off topic The politics of terrorism

[Stoner]

Mrs. Nutjob swore her allegiance to ISIS just before the massacre via a Facebook post. If that's not a connection in your opinion, then so be it. I get it; you'd rather not go there yet. If you disagree with anyone using the term yet, including a broadcast/web news outlet, that's a strong stance.

 

Question: when do think it would be appropriate to use?

 

FYI, FBI now officially investigating this incident as an act of terrorism; important distinction from potential "workplace violence"

I did describe the use of the word as "loose," implying that it was on some level appropriate. "Connection" to me implies that they were working in concert with ISIS, being directed by ISIS, being funded by ISIS etc. Posting something on Facebook is pretty weak sauce, if that's the only evidence that ever shows up. I could go on some spree, then post my allegiance to Rick Jeanneret here. What kind of connection would that prove?

[darksabre]

I did describe the use of the word as "loose," implying that it was on some level appropriate. "Connection" to me implies that they were working in concert with ISIS, being directed by ISIS, being funded by ISIS etc. Posting something on Facebook is pretty weak sauce, if that's the only evidence that ever shows up. I could go on some spree, then post my allegiance to Rick Jeanneret here. What kind of connection would that prove?

Anti-dentite

[Stoner]

Anti-dentite

There was fluoride everywhere.

[Doohicksie]

I did describe the use of the word as "loose," implying that it was on some level appropriate. "Connection" to me implies that they were working in concert with ISIS, being directed by ISIS, being funded by ISIS etc. Posting something on Facebook is pretty weak sauce, if that's the only evidence that ever shows up. I could go on some spree, then post my allegiance to Rick Jeanneret here. What kind of connection would that prove?

 

 

There are people who are under the control of ISIS, and there are those who are under the influence of ISIS.  They put stuff out there to appeal to people that feel isolated from their communities, drawing them in to be "part of something bigger."  A lot of what ISIS seeks to do is to just influence them to be wannabees or copycats.  Whether or not they are under the control or influence matters not to ISIS, as long as they can dupe some of them (such as the San Berdoo shooters) into carrying out violence in their name.

[SarasotaSabre]

 

There are people who are under the control of ISIS, and there are those who are under the influence of ISIS.  They put stuff out there to appeal to people that feel isolated from their communities, drawing them in to be "part of something bigger."  A lot of what ISIS seeks to do is to just influence them to be wannabees or copycats.  Whether or not they are under the control or influence matters not to ISIS, as long as they can dupe some of them (such as the San Berdoo shooters) into carrying out violence in their name.

true, and ISIS has been actively encouraging vigilante one-offs to kill the infidels in their name, so the depth of formal connection may not matter anyway. (PASabrefan, addressing this to you too)

I did describe the use of the word as "loose," implying that it was on some level appropriate. "Connection" to me implies that they were working in concert with ISIS, being directed by ISIS, being funded by ISIS etc. Posting something on Facebook is pretty weak sauce, if that's the only evidence that ever shows up. I could go on some spree, then post my allegiance to Rick Jeanneret here. What kind of connection would that prove?

sorry, I did not interpret "very loose use" of the word "connection" as a tacit implication that it was on some level appropriate. My limited Jedi mind powers prevented me from reading your mind....)) I don't think the CCN was implying the Facebook post made the connection a fait accompli.

[Weave]

For everyone who thinks Obama is a pacifist or something, we're running out of bombs. Seriously. We're running out of bombs.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/04/politics/air-force-20000-bombs-missiles-isis/index.html

 

He's turned out to be every bit the war monger his predecessor was.  He didn't start it, but man he sure did roll up his sleeves and get to work.

[K-9]

My "faith" in you is undiminished!

 

I have loved ones, with advanced degrees in smartness, who believe the earth is 6,000 years old.  They understand your evidence to the contrary.  Me?  I'm your "can have both" guy.  Some would say I therefore have neither.

Smartness and wilfull ignorance are seldom a healthy combination. I think it is a dangerous formula, actually.

 

And anyone offended by cartoon depictions of their God or Prophet or whatever are not as strong in their faith as they would have me believe. True faith needs to withstand the harshest of insults and other attempts to diminish it. It needs no justification, especially in an imagined defense of it.

[Weave]

Smartness and wilfull ignorance are seldom a healthy combination. I think it is a dangerous formula, actually.

 

And anyone offended by cartoon depictions of their God or Prophet or whatever are not as strong in their faith as they would have me believe. True faith needs to withstand the harshest of insults and other attempts to diminish it. It needs no justification, especially in an imagined defense of it.

 

The folks who have chimed in to claim offensive material here are not YEC, so it is not their faiths that are being tested. It is tolerance that is being tested.

