off topic The politics of terrorism

[WildCard]

I don't like quoting long posts but I'm fine having this double posted. I was hoping that this thread would be a break from all the bickering and a chance to just mourn. if only.

Don't attempt to shame our discussion of what's going on by insinuating we don't feel remorse for what happened

[Wyldnwoody44]

I am trying to not let my personal hatred for what I have seen in the ME in my lifetime flood into anything I type into this thread, these people are born and bread to hate Americans and allies of American and we have no chance of even coming close to stopping this short of starting WW3. The military force is so caught up in a struggle between enforcing and Tiptoeing that nothing is getting accomplished and then atrocities like this keep occurring more frequently and with greater damage.

 

Enough is enough

[Hoss]

Also -- France is about to find out what it feels like to have a pacifist, arrogant fool in charge of an important ally when trying to fight a war against radical Islam. I'd call it a fair bit of payback if our necks weren't on the line as well.

This is ridiculous.

[JJFIVEOH]

This is ridiculous.

 

Will you expound on that?

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Not sure if everybody is keeping up on the details, but apparently there were eight perpetrators. They were all suicide bombers, seven of them "succeeded" the eighth was shot by police and the bomb went off as he fell to the ground.

Edited November 14, 2015 by JJFIVEOH

[Taro T]

10 minutes into Nightline and they are finally getting into talking about who did it. (Though in fairness, there was a single mention of Allahu Akbar (sp?) and Syria during those 10 minutes.) And they follow that up w/ a random "decadent Western culture" just before breaking to a Chantix commercial.

 

Where did you go Ted Koppel? A tired nation turns it's bloodshot eyes to you. Whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Taro T

[...]

Let's make sure we remember, that almost ALL of these issues we are facing today were caused by the Allies actions after WWI. France is reaping the fruit of seeds they first sowed in Syria in 1920. Just like they reaped the fruits of seeds they sowed in Germany at that same time. WWI was the most disastrous conflict of all time if you consider all of the future death and destruction it's end caused. The Allies behaved terribly at the peace table and it's been biting them in various way almost ever since.

I will grant you the general theme of this post; the Allies definitely were short-sited coming out of WWI and those European nations had zero respect for the history of the ME when they went meddling in there following the war.

 

That theme carried over to WWII as well.

[SwampD]

Oof. So much to say in this one, but I think it's just best to walk away.

[Taro T]

May God have mercy on the souls of the victims. And may the 8 (at last count) that killed them be buried in suits of bacon. ####ing scum.

[JJFIVEOH]

It's really unfortunate that we, as adults, can't get more people involved in a controversial topic simply because of fear that words might be taken the wrong way. It seems as though it's usually just a small handful of posters that partake and even then some get offended and take it personally. How can we expect our politicians to deal with these issues when we can't even talk about them?

 

Swamp, this wasn't at all directed at you. Just an observation.

[bunomatic]

We gave the Jews Israel after WWII.  After that, we fundamentally left the ME alone.  We may have provided support for Israel, we may have meddled in Iranian politics, we may have sat by while various ME scrums played out, and we may have propped up Saddam Hussein.  But no big weaponry until the Gulf War as far as I recall. 

 

Our problem is that we're the mecca for apostates, and, again, we created Israel.  And, of course, they could point to all of the tinkering we had done in the region. 

 

But, I don't see why you asked the question.

 well the U.N.( of which the U.S. was a member ) gave palestine to the jews. It was held by the British since the breakup of the Ottoman empire until that time. The Brits wrote the Balfour mandate ( sometime pre 1920 i think ) which was a plan to hand over the land to the Jewish people. Most say Britain gave the land since they technically held it until the handover. Also you did have a massive military presence in the middle east in the kingdom of Oman before the gulf war. But technically you didn't create Israel. Had a hand in sure.

[SabresBillsFan]

And then the US wants to bring over 100,000 Syrian refugees into this country. Are u £ucking kidding me. No way in hell should we bring any of these people over. But this just goes to show you how retarded our politicians are. You don't think IS will have people in those refugee groups???

[deluca67]

And then the US wants to bring over 100,000 Syrian refugees into this country. Are u £ucking kidding me. No way in hell should we bring any of these people over. But this just goes to show you how retarded our politicians are. You don't think IS will have people in those refugee groups???

We need to help those 100's of thousands of men, women children trying to escape the violence. I'm sorry, your post is the exact type of reaction that terrorists are hoping for.  

[North Buffalo]

We need to help those 100's of thousands of men, women children trying to escape the violence. I'm sorry, your post is the exact type of reaction that terrorists are hoping for.

 

I understand your feeling, and initially agree, but infiltration is a problem with sleeper cells. At this point I am not sure of the answer??

