off topic The politics of terrorism

[darksabre]

This is an inherently political thread. It's about an act of mass murder carried out by bloodthirsty Muslim lunatics to achieve political ends.

 

SFiNS, it gives me no pleasure to say it, but the pathologies besetting world Islam run far deeper than "a few nutbars."

 

As I've said many times, there is a war going on. Europe is literally being overrun. It has stuck its head in the sand for a generation and is paying the price now -- and it's going to get much worse there before it gets better, if it ever does. And I hope no one here thinks we are immune. They are going to try to attack here too, and they aren't going to stop until they are stopped by force.

World War 3 sounds fun. Where do I sign up?

[Neo]

"The war on terror we fight today is a generational struggle that will continue long after you and I have turned our duties over to others."

 

We'll all be asked to vote. Our adversary will not be accommodated toward any peace where we retain our freedoms. I hope our current generation values freedom, and pays its costs, to the same extent our prior generations have.

[nfreeman]

Can you kill a cause/idea though? You can keep wiping them out all you want, a new organization will just take their place unless you provide stability and domestic leaders to those countries

The Muslims have a saying: "everyone respects the strong horse." In other words, jihad loses much of its appeal when it becomes clear that it will be futile. So while I agree that the long term solution requires strong institutions and the adoption of many classically liberal ideals not found in Muslim societies, we won't get to the long term unless we win the war in the short term.

World War 3 sounds fun. Where do I sign up?

Do you think the scumbags in Paris would have persuaded by glib and pointless humor?

 

The war has already started. If we want to win we need to stop kidding ourselves about that fact.

[WildCard]

Well I'm not sure i agree with why you think it will work nfreeman, I don't know if proving it's futility is the key but rather creating a new generation that is educated without poor influences, but I do agree that you have to create a blank slate to make anything new first. If you're going to do something, do it right the first time. Instead, you get this

Edited November 14, 2015 by WildCard

[WildCard]

There is no futility in a jihad, they aren't tryin to win anything

[JJFIVEOH]

What a horrifying situation.  May we all stand with and offer our heartfelt sympathies to the French during this tragedy.

 

 

How's that whole "force" thing been working for U.S. and the world so far?  I agree with Wildcard above and I think that recent history has shown that force is not the answer to this problem.

 

You're right, we need to sit down and reason with them.

[darksabre]

The Muslims have a saying: "everyone respects the strong horse." In other words, jihad loses much of its appeal when it becomes clear that it will be futile. So while I agree that the long term solution requires strong institutions and the adoption of many classically liberal ideals not found in Muslim societies, we won't get to the long term unless we win the war in the short term.

 

Do you think the scumbags in Paris would have persuaded by glib and pointless humor?

 

The war has already started. If we want to win we need to stop kidding ourselves about that fact.

You're kidding yourself if you think this is something that can be solved by "winning the war in the short term".

 

News flash Freeman, there ain't no short term war on radical Islam. It could take hundreds of years. A military solution will take nothing short of full western occupation of middle eastern states. It will take ideological cleansing. And lots and lots of time. And hundreds of thousands of western lives.

 

Sh*t, it's been 150 years since slavery was abolished in America and we still can't get white people to stop being to black people. And you think a little short term war is going to do anything against radical Islam? I want some of what you're drinking.

[Thwomp!]

Are you joking?

 

Are you?

 

 

The Muslims have a saying: "everyone respects the strong horse." In other words, jihad loses much of its appeal when it becomes clear that it will be futile. So while I agree that the long term solution requires strong institutions and the adoption of many classically liberal ideals not found in Muslim societies, we won't get to the long term unless we win the war in the short term.

 

Do you think the scumbags in Paris would have persuaded by glib and pointless humor?

 

The war has already started. If we want to win we need to stop kidding ourselves about that fact.

 

We've been the "strong horse" for quite awhile now.  It's not working.  We need a different approach.

 

 

You're right, we need to sit down and reason with them.

 

Yep, that's totally what i said.  :rolleyes:   Hearts and minds are more effectively changed by the carrot (education, economy, cooperative means) rather than the stick (bombs, guns, and war).

[...]

d4rksabre, on 13 Nov 2015 - 9:20 PM, said:

World War 3 sounds fun. Where do I sign up?

 

You sign up every time you vote, and watch an episode of The Daily Show.

[JJFIVEOH]

It's been going on for over 1,000 years already.  It moves to different locations and occasionally takes a break but it's the same general conflict.

No, but you can certainly make it a lot better or worse depending on how we as a planet choose to handle immigrants and refugees many of whom are children.  Bring them into your society, help them be successful and it'll be ok, marginalize them, shut them out, keep them destitute and desperate at your own peril.