[LastPommerFan]

Guns and violent media.  That's it, really?  This is an old saw, in different forms, that has existed since the dawn of western civilization.   We need to seriously think outside the box on these matters, not fall back into the tired old patterns that clearly have no effect the issues at hand.

 

My suggestions are, first of all, that people absolutely need to dispose of the idea that Utopia is a realistic objective.  It will never, ever be, because it is against nature.  Which leads me to my second suggestion: adopt a respect for nature and the lessons it teaches.  There is no equality in nature, but there is balance.  There isn't equality among the species that exist at the top of the food chain, and there are always battles amongst individuals seeking power and territory within those species.  We are no different in a sense, but have the capability to rationalize an artificial balance - but taking that concept too far leads to Utopianism which, clearly, is unrealistic and leads to imbalance.

 

We also need to stop the perpetual philosophical assassination of God.  While assassinating God may make a great sport for some on paper, it does not account for the reality that people experience "things" that others don't understand or respect but are still REAL to them and that's good enough.  "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy" could be, perhaps, the most important phrase ever written by the Bard and, yet, which is so maligned and under-studied.  The whole concept of God and things we don't understand yet needs to be seriously re-evaluated as a culture.

 

I suggest the latter not because I want to proselytize, that's not my thing, but rather as a means to re-establishing respect between multiple levels of peoples.  God-fearing folk of any religion are, frankly, upset by the lack of humility of those who think they know better.  That's enough to cause tensions and problems.  Is it so hard to re-visit philosophies and social memes that belittle metaphysics - apply modern logic and modern knowledge to these concepts, rather than default to a 50+ year old narrative where the cool, self-proclaimed smart people mock those whose lives have shown them that Shakespeare was right?

 

My final suggestion is for everyone to adopt a healthy skepticism towards government of all levels regardless of how enamored you may be of the words spewing from a politician's mouths. Have we not learned that ALL government and ALL politicians are filthy liars that over-promise and under-deliver?  Indeed, lately, have we not seen that regardless of the politics espoused by government, they are acting on the government's behalf and not the peoples'?

 

A shift in the intellectual approach to this problem is in order.

 

Re-quoting this to bring it back around.

 

It's not about "offensive" or even "right" or "wrong". It's about 7 Billion humans trying to make sense of the world in there own way, and everyone being a little bit more respectful of that. 

 

It's not about the memes. Its the philosophical trend toward some sort of enlightened oneness.

[K-9]

The folks who have chimed in to claim offensive material here are not YEC, so it is not their faiths that are being tested. It is tolerance that is being tested.

I came late to this dance and don't know what YEC is.

 

Good point about tolerance. I submit faith is impossible without it.

[LastPommerFan]

I came late to this dance and don't know what YEC is.

 

Good point about tolerance. I submit faith is impossible without it.

 

Young Earth Creationist

[K-9]

Young Earth Creationist

Thanks for the clarification.

 

My post was certainly not confined to their particular brand of being offended, though. It goes for anyone of any faith in anything.

[LastPommerFan]

Thanks for the clarification.

 

My post was certainly not confined to their particular brand of being offended, though. It goes for anyone of any faith in anything.

 

Somehow we drifted into offended. I don't think "offense" is the issue we need to worry about. It's about people feeling belittled. Feeling lost. We can all work together. 99.9999% of the people on this planet are working really hard toward 2 things: providing for their family and giving their children a slightly better shot at being able to do the same. That work is really hard, it's all we can worry about. We need something to tie the rest together. For some, that's tribal/community/political affiliation, to others, it's evidence based science, still to others, it's faith. All of those options are ok if they make your life a little smoother. 

 

It becomes a problem when we start belittling each other based on our community, or our academics, or our faith. It makes the world, and already tough (not evil, but certainly not easy) world harder. It might just be a little bit harder, but it's harder unnecessarily. 

 

I'm not saying we can't try and convert folks, show them that our system will make their lives even easier, better. But belittling people does unneeded harm.

[Weave]

Just to clarify. I wasnt offended by the memes. I do know them to be offensive to many though. Sabrespace is an amazingly inclusive place (provided that you are not a Flyers fan of course). We went years here without religious memes that infest the internet cluttering the threads here. Totally selfish but I want it to stay that way.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

I get around to things slowly, but I'm going to find Armstrong. I was hoping you'd reply.

 

I also want the Qur'an. If you know of one that's annotated for a newbie, I'd be grateful. Amazon has hundreds.

 

Let me ask. Your first words were "the Qur'an." Is there a link between that first response and the belief that the Qur'an is the unadulterated word of God? In other words, is that always the best answer?

