off topic The politics of terrorism

[Neo]

Do you not practice a religion that condemns us to Hell?

Are we having a non sequitur moment? I replied to a post about morality being linked to, or limited to, or sourced in, religion and/or Christianity. The gist of two posts, as I understood them, was that you don't have to be religious or Christian to be a good person or moral. To that I'll say "of course you don't". I hope no one challenged that. The gist of the third was that it bore repeating here. Maybe I missed a challenge.

 

To your question: I am a Christian. Hell is part of Christianity. I have no view on who is condemned to hell or who isn't. That would be above my pay grade.

[Hoss]

Ok, whatever you like Hoss. Potato, potatoe. My use of "this President" was not meant to be disparaging in any way. If anything I was using the word as a point of distinction, as in "this specific President". IMHO you are a bit hypersensitive, but to each his own. I have noticed on this board that certain feathers get Ruffled when President Obama (there, is that OK?) is not accorded the proper reverence on a team hockey board, for Heaven's sake.

 

I could just as easily take issue with your description of "our current leader". Leader is not a description that comes to my mind when I hear the word used in conjunction with President Obama.

 

You really have to ask what he is denying?

I'm not offended by your use of "this president." It's just a terminology that is exclusively used by those who don't like the president so, for me, it kind of invalidates most of what you're saying. It's like a "oh, I know where you're coming from" kind of thing.

You can disagree and hate him all you want. You can refer to him as "this president" but it just sets a certain tone in my head when I hear it. No need to use the typical "you're being too sensitive" stuff here. You can explain your reasoning without it. I wasn't and am not offended.

 

And yes, I'm wondering what it is you're saying he's denying.

[Stoner]

Here's one Hoss, maybe a little before your time. Fox News: President Bush or "our president." But "Obama."

Edited December 11, 2015 by pASabreFan

[Hoss]

Here's one Hoss, maybe a little before your time. Fox News: President Bush or "our president." But "Obama."

I think a lot can be gleaned from the specific language you use when talking about the president. Your example is one I remember and is a good example.

[SarasotaSabre]

I'm not offended by your use of "this president." It's just a terminology that is exclusively used by those who don't like the president so, for me, it kind of invalidates most of what you're saying. It's like a "oh, I know where you're coming from" kind of thing.

You can disagree and hate him all you want. You can refer to him as "this president" but it just sets a certain tone in my head when I hear it. No need to use the typical "you're being too sensitive" stuff here. You can explain your reasoning without it. I wasn't and am not offended.

 

And yes, I'm wondering what it is you're saying he's denying.

 

Hoss, I understand you don't know me from Adam and I'm being sincere here....but for you to lump me in with everyone who uses a certain word which you think connotes hatred and invalidates everything in your mind I wrote is just plain unfair. It's another example of blanket generalizations and assumptions made toward me based upon a particular hot button you can't seem to look beyond. Do I disagree with Obama? Yes, frequently. Do I hate him? NO. I could easily say this assertion by you invalidates everything else you wrote, but unlike you, I can look beyond this unfortunate assumption on your part. To even suggest I disagree & hate him b/c I used a certain phrase is almost absurd, with all due respect; and I do respect you as a fellow fan & poster. You seem like a very smart guy and valuable contributor and I am truly disappointed this discussion has gone so sideways over (in my mind) an unintended word.

 

I think he is denying several things: the real threat of our border security & sovereignty, his predilection toward admitting higher risk refugees at a time when ISIS is planning on inflitrating our country by sabotaging the visa/refugee population, refusing to admit the root cause (by name) of extremist savagery done by a medieval interpretation of Islam (...and in so doing, for example, advancing the narrative of gun control as the main thrust of San Bernardino), minimizing our most urgent national concern by claiming the linkage of climate change, claiming mass shootings don't happen in other countries while attending said climate change conference in PARIS, FRANCE ( :wallbash:  :wallbash:  :wallbash: , denying the folly of the Iranian nuclear "deal", denying our fiscal insolvency while ignoring our impeding economic armageddon, denying and refusing to enforce & uphold the laws of the land (which is his top job requirement along with protecting the American citizenry, denying we have an illegal immigration problem (which conveniently creates a permanent Democratic voting bloc - what a coincidence)**, denial & abuse of his position as Chief Executive by acting through executive fiat/overreach, often without Congressional approval, & wrongfully exiting the Iraq War to claim a successful end to that war, creating a huge vacuum to be filled by ISIS.

