LastPommerFan Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 Interesting point raised by a military friend of mine: Hollande declares this an act of war. SInce 2009, France has been back as a full member of NATO. Will Hollande Invoke Article V? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 (edited) I had to take a break last night, because I had some people I needed to worry about. I'm thrilled to report that all of my friends, former coworkers, and acquaintances are accounted for. *snip* A remarkable post that warms me. Just when I think I'm alone on an island, I see land close by. Who knew? If you have friends and colleagues in Paris, you're much closer to it than me. You'll understand better than most how it absolutely got into my blood in only 11 days. The city and people are life changing to visitors. Beauty and perspective everywhere. I've not experienced anything like it. I sat in Rodin's gardens and touched the tomb of Voltaire. My daughter and I stood at the window Louis XVI stood at with Marie Antoinette as the revolution came to his palace. We had lunch at Les Deux Magots, as did Simone de Beauvoir, Jean-Paul Sartre, Ernest Hemingway, Albert Camus, Pablo Picasso, James Joyce, Bertolt Brecht and Charles Sutherland. I stood over the desk where Hugo wrote Les Miserables and the typewriter where Heminway wrote The Sun Also Rises". A moveable feast, indeed. The French were gracious and welcoming. I'm not the same person. But, enough self indulgence. I'm happy those close to you are safe. I appreciate your balanced approach capturing hearts, minds, boots and bombs. Necessary, all, in my view. I'd look to fund and escrow the $Billion from the reluctant Sunni Saudis and Shia Iranians before I started. Edited November 14, 2015 by N'eo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 I would agree that Afghanistan will not ever be a "workable" state. Not in our lifetimes at minimum, perhaps not ever. I will disagree on Iraq. And that is not ignoring the tribality of Iraqi society nor the distictions between the Shia Iraqis, the Sunni Iraqis, and the Kurds. A workable state was not fully sucessfully established (as events of the past 2 years amply demonstrate) but it was to a point that infrastructure was being rebuilt. Life was getting to what we'd consider normal - security was substantially restored. It would've taken a presence of the US there for probably another decade to fully establish the new Iraq but it could've gotten there. Not saying out soldiers would need to be going on patrols for the next decade but they should've still been there as normal life got reestablished. But we've had a presence in Japan and Germany for 70 years, we've been in Korea for over 60. We haven't fired too many shots in Japan nor Germany in the past 60. How would any of those have turned out without our support & presence. We continued to support Iraq, but without our presence the support was doomed to failure. There is some truth I believe with infrastructure. Hey, who doesn't like power and water. But the point remains. There was no viable political partnership to be had. Nouri Al-Maliki and the Daawas were the best that could be found. And the best that could be found was deeply flawed. That pre-dated Obama. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wjag Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 Interesting point raised by a military friend of mine: Hollande declares this an act of war. SInce 2009, France has been back as a full member of NATO. Will Hollande Invoke Article V? If he wants to save some money, he should Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 (edited) Interesting point raised by a military friend of mine: Hollande declares this an act of war. SInce 2009, France has been back as a full member of NATO. Will Hollande Invoke Article V? Good news. I've heard from former friends/co-workers in Paris as well. One wrote: "Alive and well. But with Nausea." Edited November 14, 2015 by X. Benedict Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 Never thought I'd ever see that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 (edited) Notre Dame. Edited November 14, 2015 by N'eo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 If we want to solve this problem, it's going to be really, really expensive, I think. I don't think there is a low-cost solution. This. I would agree that Afghanistan will not ever be a "workable" state. Not in our lifetimes at minimum, perhaps not ever. I will disagree on Iraq. And that is not ignoring the tribality of Iraqi society nor the distictions between the Shia Iraqis, the Sunni Iraqis, and the Kurds. A workable state was not fully sucessfully established (as events of the past 2 years amply demonstrate) but it was to a point that infrastructure was being rebuilt. Life was getting to what we'd consider normal - security was substantially restored. It would've taken a presence of the US there for probably another decade to fully establish the new Iraq but it could've gotten there. Not saying out soldiers would need to be going on patrols for the next decade but they should've still been there as normal life got reestablished. But we've had a presence in Japan and Germany for 70 years, we've been in Korea for over 60. We haven't fired too many shots in Japan nor Germany in the past 60. How would any of those have turned out without our support & presence. We continued to support Iraq, but without our presence the support was doomed to failure. And this. It always was going to be expensive. Our walking away raised that cost by at least 1 order of magnitude in $'s and exponentially in lives. The only positive I see coming from the Paris tragedy is that people seem to be understanding that this problem needs to be solved and that perhaps the will to solve if is now there. And this. A remarkable post that warms me. Just when I think I'm alone on