 

You may recall President Obama calling the Muslim call to prayer one of the prettiest sounds on earth. I've youtubed it. It is beautiful.

 

Grateful to you and XB.

 

It won't be. The first go around wasn't, either.

 

In order to understand real Islam one must read the Qur'an.

 

I fear that what you are going to find is not really Islam as it was intended to be.  What we have now mostly is a fragment that has been influenced by 1400 years of culture and tradition masking as Islam.

 

I would highly recommend Abdullah Yusuf Ali's (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_Yusuf_Ali) version.  He spent the better part of his life on it. 

You ain't gonna stop Freeman from posting his talk radio nonsense. Like the rising and setting of the sun...

 

It gets real old doesn't it.

 

I have half a mind to report him, oh, never mind.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

okay dokey. Before Harper was booted out of office here in Canadeh he pushed through something called bill c51. Its pages long but one of the new powers he's given to the police is the ability to come into your house without a warrant. France just gave their police the same powers among other things a day after the Paris attack. In Canada if you protest on a streetcorner against ...mmmm maybe an oil corporation for environmental concerns you can be labelled a terrorist and thrown in jail without legal council indefinately. They make no distinction between eco terrorist or plain old terrorist with jihadist beliefs. Thats another beaut from bill c51. Among many more too varied to list. This isn't about just laws. This is about pushing through draconian tyrannical laws that chip away at basic human rights and freedoms in the name of security and every country is doing it. My opinion mind you but its hard to deny where its all leading.   

 

Not to mention the part about arresting you and holding you even if they never charge you with anything.

 

I will not sleep at night until that most shameful of laws is completely repealed.  I based my vote in the most recent election on that one issue.

 

Hopefully Mr. Trudeau does the right thing.  I didn't vote for him, as he said he would only repeal parts of that bill.

[Claude_Verret]

I'm with Freeman

[K-9]

Somehow we drifted into offended. I don't think "offense" is the issue we need to worry about. It's about people feeling belittled. Feeling lost. We can all work together. 99.9999% of the people on this planet are working really hard toward 2 things: providing for their family and giving their children a slightly better shot at being able to do the same. That work is really hard, it's all we can worry about. We need something to tie the rest together. For some, that's tribal/community/political affiliation, to others, it's evidence based science, still to others, it's faith. All of those options are ok if they make your life a little smoother. 

 

It becomes a problem when we start belittling each other based on our community, or our academics, or our faith. It makes the world, and already tough (not evil, but certainly not easy) world harder. It might just be a little bit harder, but it's harder unnecessarily. 

 

I'm not saying we can't try and convert folks, show them that our system will make their lives even easier, better. But belittling people does unneeded harm.

This is all good stuff to be sure. 

 

One can't belittle others if others can't be belittled. One can't be belittled if one doesn't take offense. Nothing anyone can say, no amount of ridicule what so ever, can have the power to shake one's faith. If it does, the faith isn't strong enough to begin with. 

[LastPommerFan]

This is all good stuff to be sure.

 

One can't belittle others if others can't be belittled. One can't be belittled if one doesn't take offense. Nothing anyone can say, no amount of ridicule what so ever, can have the power to shake one's faith. If it does, the faith isn't strong enough to begin with.

Sure it can. One's faith can remain strong, while one's emotions are hurt by a world that appears to be rejecting or hostile or both. Belittling people is never needed. It's never productive for humanity. I do it. I wish I didn't. I'll work to do it less.

[Doohicksie]

For everyone who thinks Obama is a pacifist or something, we're running out of bombs. Seriously. We're running out of bombs.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/04/politics/air-force-20000-bombs-missiles-isis/index.html

Time to break out the nukes.

[Neo]

This is all good stuff to be sure. 

 

One can't belittle others if others can't be belittled. One can't be belittled if one doesn't take offense. Nothing anyone can say, no amount of ridicule what so ever, can have the power to shake one's faith. If it does, the faith isn't strong enough to begin with.

 

Those I've talked to don't feel their faith is challenged one bit. They also don't feel any more or less conviction. They don't need challenges to affirm. They need nothing.

 

They're offended by people who are rude and insensitive. They're tired of people telling them what their faith needs and how they should feel. They understand science and math and don't understand why others don't understand faith, whether others share it or not.

 

I have no view on their faith. I also have no sense of self that allows me to tell them what they should feel or think or believe.

 

This isn't a religion issue. It's a common decency and respect issue. Substitute hairstyle for religion. The same construct holds.