 

What you don't know about me is that I wanted the President to succeed but I can look at these failures pragmatically and not ideologically. I don't throw stones just because Obama is a Democrat. I critique his failures pragmatically (things which have not worked and made our country less safe and worse off. By the same token, I applaud him for trying to get something done with universal healthcare, but as a professional formerly in the healthcare IT space, numerous sectors of the healthcare industry have been decimated (including mine).

 

So, in closing, I don't hate Obama, I'm not a right-wing flamethrower or committed ideologue; at the end of the day I'm just a very concerned citizen.

[SwampD]

"impeding economic armageddon"

 

Boy, that sure sounds scary.

[Hoss]

I feel like most of what you just said he is denying are really just things you disagree with, ATL. He's not "denying" something if he firmly believes the opposite is true.

[Claude_Verret]

He's not "THIS president" he's THE president. Small language quirk that has always annoyed me when it comes to the way people talk about our current leader.

And what are you saying he's denying?

Were your feathers equally as ruffled with the way some referred to our PREVIOUS president?

 

edit:  And since it will like be perceived as such, this question is in no way an endorsement or in defense of our previous president. IMO it's a coin flip at this point as to whether our previous or current president is worse.

Edited December 11, 2015 by Claude_Verret

[Neo]

I feel like most of what you just said he is denying are really just things you disagree with, ATL. He's not "denying" something if he firmly believes the opposite is true.

 

 

Just like climate change deniers!   Ooops, (duck).

 

My interest is language, for the record.  Wanna make sure persuading someone to your point of view is made more difficult and less likely?  Make an ad hominem remark calling him/her a denier.  And yes, there are examples on the right and left, you bleeding heart, kumbaya singing mush melons.   (I made mush melons up).

 

Not you, Hoss, my good Jimmy Olson ... not you!

 

We've and D4rk ... I still owe you thoughts on assumption of risk, the price we pay, and policy.  My Strunk and White attribution error made me "posting" gun shy .... no ironic use of that phrase intended (what a beautiful world - the joy of small and ironic juxtapositions).

 

 

Further to language and my ears.  I think "The President" is most likely always respectful, disagree or not, and "This President" may or may not be, depending on what follows.  There's a different emphasis.  Both can be appropriate and the speaker's distinction is likely deliberate.  My ears also hear "Bush" as often as "Obama".  Either's less respectful than "President Smith", but not necessarily disrespectful.  Obama leads fight for health care.  Bush cuts taxes.  Same thing to me.  President Clinton leads welfare reform.  More respectful.  This President .....  well, let's see what follows.

Edited December 11, 2015 by N'eo

[shrader]

Please let them at least try to fight ISIS. I need this to be a TV series.

 

What was that show a few years back that would do a tale of the tape style break down of what would happen if historical figures battled?  It sounds perfect here.

[SarasotaSabre]

"impeding economic armageddon"

 

Boy, that sure sounds scary.

 

impending is the word I intended to write; and ignore the economic calamity if you wish. 

I feel like most of what you just said he is denying are really just things you disagree with, ATL. He's not "denying" something if he firmly believes the opposite is true.

 

Fair enough, but I equated "denial" to a failure in upholding his duties as President ; i.e., does he "firmly believe" we don't have an illegal immigration problem?

[SwampD]

impending is the word I intended to write; and ignore the economic calamity if you wish. 

 

I actually didn't notice the typo and knew what you meant. I just find it to be hyperbolic garbage. And your memory must be really short to have forgotten that we just went through an economic armageddon during the last presidency. I'm guessing that was Obama's fault as well.

Edited December 11, 2015 by SwampD

[SarasotaSabre]

I actually didn't notice the typo and knew what you meant. I just find it to be hyperbolic garbage. And your memory must be really short to have forgotten that we just went through an economic armageddon during the last presidency. I'm guessing that was Obama's fault as well.