More inclined to shut the door rather then be welcoming unless something more can be done on background checks and monitoring into future, but that would be violation of civil rights.

[Kristian]

We need to help those 100's of thousands of men, women children trying to escape the violence. I'm sorry, your post is the exact type of reaction that terrorists are hoping for.  

More than 70% of the refugee stream coming to Scandinavia these days, are young men - Not many women and children amongst them, even though the media like to pain a different picture.

 

Also, again more than half of these people are not Syrians. Syrian passports are a hot commodity on the black market, after Merkel announced that all Syrians would be granted asylum in Germany. A lot of these people don't speak arabic, so how can they be Syrians?

 

Just saying, things are by no means black and white, in this case.

[wjag]

With the morning and a chance to think about what happened in France last night, these are my thoughts

 

1.  France is now dragged into something a lot bigger than France.  It has been a long time since they have been involved militarily into something that will bring countless dead home in coffins.

 

2.  The way of life in France for everyone is now permanently altered.

 

3.  I would not want to be a member of any Arab ethnicity in Europe today..  Blow back, especially on innocents is going to be harsh

 

4.   France is just the most recent example of the notion that you don't need big expensive attacks to promote fear.  All you need is 8 desperate people.

 

5.  ISIS is the product of Barack Obama AND George Bush AND Bill Clinton AND George Bush AND Ronald Reagan AND Jimmy Carter.

 

6.  The US Presidential race just took a turn.  It will be interesting to hear Clinton, Trump, Sanders, Carson, and the others address next steps and reactions

 

7.  Obama is in a heckuva fix now.  Probably not the way he wanted to sail into the sunset.

Edited November 14, 2015 by wjag

[Neo]

To: WJAG - insight.

[X. Benedict]

There is nothing more stopping a black family from getting out of the ghetto than what is stopping a white family from getting out of the ghetto. The only difference is the race-hustlers playing the black folk, and all the black folk have to do is ignore the race-husters. In fact, a black family has access to more tools to elevate their situation than does a white family. And God bless 'em, we owe that to 'em.

Stopped. How ironic.

 

I've been stopped twice in nice neighborhoods for absolutely no reason. And I was just the white passenger.

One cop literally said, "it looked like you drifted across a line, but I see youre okay." And nodded to me. And returned to his car.

This kind of stuff is probably not part of your experience. But I guess it has nothing to do with Paris either.

Edited November 14, 2015 by X. Benedict

[wjag]

[Neo]

Stopped. How ironic.

I've been stopped twice in nice neighborhoods for absolutely no reason. And I was just the white passenger.

One cop literally said, "it looked like you drifted across a line, but I see youre okay." And nodded to me. And returned to his car.

This kind of stuff is probably not part of your experience. But I guess it has nothing to do with Paris either.

I was fortunate enough to do a ride around in a police car for a full shift in Buffalo. I rode the east side in the backseat with two white officers. There is a fascinating dynamic. Many of the impressions, or points, we see on SabreSpace played out.

 

My over-riding impressions are that it's a very tough job, humans see the world through lenses for legitimate reasons, and cops and citizens are good people. Lenses are different for very real reasons. Cops are at risk. Neighborhoods are disadvantaged. Substitute religion for race and the comparisons to Paris can be made. The comparison, in my mind, ends with the extent of barbarism and the assignment of accountability. I understand grievance and the responsibility of both sides to address it. I dont give a pass to barbarians. I don't blame those not aggrieved for responding to aggrieved barbarism forcefully.

 

Now, not blaming those who are not aggrieved (France) for responding forcefully (aircraft carriers) doesn't mean it's smart. It doesn't mean it's dumb, either. The magic policy trick protects your values without trespassing on others. I will think, but I'm not aware of a route protecting the values our President articulated as recently as last night that doesn't offend Islamic extremists. There is an element of the grievance that stems from what the west has done (legitimate) and there is an element of the grievance that stems from what the west is (illigetimate). Extremists don't want us to leave them alone. They want us dead. That's not my assessment. That's their language and action. This conundrum makes the Middle East so intractable. We live in a world of polar opposite views that preceded American oil interests and European imperialism. We can co-exist with different views if we don't insist those with other views convert, die, or go away. My confidence in my own understanding stops here. I don't hate anyone or anything. I can't change my values. The President says my values are our values. I think he's right.

 

These are my thoughts, by the way, and are not meant to imply yours are same or different.

Edited November 14, 2015 by N'eo

[Thwomp!]

Haven't fully caught up yet.  I really did just "unplug" last night.  It had been a long week and the Paris events were just incomprehensibly horrific and tragic.

 

 

For my edification, and with all due respect.

Are those opposed to military action willing to endure the occasional 9/11s, Charlie Hebdos, Paris Concert attacks, etc., until hearts and minds change?

This isn't a web blog based trap question.

