Sabres Calder Trophy

[WildCard]

So, things are starting to get interesting with our 2 #2's. I think we can all agree on who will have the better overall career, though there will no doubt be some distention there, but what does everyone think of our own, Sabres Calder race? It's much closer than many of us would have guessed

[dudacek]

No love for Timmy Schaller?

[WildCard]

No love for Timmy Schaller?

Matt Ellis 2.0?

[Huckleberry]

Samson for me, showing a bit more hockey IQ at the moment.

[inkman]

Matt Ellis 2.0?

I really need that dudes name erased from history

[North Buffalo]

Initial out of the boxbecause of scoring Eichel or should OReilly be considered a Rookie with the Sabres... nah just messin with those tight wads.... but Sam's overall game and now scoring is clearly ahead.

[Hoss]

You're overthinking it. It's Eichel.

[Norcal]

Not ready to call it yet but Samson is showing he is 1b to Eichels 1a atleast so far, both are gonna contribute to multiple cup runs someday.

[LGR4GM]

You're overthinking it. It's Eichel.

Why?

[Hoss]

Why?

It's a pretty simple answer: he's been the best rookie. More points than any other and his dominance at times is unmatched by any of the others. This isn't even a debate. But I like the thread as an opportunity to hear some evaluations of Reinhart and McCabe.

[LGR4GM]

It's a pretty simple answer: he's been the best rookie. More points than any other and his dominance at times is unmatched by any of the others. This isn't even a debate. But I like the thread as an opportunity to hear some evaluations of Reinhart and McCabe.

He has the most points and has also played some extremely inconsistent hockey. Reinhart's defensive game is superior to Eichel's at this point.  I see Eichel be dominant for one shift or 1 play and then vanish for several more shifts.

[Hoss]

He has the most points and has also played some extremely inconsistent hockey. Reinhart's defensive game is superior to Eichel's at this point.  I see Eichel be dominant for one shift or 1 play and then vanish for several more shifts.

I wouldn't call it "extremely" inconsistent. He's been normally inconsistent for a player his age and on a team that doesn't offer him the talent around him he should have. Eichel never vanishes. He makes mistakes and can carry the puck a bit too much at times, but he doesn't vanish.

 

Eichel's game hasn't jumped the way it seemed it would after his early-season success, but I think you're pretty far off here. It's one of those things where the easy evaluation is probably the right one.

[JujuFish]

I'm with Hoss on this. That said, I love Reinhart's progress this season.

[Hoss]

You also can't ignore the roles. Reinhart has been up and down the lineup but has settled in on the wing. His offensive play has gotten much better since he started playing on Eichel and O'Reilly's wing which leads me to believe he's benefiting from their play more than they are benefiting from him.

 

Eichel has been the second-line center all season and is the one pushing play. Being asked to take faceoffs all over the ice and making plays for others. He'd have double-digit assists if players could make a play when he sets them up.

[LGR4GM]

I wouldn't call it "extremely" inconsistent. He's been normally inconsistent for a player his age and on a team that doesn't offer him the talent around him he should have. Eichel never vanishes. He makes mistakes and can carry the puck a bit too much at times, but he doesn't vanish.

 

Eichel's game hasn't jumped the way it seemed it would after his early-season success, but I think you're pretty far off here. It's one of those things where the easy evaluation is probably the right one.

I don't think I am off at all.  He's inconsistent. He's played with talent. He's played more NHL minutes than Reinhart by approx 100. Eichel vanishes, he doesn't always engage in the offensive when and where he should. I think this is him trying to make sure he can make it back on defense.  I am not worried about Jack Eichel becoming a great NHL at all but right now Sam Reinhart's game is more refined and I would argue he is currently the better all around rookie player for Buffalo.

You also can't ignore the roles. Reinhart has been up and down the lineup but has settled in on the wing. His offensive play has gotten much better since he started playing on Eichel and O'Reilly's wing which leads me to believe he's benefiting from their play more than they are benefiting from him.

 

Eichel has been the second-line center all season and is the one pushing play. Being asked to take faceoffs all over the ice and making plays for others. He'd have double-digit assists if players could make a play when he sets them up.

