off topic The politics of terrorism

[SwampD]

At the current moment, it's one group that's primarily responsible for the misery, so yeah, that one group is getting the blame.

 

Agreed, but what are the leaders of the religion doing about it?  Nothing. 

They are teaching their faith and hope it sticks, so that when a disenfranchised Sunni or Bathist or etc, sees the U.S. pick sides and depose or kill certain leaders in that region while supporting others, they don't turn to hate and violence against us and Europe. Just like religious leaders here who are trying to reduce violence in inner cities (and elsewhere).

[Thwomp!]

Bingo. The big thing we tend to miss with discussions of terrorism is that we focus on the religious aspect without realizing that it really has nothing to do with the motivation of the terrorist groups or individuals. This current brand of Islamic Extremism, while based on Sunni Islam, really has nothing to do with Islam at all. It has a lot more to do with rejection from and of western society.

A lot of people spend time being confused as to why someone born in the US, or someone born in the UK would intentionally leave those places to join an extremist group like ISIS, but it's really not difficult to see what might motivate these people. They're anti-social. They feel that the world they live in has wronged them in some way and they can use hyper-conservative Islam to salve their wounds. 

When you look at the numbers of people who practice Islam, hyper-conservative Islam is a very small group of the overall religious base. And of those hyper-conservatives the extremists are an even smaller group. There are fewer people rallying behind the ISIS flag than showed up for Woodstock, and it's not like getting people into the peace and love movement took a whole lot of effort. We shouldn't be surprised, or impressed

What we have with ISIS is a highly motivated group of antisocial people using their religion for their own personal gain. The interesting part with ISIS is that it's essentially just practicing a more radical extension of existing governments in the ME. It's no secret that Saudi Arabia used Wahhabism to make itself rich from selling oil to the West. ISIS is simply following suit. Groups attempting to topple existing governments over there is a tale as old as time. There's nothing truly unique about ISIS other than that they've also elected to target the West as well. Western money influences their existing governments and they don't like it. They want Western money for themselves. 

I'm honestly only scratching the surface and this comes off as maybe being disjointed, but I think if you're blaming Islam as a whole, you're ignoring everything else that goes into motivating terrorism. 

 

Regarding condemnation by Muslim leaders, I'm not sure who that is being directed at. There are sooooo many different sects of Islam with wide ranging belief systems, some that we don't even know much about. Assad is Alawite (technically Sunni) which is the majority version of Islam in the Syrian govt, but many Sunni Muslims reject the Alawite. Who the hell understands the nuances of that conflict here? I don't. 

The sheer scale and diversity of the Muslim faith makes it very difficult to ask "leaders" to do anything. All it shows is a completely lack of understanding of the historical conflicts of the Muslim world, the nuances of which might as well be rocket science to the average Westerner.

 

Great post. 100% agree.

 

I'm a religious outsider, so I view all religions the same. When you look at it like that you'll see that there are far more similarities than differences between religions and how they operate.

If these wackos were Catholics or Episcopals, they'd be excommunicated freaking instantly.

I don't see fanatics of any persuasion caring about that. Part of their fight is against their own mainstream religion. It would likely be a badge of honor.

[Eleven]

Great post. 100% agree.

 

I'm a religious outsider, so I view all religions the same. When you look at it like that you'll see that there are far more similarities than differences between religions and how they operate.

 

I don't see fanatics of any persuasion caring about that. Part of their fight is against their own mainstream religion. It would likely be a badge of honor.

 

It would certainly hurt recruiting efforts.

[TrueBlueGED]

If these wackos were Catholics or Episcopals, they'd be excommunicated freaking instantly.

 

I realize that murder and molestation aren't exactly equivalent...but given how the Catholic church protected child-abusing priests, I don't think this is necessarily true.

[Eleven]

I realize that murder and molestation aren't exactly equivalent...but given how the Catholic church protected child-abusing priests, I don't think this is necessarily true.

 

Yeah that's pretty disgusting.

[darksabre]

Great post. 100% agree.

 

I'm a religious outsider, so I view all religions the same. When you look at it like that you'll see that there are far more similarities than differences between religions and how they operate.

I am as well. I don't see anything unique about Islam or the people who join its radical offshoots. The only truly unique thing about Islam is its role in government in the ME. It's very entrenched, and the history of government systems in those regions keeps it that way. Might is Right in the middle east, and it's been that way for a long long time. Trying to establish democracies over there is crazy because it means you want to prevent people from having their religions influence their government, which has pretty much never been a thing in the history of the ME. Religion has always played a role in government there. Everyone seeking power in the ME is doing so by some kind of divine right. The only difference now is that these groups are also attacking the Western world in order to establish their divine right. They see attacks on the West as a way to increase their following. Attack the West, knowing that the West will come back with bombs, guns, and racism to make people mad and give you more followers. ISIS driving Syrians out of Syria, flooding the EU with refugees, fueling anti-Muslim sentiment in order to create more people who feel rejected by the West. The easiest way for radical Islam to gain power is by disenfranchising peaceful Muslims. They know this. The question is whether they can succeed. Right now, they are. 

 

Radical Islam isn't even an old thing. It's modern. And it didn't get popular until oil became a commodity. Saudi Arabia used the oil money we gave them to indoctrinate their people into Wahhabism. Our money paid for their schools and their governments. If you want to find a government using its people, find a government ruled by people preaching conservative religion of any kind. And then look for their motivation.