I ask not having made a call for, nor having ruled out, the military. Several of you got ahead of me.

 

Neo, those events have all happened under the current approach.  Military action and failed intervention policies are to blame here.  It's not an either/or scenario.  "Military action" is not going to stop those attacks either, but I'm hopeful that "winning over hearts and minds" eventually will.  I know that we've only tried the one way and it hasn't worked.  America will never get this, but to a certain point we also need to "butt out" of other people's business and affairs.  It's not all about us.

 

In my mind, at least "hearts and minds" has a chance for success instead of the perpetual hamster wheel of death and destruction we've been spinning on for quite some time now that hasn't worked.

 

 

East ... I don't like you, I love you ....

... but you said something I hear often and couldn't disagree with more. "It's changing the way WE interact with THEM ... so that ... etc."

There is accountability, tonight, for the deaths of hundreds of Parisian men, woman and children. The accountable parties aren't the dead. I will never understand the self blaming philosophy that gives a pass to murders. Further, the moral equivalency between any arrogant American wrong, today or one hundred fifty years ago, and the beheading of Christians for your viewing pleasure, simply doesn't exist in any world I'm familiar with.


Lastly - This is a night we will all remember forever. I had my television and my iPad. I chose to spend it with all of you because of the respect I have for your views.

 

For lack of a better way to put this, "we" have interacted with "them" in many negative ways.  There are currently negative interactions on both sides, obviously, but they're attacking us how they are able to.  They can't stand up to our military directly.  This is essentially modern guerrilla warfare.  We have caused generations of people in the ME to hate us and want us to suffer and die because we've done the same things to them.  Revenge is a primal human need.  We need to  break the cycle.  Is that likely?  Unfortunately not.

 

And thanks for the love :wub:  As I said in the "Politics" thread, I do enjoy reading your views, even if we disagree much of the time  :wub: 

[X. Benedict]

I was fortunate enough to do a ride around in a police car for a full shift in Buffalo. I rode the east side in the backseat with two white officers. There is a fascinating dynamic

Now, not blaming those who are not aggrieved for responding forcefully (think French aircraft carriers) doesn't mean it's smart. It doesn't mean it's dumb, either. The magic policy trick protects your values without trespassing on others. I will think, but I'm not aware of a route protecting the values our President articulated as recently as last night that doesn't offend Islamic extremists. There is an element of the grievance that stems from what the west has done (legitimate) and there is an element of grievance that stems from

These are my thoughts, by the way, and are not meant to imply yours are same or different.

The goal of terror is not to kill for killings sake, but to polarize by provoking a response.

ISIS wants to create a world where ISIS is the only acceptable form of Islam. And it wants the West to help push Islam to them.

ISIsS doesn't want to push France, they want France to help push moderate Islam to them.

That's the goal, killing concert goers is only a tactic to that end.

 

 

 

 

 

.

Edited November 14, 2015 by X. Benedict

[Thwomp!]

And who kill us? The people or the terrorists? You're both putting words in my mouth..................

 

We need to stop the people from becoming terrorists.

 

 

Why do we need to come up with ways to make them better? Does that make any sense to you, finding ways to stop marginalizing them so they don't kill us?

 

Yes, it makes perfect sense to me.  Give them a purpose and productive role in their society/the world instead of their role being "death to America and its allies"

 

You sign up every time you vote, and watch an episode of The Daily Show.

 

Yep it's all those naive liberals' fault.  The warmongering, interventionist policies America has used for decades is completely innocent of any blame. <_<

[Neo]

*snip* for column inch conservation.

 

To East: "Winning hearts and minds" isn't silly or naive. I don't reference it with snide intent.

 

I just don't see (yet?) that radical Islam wants anything to do with our hearts and minds. When I hear "hearts and minds" I hear cackling laughter. It's not the laughter of US war hawks. It's the laughter of the the extremists.

The goal of terror is not to kill for killings sake, but to polarize by provoking a response.

ISIS wants to create a world where ISIS is the only acceptable form of Islam. And it wants the West to help push Islam to them.

ISIsS doesn't want to push France, they want France to help push moderate Islam to them.

That's the goal, killing concert goers is only a tactic to that end.

.

Important nuance. I agree.

[Thwomp!]

Well, the first step, without which the rest would've been impossible, was killing them in sufficient quantity to make the rest of them realize that they had no chance of winning.

 

And then the rest continue guerrilla warfare anywhere they can against us in revenge.  We can't kill them all.  This is actually where we are at in the current situation. 

 

We need to stop people from feeling the need to join the terrorist groups and let the group die off eventually.  You really do need to kill the "idea", which a gun or bomb can't do.

[GoPre]

We need to stop the people from becoming terrorists.

 

 

Sadly, that is something that cannot be prevented.