 

They're not offended by the religious commentary, solely. That's the topic. They're offended by smarmy people telling them they're dumb. It's quite a bit different to say I disagree. It's another to say you need to be challenged (says who) or you don't understand carbon dating (do so). I see boorish behavior and people who substitute their judgment for others. I think that's the rub. Your post moves from the original topic, telling people of faith what to believe and providing evidence with a sneer, to telling people of faith how their feelings represent the strength of their conviction. Where do you get this confidence?

 

And sure, the shoe's on both feet. If a devout person sneers and tells an atheist he or she is faithless and doomed for eternity, the same offense is committed.

 

Does the "one can't be belittled if one doesn't take offense" apply when an African American hears a racial insult? When I was a boy, blacks "weren't smart enough to play quarterback". I'm glad we came to understand that's offensive instead of telling black people that we were just challenging them and allowing them to affirm themselves. Further, telling them that failing that, maybe they really weren't smart enough to play quarterback.

 

Why are people of faith the only category of people to whom we can say "it's your job not to feel offense when I'm offensive"?

 

I don't buy into the "I'm rude to you, but if you feel it, maybe you're not what you say you are" thing.

 

Faith is different. Everyone's is theirs and different. Beautiful. I have zero standing to belittle anyone else's.

 

You are a great poster. I'm explaining my view more deeply. I know you harbor no ill will.

[bunomatic]

Not to mention the part about arresting you and holding you even if they never charge you with anything.

 

I will not sleep at night until that most shameful of laws is completely repealed.  I based my vote in the most recent election on that one issue.

 

Hopefully Mr. Trudeau does the right thing.  I didn't vote for him, as he said he would only repeal parts of that bill.

I didn't vote for Harpers gov't when he came into power but I surely helped to vote him out. This is a topic( bill c51 ) near and dear to my heart. Its crazy this got pushed through. I also didn't vote for Trudeau for that very reason. In the most recent election my guy never got in but my vote was important if that makes sense. I am hopeful for young Trudeau but they all become corporate stooges at some point. 

[Claude_Verret]

For everyone who thinks Obama is a pacifist or something, we're running out of bombs. Seriously. We're running out of bombs.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/04/politics/air-force-20000-bombs-missiles-isis/index.html

If that's all we're gonna do, drop bombs, then running out of bombs is about all that's going to be accomplished.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

I didn't vote for Harpers gov't when he came into power but I surely helped to vote him out. This is a topic( bill c51 ) near and dear to my heart. Its crazy this got pushed through. I also didn't vote for Trudeau for that very reason. In the most recent election my guy never got in but my vote was important if that makes sense. I am hopeful for young Trudeau but they all become corporate stooges at some point. 

 

I hear ya, brother.

[K-9]

Those I've talked to don't feel their faith is challenged one bit. They also don't feel any more or less conviction. They don't need challenges to affirm. They need nothing.

 

They're offended by people who are rude and insensitive. They're tired of people telling them what their faith needs and how they should feel. They understand science and math and don't understand why others don't understand faith, whether others share it or not.

 

I have no view on their faith. I also have no sense of self that allows me to tell them what they should feel or think or believe.

 

This isn't a religion issue. It's a common decency and respect issue. Substitute hairstyle for religion. The same construct holds.

 

They're not offended by the religious commentary, solely. That's the topic. They're offended by smarmy people telling them they're dumb. It's quite a bit different to say I disagree. It's another to say you need to be challenged (says who) or you don't understand carbon dating (do so). I see boorish behavior and people who substitute their judgment for others. I think that's the rub. Your post moves from the original topic, telling people of faith what to believe and providing evidence with a sneer, to telling people of faith how their feelings represent the strength of their conviction. Where do you get this confidence?

 

And sure, the shoe's on both feet. If a devout person sneers and tells an atheist he or she is faithless and doomed for eternity, the same offense is committed.

 

Does the "one can't be belittled if one doesn't take offense" apply when an African American hears a racial insult? When I was a boy, blacks "weren't smart enough to play quarterback". I'm glad we came to understand that's offensive instead of telling black people that we were just challenging them and allowing them to affirm themselves. Further, telling them that failing that, maybe they really weren't smart enough to play quarterback.

 

Why are people of faith the only category of people to whom we can say "it's your job not to feel offense when I'm offensive"?

 

I don't buy into the "I'm rude to you, but if you feel it, maybe you're not what you say you are" thing.

 

Faith is different. Everyone's is theirs and different. Beautiful. I have zero standing to belittle anyone else's.

 

You are a great poster. I'm explaining my view more deeply. I know you harbor no ill will.

All good stuff here as well. Nothing to disagree with here at all. 

 

I am only looking at the question of insulting someone's faith. Quite simply, it cannot be insulted. It is transcendent. If Muslims are offended by caricatures of the Prophet or Christians by the cartoons of a "raptor Jesus", etc, then the faith has been lost.