 

OK thanks for the garbage comment. No my memory is very sound, thank you very much. I am well aware of the debt/deficit accrued during Bush's presidency. Funny how you call my armageddon comment "hyperbolic garbage" but you then proceed to use it yourself. Classic liberal knee-jerk response to blame Bush's failures on Obama. More blanket statement accusations.

 

The federal debt has already grown more during Obama’s first six years than under all previous U.S. presidents combined, at least in nominal dollars with no adjustment for inflation. The debt owed to the public stands at about $13 trillion, an increase of 106 percent since Obama first took office.

Total debt, counting money the government owes to itself, stands at $18.1 trillion, up 70 percent.

 

http://www.factcheck.org/2015/01/obamas-numbers-january-2015-update/

[Hoss]

N'eo - our views are often quite different but there are many times I find myself wishing I had said what I said in the manner you did. Everything from "further to language" on is what I'm getting at in a less thorough way.

[Stoner]

OK thanks for the garbage comment. No my memory is very sound, thank you very much. I am well aware of the debt/deficit accrued during Bush's presidency. Funny how you call my armageddon comment "hyperbolic garbage" but you then proceed to use it yourself. Classic liberal knee-jerk response to blame Bush's failures on Obama. More blanket statement accusations.

 

The federal debt has already grown more during Obama’s first six years than under all previous U.S. presidents combined, at least in nominal dollars with no adjustment for inflation. The debt owed to the public stands at about $13 trillion, an increase of 106 percent since Obama first took office.

Total debt, counting money the government owes to itself, stands at $18.1 trillion, up 70 percent.

 

http://www.factcheck.org/2015/01/obamas-numbers-january-2015-update/

As the Gipper used to say, "Well... the president can't spend a dime."

[SwampD]

OK thanks for the garbage comment. No my memory is very sound, thank you very much. I am well aware of the debt/deficit accrued during Bush's presidency. Funny how you call my armageddon comment "hyperbolic garbage" but you then proceed to use it yourself. Classic liberal knee-jerk response to blame Bush's failures on Obama. More blanket statement accusations.

 

The federal debt has already grown more during Obama’s first six years than under all previous U.S. presidents combined, at least in nominal dollars with no adjustment for inflation. The debt owed to the public stands at about $13 trillion, an increase of 106 percent since Obama first took office.

Total debt, counting money the government owes to itself, stands at $18.1 trillion, up 70 percent.

 

http://www.factcheck.org/2015/01/obamas-numbers-january-2015-update/

Do they teach phrases like that at right wing academy? And nothing you've written hasn't been a, how does that go, I got it, a classic right wing knee jerk response.

 

I think you meant to say "to blame Obama's failures on Bush", and I wasn't. But now that you mention it, do you really not think that what Obama inherited was a steaming pile. It's better now. We went through the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression. It's better now. Read this board from during that time. It's better now.

 

I just don't understand why people choose to be miserable.

 

Should probably take this to the other thread.

[darksabre]

Just like climate change deniers!   Ooops, (duck).

 

My interest is language, for the record.  Wanna make sure persuading someone to your point of view is made more difficult and less likely?  Make an ad hominem remark calling him/her a denier.  And yes, there are examples on the right and left, you bleeding heart, kumbaya singing mush melons.   (I made mush melons up).

 

Not you, Hoss, my good Jimmy Olson ... not you!

 

We've and D4rk ... I still owe you thoughts on assumption of risk, the price we pay, and policy.  My Strunk and White attribution error made me "posting" gun shy .... no ironic use of that phrase intended (what a beautiful world - the joy of small and ironic juxtapositions).

 

 

Further to language and my ears.  I think "The President" is most likely always respectful, disagree or not, and "This President" may or may not be, depending on what follows.  There's a different emphasis.  Both can be appropriate and the speaker's distinction is likely deliberate.  My ears also hear "Bush" as often as "Obama".  Either's less respectful than "President Smith", but not necessarily disrespectful.  Obama leads fight for health care.  Bush cuts taxes.  Same thing to me.  President Clinton leads welfare reform.  More respectful.  This President .....  well, let's see what follows.

That topic, assumption of risk, cost-benefit analysis, etc., when discussed at large levels, is not an easy one. I can speak all day about myself, but trying to apply it to an entire citizenry, is not easy. 

[SarasotaSabre]

Do they teach phrases like that at right wing academy? And nothing you've written hasn't been a, how does that go, I got it, a classic right wing knee jerk response.