Well, they are, but the issue is they believe they can achieve personal victory through their own death.  The only person who volunteers to blow him or herself up for a cause is a person who feels like they truly have nothing to lose.

 

Age shouldn't matter. They're indoctrinating these kids as soon as they're old enough to speak.

[...]

Well, they are, but the issue is they believe they can achieve personal victory through their own death.  The only person who volunteers to blow him or herself up for a cause is a person who feels like they truly have nothing to lose.

Or, they think there are dozens of virgins waiting for them in the afterlife. Or, their family's lives are threatened. Or, there are promises their families will be taken care of. Or, they're psychopathic.

[Thwomp!]

Wow.  Good night France.  Good night Sabrespace.  May the morning find both in a better place than they currently are.

[JJFIVEOH]

Are you?

 

 

 

We've been the "strong horse" for quite awhile now.  It's not working.  We need a different approach.

 

 

 

Yep, that's totally what i said.  :rolleyes:   Hearts and minds are more effectively changed by the carrot (education, economy, cooperative means) rather than the stick (bombs, guns, and war).

 

So you sarcastically deny my assumption of what you said, and then follow it up with exactly what I thougt you said. I don't get it.

[Thwomp!]

So you sarcastically deny my assumption of what you said, and then follow it up with exactly what I thougt you said. I don't get it.

 

I hadn't said that before.  I said we needed a different approach.  I have never said that's sitting down and "reasoning" with radicalized people.  It is changing the way we interact with them and their culture so that the radicalization eventually stops.  It's a very long process.  It's been a very long process to get where we are and the current approach has failed.  How long do we continue with the same obviously failed approach?

[qwksndmonster]

The Muslims have a saying: "everyone respects the strong horse." In other words, jihad loses much of its appeal when it becomes clear that it will be futile. So while I agree that the long term solution requires strong institutions and the adoption of many classically liberal ideals not found in Muslim societies, we won't get to the long term unless we win the war in the short term.

 

Do you think the scumbags in Paris would have persuaded by glib and pointless humor?

 

The war has already started. If we want to win we need to stop kidding ourselves about that fact.

The war has started? How do we counter attack with our massive military? Where is the enemy? I really don't understand what this war is that has started.

[...]

Sh*t, it's been 150 years since slavery was abolished in America and we still can't get white people to stop being ###### to black people. And you think a little short term war is going to do anything against radical Islam? I want some of what you're drinking.

OH MY GOD.

 

No, it's been 150 years since slavery and people are still buying into the con job that anything remotely resembling slavery exists, or the treatment of black folks (or any other minority) is like what it was even 50 years ago. Or, that black folks (or any other minority) are repressed in any way in this country except voluntarily or by the people who supposedly represent them in government.

 

The problem we're going to have with radical Islam, Russia, the PRC, and ourselves, is a severe schism in what constitutes reality. So-called racial problems here prove that. A significant percentage of our own country-men have bought into the CON JOB that this country SUCKS and proceed from there trying to convince everyone else in some manner or other that they are right. A significant percentage of people have bought in to the idea that the government should provide...whatever...instead of getting...whatever... for themselves. That is contrary to the spirit that put us in this position as a nation in the first place. If you kill their spirit, you have beaten your enemy. We are nearly beaten already and it's all occurred from within.

 

France is first. Then Germany. The the UK. Then us.

Edited November 14, 2015 by SiZzlEmeIsTEr

[Neo]

For my edification, and with all due respect.

 

Are those opposed to military action willing to endure the occasional 9/11s, Charlie Hebdos, Paris Concert attacks, etc., until hearts and minds change?

 

This isn't a web blog based trap question.

 

I ask not having made a call for, nor having ruled out, the military. Several of you got ahead of me.

Edited November 14, 2015 by N'eo

[JJFIVEOH]

I hadn't said that before.  I said we needed a different approach.  I have never said that's sitting down and "reasoning" with radicalized people.  It is changing the way we interact with them and their culture so that the radicalization eventually stops.  It's a very long process.  It's been a very long process to get where we are and the current approach has failed.  How long do we continue with the same obviously failed approach?

 

Why do we need to come up with ways to make them better? Does that make any sense to you, finding ways to stop marginalizing them so they don't kill us?

[WildCard]

For my edification, and with all due respect.

 

Are those opposed to military action willing to endure the occasional 9/11s, Charlie Hebdos, Paris Concert attacks until hearts and minds change?

 

This isn't a web blog based trap question.

 

I ask not having made a call for, nor having ruled out, the military. Several of you got ahead of me.

I won't give up personal liberties in the name of fear.

