is what they would have to have in his position if they didn't bring him back. He can take Gionta's spot in 2 years.  

 

I don't think anyone is going to give them anything for Legwand.  And while we've been discussing CJ, I kinda doubt there will be much demand for him either, unless a contender is stricken with an injury to its goalie.

 

As for Moulson, I don't think anyone is going to trade for him due to his contract, but I do think he'll be bought out after this season unless he has a really good 2nd half.

[3putt]

While I'm sure there are many who would agree with this as written, I'm kinda hoping you meant to say "understate."

 

 

I don't think anyone is going to give them anything for Legwand.  And while we've been discussing CJ, I kinda doubt there will be much demand for him either, unless a contender is stricken with an injury to its goalie.

 

As for Moulson, I don't think anyone is going to trade for him due to his contract, but I do think he'll be bought out after this season unless he has a really good 2nd half.

And I think this is the difference between a tear down and evaluating a trade.  GMTM won't give away a roster player to rid himself of a contract, but he will listen to all offers.  I think we traded players last year i.e. Flynn, just to clear the roster.  That is unlikely to happen this year.  Again, JMHO.

[dudacek]

While I'm sure there are many who would agree with this as written, I'm kinda hoping you meant to say "understate."

 

 

As for Moulson, I don't think anyone is going to trade for him due to his contract, but I do think he'll be bought out after this season unless he has a really good 2nd half.

Understate. Understood?

 

Moulson would garner decent interest at the deadline if he was a pending UFA. With that contract and his production, he's practically untradeable.

 

Don't see how a buyout benefits us much this offseason. Rather give him a shot next year at finding his game before taking that step.

[nfreeman]

Understate. Understood?

 

Moulson would garner decent interest at the deadline if he was a pending UFA. With that contract and his production, he's practically untradeable.

 

Don't see how a buyout benefits us much this offseason. Rather give him a shot next year at finding his game before taking that step.

 

I think the benefit lies, as in the Hodgson situation, in making it clear to everyone in the organization that poor performance is not acceptable.

[LTS]

I think the benefit lies, as in the Hodgson situation, in making it clear to everyone in the organization that poor performance is not acceptable.

 

But is he really performing poorly?  I think he can do better but he still remains one of the best +/- on the team and he's tied for 6th in scoring behind people you expect him to be behind (well, not McGinn so much).  All the while he's not been playing in the top 6.  I get his contract number, but he's reliable.

 

I don't think he's as bad as people make him out to be and given his ability to be better I think there's less of a chance he's gone next year.

[Hoss]

But is he really performing poorly?  I think he can do better but he still remains one of the best +/- on the team and he's tied for 6th in scoring behind people you expect him to be behind (well, not McGinn so much).  All the while he's not been playing in the top 6.  I get his contract number, but he's reliable.

 

I don't think he's as bad as people make him out to be and given his ability to be better I think there's less of a chance he's gone next year.

It's all about expectations. He SHOULD be performing better and in our top six... But he isn't. And that's not necessarily fine, but it certainly doesn't warrant a buyout. Especially when I'm sure some team out there would give us something for him.