Sam has bounced because he has earned more and more ice time and more responsibility.  Eichel has been saddled with Kane for most of the season and they both push the offense. Most of Jack goals are him doing it himself which is great but again Sam is meshing better thus far.  Jack and Sam play different games but they are very close so far this season.

[Hoss]

Sam has bounced because he has earned more and more ice time and more responsibility.  Eichel has been saddled with Kane for most of the season and they both push the offense. Most of Jack goals are him doing it himself which is great but again Sam is meshing better thus far.  Jack and Sam play different games but they are very close so far this season.

Evander has played 14 of 24 games and not all have been with Jack. Jack has been put in a position on the second line and told to make it happen himself. He hasn't been knocked down to the bottom six at times to get his game going. I'm not trying to say anything bad about Reinhart, but the Sabres Calder so far is Eichel. Going forward it will also be EIchel. The NHL Calder might end up being Eichel if he turns it up soon.

[LGR4GM]

Evander has played 14 of 24 games and not all have been with Jack. Jack has been put in a position on the second line and told to make it happen himself. He hasn't been knocked down to the bottom six at times to get his game going. I'm not trying to say anything bad about Reinhart, but the Sabres Calder so far is Eichel. Going forward it will also be EIchel. The NHL Calder might end up being Eichel if he turns it up soon.

You act like our 2nd line is just Jack Eichel and I fully disagree with this. Jack has played with talent.

 

Also you are sticking your fingers in your ears and going "la la la la can't here you" if you think that "going forward it will also be Eichel".  Sure it could be and I might expect it too but what if Reinhart continues to score goals? What if he outscores and outplays Eichel?  Is Eichel still better because he is more talented?  I don't care how you look at things thus far but Eichel has fallen off in the last 2 weeks while Reinhart has surged.  The race isn't over until the fat lady sings and we have 3/4 of season to see how it plays out.

[Hoss]

You act like our 2nd line is just Jack Eichel and I fully disagree with this. Jack has played with talent.

 

Also you are sticking your fingers in your ears and going "la la la la can't here you" if you think that "going forward it will also be Eichel".  Sure it could be and I might expect it too but what if Reinhart continues to score goals? What if he outscores and outplays Eichel?  Is Eichel still better because he is more talented?  I don't care how you look at things thus far but Eichel has fallen off in the last 2 weeks while Reinhart has surged.  The race isn't over until the fat lady sings and we have 3/4 of season to see how it plays out.

I haven't said the race is over. I believe it will be Eichel going forward as I believe it is now. I'm not sticking my fingers in my ears on anything. I believe it will be Eichel. Sorry for disagreeing with you.

If Samson outscores and outplays Eichel then it will be Samson, obviously.

[LGR4GM]

I haven't said the race is over. I believe it will be Eichel going forward as I believe it is now. I'm not sticking my fingers in my ears on anything. I believe it will be Eichel. Sorry for disagreeing with you.

If Samson outscores and outplays Eichel then it will be Samson, obviously.

You are acting like the race is over.  "but the Sabres Calder so far is Eichel. Going forward it will also be EIchel. The NHL Calder might end up being Eichel if he turns it up soon."

 

That is a very "race is over" statement.  All I am saying is this summer jack had some floating and not engaging issues, which we discussed. They are still there.  If he starts engaging consistently then I think he will quickly separate himself from Reinhart, until then we shall wait and see.

[Hoss]

You are acting like the race is over.  "but the Sabres Calder so far is Eichel. Going forward it will also be EIchel. The NHL Calder might end up being Eichel if he turns it up soon."

 

That is a very "race is over" statement.  All I am saying is this summer jack had some floating and not engaging issues, which we discussed. They are still there.  If he starts engaging consistently then I think he will quickly separate himself from Reinhart, until then we shall wait and see.

No, that's me stating my opinion. It is going to be Eichel. That is my opinion.

 

Agree to disagree and move on.

[dudacek]

Eichel has scored the prettiest goals and made the most eye-catching plays of any Sabre this year.

He is the most talented player we have had since Alex Mogilny and will be a star.

 

Those flashes of talent have blinded people to the fact he's Only sporadically effective on a shift to shift basis.

He's consistently been shielded by OReilly, gets a ton of prime ice time with good wingers and has rarely made any teammate look better. He doesn't use his speed and strength enough to engage defensively or win puck battles, and he turns the puck over frequently.