 

I think you meant to say "to blame Obama's failures on Bush", and I wasn't. But now that you mention it, do you really not think that what Obama inherited was a steaming pile. It's better now. We went through the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression. It's better now. Read this board from during that time. It's better now.

 

I just don't understand why people choose to be miserable.

 

Should probably take this to the other thread.

 

you started the partisan phraseology nonsense. It's better now? OK keep smoking whatever it is you have.

 

I am a very happy person. Almost lost my life in Buffalo on 12/28/97 so I am forever grateful and always hopeful and optimistic. But go on and call me miserable. I get it; we're from opposite ends of the political spectrum so we won't agree on much. So I won't waste another minute of my day on this crap with you.

 

Have a great Friday - and I do mean that

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

I think there's gonna be a giant earthquake or some other natural disaster in the next few days.

 

People are losing their sh!t on each other, but even more the animals are freaking. Horses flipping and running off, $100 winners back to back at major outlets....

 

This you can call tinfoil. Still, there needs to be an environmental stress relief.

[Neo]

N'eo - our views are often quite different but there are many times I find myself wishing I had said what I said in the manner you did. Everything from "further to language" on is what I'm getting at in a less thorough way.

Our views are often different. I come here to learn yours. You're the future.

 

I had a day to think before I achieved "thorough"!

Edited December 11, 2015 by N'eo

[Neo]

Do they teach phrases like that at right wing academy?

Ha! Like we'd tell YOU.

[SwampD]

Ha! Like we'd tell YOU.

You can keep pretending you went there but we know better.

I think there's gonna be a giant earthquake or some other natural disaster in the next few days.

People are losing their sh!t on each other, but even more the animals are freaking. Horses flipping and running off, $100 winners back to back at major outlets....

This you can call tinfoil. Still, there needs to be an environmental stress relief.

I love this and totally believe it.

you started the partisan phraseology nonsense. It's better now? OK keep smoking whatever it is you have.

 

I am a very happy person. Almost lost my life in Buffalo on 12/28/97 so I am forever grateful and always hopeful and optimistic. But go on and call me miserable. I get it; we're from opposite ends of the political spectrum so we won't agree on much. So I won't waste another minute of my day on this crap with you.

 

Have a great Friday - and I do mean that

I hope you had a great day too. I sure did. Edited December 12, 2015 by SwampD

[SarasotaSabre]

You can keep pretending you went there but we know better.

I love this and totally believe it.

I hope you had a great day too. I sure did.

 

thanks - end of a long week of travel, good to be home

[Neo]

Threats, safety, governments, people, privacy ..... I do not envy the young because of the world they're inheriting. I fear, not knowing the stakes, they acquiesce too quickly .... My grandparents were born into a world and died in a very different one. I will die in one that couldn't be imagined at my birth.

 

"History is filled with the sound of silken slippers going downstairs and wooden shoes coming up."

Voltaire

 

Watch these. TED is awesome.

 

https://www.ted.com/talks/mikko_hypponen_how_the_nsa_betrayed_the_world_s_trust_time_to_act?language=en#t-783771

 

https://www.ted.com/talks/mikko_hypponen_three_types_of_online_attack?language=en

 

https://www.ted.com/talks/christopher_soghoian_government_surveillance_this_is_just_the_beginning?language=en

 

https://www.ted.com/talks/christopher_soghoian_a_brief_history_of_phone_wiretapping_and_how_to_avoid_it?language=en

 

As one speaker notes ... Orwell could never have imagined. In 2013, we asked if Snowden was a hero or a traitor. I admired his philosophy, but not his methods. I came down on the side of the government and its security organizations and considered him naive. I was naive. He is a hero.

 

On another note - I have finished my first book on Islam. It was informative in that it pointed to history, events and people. It was less so because it had, in fact it claims, an agenda or narrative. I want to form my own narrative, of course. I'll accept the outline and know what I'm looking for in more scholarly, less admittedly biased, works. Quick and easy, a good place to start.

Edited December 24, 2015 by N'eo

[Doohicksie]

Thought not specifically about Islam, it is about the longest-lived Islamic empire:  The Ottoman Centuries.  You might like it.