 

The way forward with Islam is to stop looking at Muslims as "other". We need to look past religion and realize that there's something way bigger going on in the ME and it involves their governments and the global economy. Prosperous people inherently become less susceptible to conservative religion. How do we accomplish that?

[Thwomp!]

Another great post. You've obviously studied this. I should, but I can foresee it causing a large amount of anger which I don't need, especially added to all the current storms in my life.

 

The last sentence of the 2nd to last paragraph hit close to home in my mind.

 

Answer to the very last sentence: more socialism!!!! :P

[pastajoe]

Prosperous people inherently become less susceptible to conservative religion. How do we accomplish that?

 

I don't know, Trump, Cruz, and some evangelicals are prosperous but they want to impose conservative religious restrictions in the U.S..

[darksabre]

I don't know, Trump, Cruz, and some evangelicals are prosperous but they want to impose conservative religious restrictions in the U.S..

For their own gain. Remember who is gaining in those situations. It's never the followers.

Another great post. You've obviously studied this. I should, but I can foresee it causing a large amount of anger which I don't need, especially added to all the current ###### storms in my life.

 

The last sentence of the 2nd to last paragraph hit close to home in my mind.

 

Answer to the very last sentence: more socialism!!!! :P

The only thing I know for sure is that I don't know nearly enough about Islam and the middle east to sit here and condemn an entire religion or ethnic group. I've learned that there is a lot to learn. And that what we see in this country, from our fellow citizens all the way up to our leaders, is a refusal to acknowledge our own ignorance and then do better.

[Huckleberry]

Bingo. The big thing we tend to miss with discussions of terrorism is that we focus on the religious aspect without realizing that it really has nothing to do with the motivation of the terrorist groups or individuals. This current brand of Islamic Extremism, while based on Sunni Islam, really has nothing to do with Islam at all. It has a lot more to do with rejection from and of western society.

 

A lot of people spend time being confused as to why someone born in the US, or someone born in the UK would intentionally leave those places to join an extremist group like ISIS, but it's really not difficult to see what might motivate these people. They're anti-social. They feel that the world they live in has wronged them in some way and they can use hyper-conservative Islam to salve their wounds. 

 

When you look at the numbers of people who practice Islam, hyper-conservative Islam is a very small group of the overall religious base. And of those hyper-conservatives the extremists are an even smaller group. There are fewer people rallying behind the ISIS flag than showed up for Woodstock, and it's not like getting people into the peace and love movement took a whole lot of effort. We shouldn't be surprised, or impressed

 

What we have with ISIS is a highly motivated group of antisocial people using their religion for their own personal gain. The interesting part with ISIS is that it's essentially just practicing a more radical extension of existing governments in the ME. It's no secret that Saudi Arabia used Wahhabism to make itself rich from selling oil to the West. ISIS is simply following suit. Groups attempting to topple existing governments over there is a tale as old as time. There's nothing truly unique about ISIS other than that they've also elected to target the West as well. Western money influences their existing governments and they don't like it. They want Western money for themselves. 

 

I'm honestly only scratching the surface and this comes off as maybe being disjointed, but I think if you're blaming Islam as a whole, you're ignoring everything else that goes into motivating terrorism. 

 

Regarding condemnation by Muslim leaders, I'm not sure who that is being directed at. There are sooooo many different sects of Islam with wide ranging belief systems, some that we don't even know much about. Assad is Alawite (technically Sunni) which is the majority version of Islam in the Syrian govt, but many Sunni Muslims reject the Alawite. Who the hell understands the nuances of that conflict here? I don't. 

 

The sheer scale and diversity of the Muslim faith makes it very difficult to ask "leaders" to do anything. All it shows is a completely lack of understanding of the historical conflicts of the Muslim world, the nuances of which might as well be rocket science to the average Westerner. 

 

They rejected western society and both the groups of terrorists from the paris attacks as the one in Brussels are actually all known criminals.  (carjacking, drugs, theft)

They knew they had to go to jail sometime soon and just blew themselves up.      

They went to Syria to commit crimes they couldn't here (rape , murder, .... ), came back to find out they have no place in society here so they went only route they could. 

Also brussels is a special case, there is a huge difference with those who went to flemish schools and those who attended french schools.

When finding work later in life, those who attended flemish schools didn't have any language barriers because like me they had 5hrs of french, since the age of 6.

The french schooling system only gives you 2 hrs of dutch from age 12 wich in turn leads to anyone going there severely limiting their chances of finding work later on.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

I have not read all of the posts, but have up to and including page 26.

 

I must say that many of you get it.

 

Also, I am not surprised by the posts by nfreeman, but I am at many of the posts by 11.  11, I really believe you know better.

 

http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/commonwordcommonlord/2014/08/think-muslims-havent-condemned-isis-think-again.html

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Page 27 is much better with d4rk, Eastside, Pasta and our friend in Brussels (glad you are safe ... I prayed extra long today for you and everyone there) with very good points made.

 

ISIS ... has absolutely nothing to do with Islam.  I really feel that my faith is being hijacked.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Because it has a large Muslim population, and in any population there are those who wish to create chaos.

 

This is a good point.

 

With 1.6 billion Muslims worldwide there are bound to be some crazies.

 

This self appointed caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi is surely insane.  Shameful that he took the name Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him), who was the closest companion of Muhammad (PBUH) and the first caliph after the Prophet died.