 

I'm not sure if he is mentally ready yet for the pace of the NHl, but he is so physically superior he can still make an impact.

When his brain catches up (the same way we have recently been seeing SAm's catch up) he will be scary.

[LGR4GM]

Eichel has scored the prettiest goals and made the most eye-catching plays of any Sabre this year.

He is the most talented player we have had since Alex Mogilny and will be a star.

 

Those flashes of talent have blinded people to the fact he's Only sporadically effective on a shift to shift basis.

He's consistently been shielded by OReilly, gets a ton of prime ice time with good wingers and has rarely made any teammate look better. He doesn't use his speed and strength enough to engage defensively or win puck battles, and he turns the puck over frequently.

 

I'm not sure if he is mentally ready yet for the pace of the NHl, but he is so physically superior he can still make an impact.

When his brain catches up (the same way we have recently been seeing SAm's catch up) he will be scary.

Agreed. +1

[nfreeman]

FWIW, there have been a few games, and a number of periods, in which Eichel has been the best player on the ice. Can't say that about Reinhart.

[Doohicksie]

FWIW, there have been a few games, and a number of periods, in which Eichel has been the best player on the ice. Can't say that about Reinhart.

 

But with the peaks there are a lot of valleys.  Reinhart is more consistent shift in, shift out.

It'll be interesting to revisit this in another 20 games.

[WildCard]

Eichel has scored the prettiest goals and made the most eye-catching plays of any Sabre this year.

He is the most talented player we have had since Alex Mogilny and will be a star.

 

Those flashes of talent have blinded people to the fact he's Only sporadically effective on a shift to shift basis.

He's consistently been shielded by OReilly, gets a ton of prime ice time with good wingers and has rarely made any teammate look better. He doesn't use his speed and strength enough to engage defensively or win puck battles, and he turns the puck over frequently.

 

I'm not sure if he is mentally ready yet for the pace of the NHl, but he is so physically superior he can still make an impact.

When his brain catches up (the same way we have recently been seeing SAm's catch up) he will be scary.

 I disagree; I think he does indeed use his speed and strength to win puck battles. He's very good on the back check and in the neutral zone, much better than Reinhart by a mile IMO. Yes, he turns the puck over more frequently than Reinhart, and I would also agree that Reinhart is better in his own zone and that Reinhart is better along the boards (who would've thought that?) and in front of the net. In short, he's more refined, as Liger puts it.

 

Yet I disagree with Liger in the roles they play. Hoss is right, IMO, we can't just ignore the minutes and situations Eichel gets put in compared to Reinhart. He centers the 2nd line, he doesn't get to play with ROR, he does all the offense on his line. Vanishing acts? How about Reinhart without ROR. 

 

Corsi Relative to Quality of Teammates, Eichel #1, Samson #2

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_statistics.php?ds=29&s=15&f1=2015_s&f2=5v5&f4=C+LW+RW&f5=BUF&c=0+3+4+6+7+8+29+30+31+13+14+15+16+11+12+34+32+33+35+36+17+18+19+20+21+22+25+26+27+28+10+37+38+39+40+47+48+49+50+51+52+53+54+55+56+63+67+57+58+59+60+61+62+64+65+66+41+42+43+44+45+46#

 

Corsi Relative to Quality of Competition, Eichel #8, Samson #10

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_statistics.php?ds=29&s=13&f1=2015_s&f2=5v5&f4=C+LW+RW&f5=BUF&c=0+3+4+6+7+8+29+30+31+13+14+15+16+11+12+34+32+33+35+36+17+18+19+20+21+22+25+26+27+28+10+37+38+39+40+47+48+49+50+51+52+53+54+55+56+63+67+57+58+59+60+61+62+64+65+66+41+42+43+44+45+46#

 

Put ROR on Eichel's wing and see how that goes. Dude would have 8 more assists. 

 

FWIW, there have been a few games, and a number of periods, in which Eichel has been the best player on the ice. Can't say that about Reinhart.

Yeap. And even though we know it's not in Samson's game to be dominate and flashy, I think some think Jack has vanishing acts just because he isn't as dominate at some times, whereas nobody says that about Reinhart because he is just consistently at the same level