[qwksndmonster]

OH MY GOD.

 

No, it's been 150 years since slavery and people are still buying into the con job that anything remotely resembling slavery exists, or the treatment of black folks (or any other minority) is like what it was even 50 years ago. Or, that black folks (or any other minority) are repressed in any way in this country except for voluntarily or by the people who supposedly represent them in government.

 

This isn't what d4rk was saying. The idealogical constructs from slavery have persisted, and still exist in this country today. We're not close to slavery, but we're not very close to equality either. Edited November 14, 2015 by qwksndmonster

[WildCard]

Why do we need to come up with ways to make them better? Does that make any sense to you, finding ways to stop marginalizing them so they don't kill us?

Your insistance of treating generations of different people as one entity is annoying. Treating the region better and helping them develop and educate the next generation if their own people is not he same as giving ISIS free rides to Harvard.

[nfreeman]

You're kidding yourself if you think this is something that can be solved by "winning the war in the short term".

 

News flash Freeman, there ain't no short term war on radical Islam. It could take hundreds of years. A military solution will take nothing short of full western occupation of middle eastern states. It will take ideological cleansing. And lots and lots of time. And hundreds of thousands of western lives.

 

Sh*t, it's been 150 years since slavery was abolished in America and we still can't get white people to stop being ###### to black people. And you think a little short term war is going to do anything against radical Islam? I want some of what you're drinking.

 

Not a "little short term war."  A determined, long-term commitment with a big honking scary, powerful, effective and frequently deployed US military base in the ME for generations -- just like there was in East Germany and South Korea -- which were and have been very effective.

 

 

Are you?

 

 

 

We've been the "strong horse" for quite awhile now.  It's not working.  We need a different approach.

 

 

 

Yep, that's totally what i said.  :rolleyes:   Hearts and minds are more effectively changed by the carrot (education, economy, cooperative means) rather than the stick (bombs, guns, and war).

 

We have not "been the strong horse for quite a while."  The current administration made its intentions very clear and followed through by bailing.  And guess what filled the void?  The force that anyone with a functioning brain foresaw -- bloodthirsty lunatics jockeying to be the new kingpin in the prison yard.

 

This is what irritates me, when we as a country get involved in stuff like this it never works out well.  It won't in the future either because short of fully conquering a place and assimilating the culture the people or concept you're fighting will just wait you out because eventually you're going home.  On the other hand, when we try to stay out of it and let people govern their own lands (ugly though that is) people then complain that America isn't leading the way and is weak and irreparably damaged.

 

What's the upside to intervening with ISIS right now?  I mean that in a serious way.  You aren't going to kill them all. You aren't going to extinguish the idea of sovereign islamic states.  All you're going to do is pick a side and make enemies - probably of both sides int he end.  First the side you choose to fight against, but then eventually the people you're fighting with when they feel like you didn't do enough and left them out to dry.  Example, let's assume the Russian bombing and today's attacks are related.  The Russians and French are supporting opposite sides in Syria but are getting attacked for it regardless just because they're involved.

 

That is indeed what's happened, but it shouldn't have.  We should've stayed, as I stated above, for generations.

I won't give up personal liberties in the name of fear.

 

I don't think this is what Neo was asking.  He was asking -- I think -- whether you'd prefer to swallow regular terrorist atrocities, both here and in Europe, as the price for not deploying, say, 75,000 US troops in the ME.

[Neo]

I hadn't said that before. I said we needed a different approach. I have never said that's sitting down and "reasoning" with radicalized people. It is changing the way we interact with them and their culture so that the radicalization eventually stops. It's a very long process. It's been a very long process to get where we are and the current approach has failed. How long do we continue with the same obviously failed approach?

East ... I don't like you, I love you ....

 

... but you said something I hear often and couldn't disagree with more. "It's changing the way WE interact with THEM ... so that ... etc."

 

There is accountability, tonight, for the deaths of hundreds of Parisian men, woman and children. The accountable parties aren't the dead. I will never understand the self blaming philosophy that gives a pass to murders. Further, the moral equivalency between any arrogant American wrong, today or one hundred fifty years ago, and the beheading of Christians for your viewing pleasure, simply doesn't exist in any world I'm familiar with.

 

 

Lastly - This is a night we will all remember forever. I had my television and my iPad. I chose to spend it with all of you because of the respect I have for your views.

Edited November 14, 2015 by N'eo

[qwksndmonster]

N'eo, *sniffle*, /hug

 

:cry:

[Neo]

I won't give up personal liberties in the name of fear.

You have in America! Have you visited Washington, DC, lately? Do you have a cell phone? Have you tried to bring a purse into a hockey game?