an island, I see land close by. Who knew? If you have friends and colleagues in Paris, you're much closer to it than me. You'll understand better than most how it absolutely got into my blood in only 11 days. The city and people are life changing to visitors. Beauty and perspective everywhere. I've not experienced anything like it. I sat in Rodin's gardens and touched the tomb of Voltaire. My daughter and I stood at the window Louis XVI stood at with Marie Antoinette as the revolution came to his palace. We had lunch at Les Deux Magots, as did Simone de Beauvoir, Jean-Paul Sartre, Ernest Hemingway, Albert Camus, Pablo Picasso, James Joyce, Bertolt Brecht and Charles Sutherland. I stood over the desk where Hugo wrote Les Miserables and the typewriter where Heminway wrote The Sun Also Rises". A moveable feast, indeed. The French were gracious and welcoming. I'm not the same person. But, enough self indulgence. I'm happy those close to you are safe. I appreciate your balanced approach capturing hearts, minds, boots and bombs. Necessary, all, in my view. I'd look to fund and escrow the $Billion from the reluctant Sunni Saudis and Shia Iranians before I started. It is a fantastic city. Completely agree on the Saudis and their neighbors footing part of the bill. There is some truth I believe with infrastructure. Hey, who doesn't like power and water. But the point remains. There was no viable political partnership to be had. Nouri Al-Maliki and the Daawas were the best that could be found. And the best that could be found was deeply flawed. That pre-dated Obama. Well, "deeply flawed" doesn't necessarily equal "not viable." More importantly, with security restored, institutions being built, and Saddam gone, over time it's likely that honorable and effective leadership would've emerged. Never thought I'd ever see that. Awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 There is some truth I believe with infrastructure. Hey, who doesn't like power and water. But the point remains. There was no viable political partnership to be had. Nouri Al-Maliki and the Daawas were the best that could be found. And the best that could be found was deeply flawed. That pre-dated Obama. At the time, there wasn't. And it did predate him. But when we walked away we stopped the development of a legitimate & stable state and basically threw away all the lives and all the resources we'd already invested. Iraq was growing towards stability. And what Iraq would have eventually evolved to would not have looked like the US or Canada and most definitely there would have been many unhappy w/ how it evolved. But it surely was evolving to better than this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 (edited) Interesting point raised by a military friend of mine: Hollande declares this an act of war. SInce 2009, France has been back as a full member of NATO. Will Hollande Invoke Article V? Waaaay beyond my expertise, but that's not always stopped me before. I think the French "invoke" it, formally or not. In other words, the allies will be briefed and assistance will be provided. My reading (inspired by your post) is that assistance can take many/any form. As a result, NATO will assist as they may, and invoke only if they decide invoking makes a statement helpful to their cause. Invoking won't alter the assistance. NeoPhyte. Thinking further - I'd invoke Article V. Let the world know NATO means something. Invite the Russians, Chinese, Saudis and Iranians in. More than bombs and $billions, solidarity defeats this scourge. Edited November 14, 2015 by N'eo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 This. And this. And this. It is a fantastic city. Completely agree on the Saudis and their neighbors footing part of the bill. Well, "deeply flawed" doesn't necessarily equal "not viable." More importantly, with security restored, institutions being built, and Saddam gone, over time it's likely that honorable and effective leadership would've emerged. Awesome. Thank you for the bolded. Much better stated than my reply to that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 (edited) Completely agree on the Saudis and their neighbors footing part of the bill. Well, "deeply flawed" doesn't necessarily equal "not viable." When your best available partner was pro-Iranian, I think deeply flawed and not viable both apply. Edited November 14, 2015 by X. Benedict Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 (edited) I want to have a banquet with all of you. Can you imagine the waiter describing us to the cooks? Edited November 14, 2015 by N'eo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFIVEOH Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 I want to have a banquet with all of you. Can you imagine the waiter describing us to the cooks? I'm not big on TV dinners, can we go out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 I'm not big on TV dinners, can we go out? Yes ... To Paris .... Right Bank, of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 Yes ... To Paris .... Right Bank, of course. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLYNNSanity Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 Breaking: U.S Airstrikes kills top ISIS leader in Libya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dominator Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 Waaaay beyond my expertise, but that's not always stopped me before. I think the French "invoke" it, formally or not. In other words, the allies will be briefed and assistance will be provided. My reading (inspired by your post) is that assistance can take many/any form. As a result, NATO will assist as they may, and invoke only if they decide invoking makes a statement helpful to their cause. Invoking won't alter the assistance. NeoPhyte. Thinking further - I'd invoke Article V. Let the world know NATO means something. Invite the Russians, Chinese, Saudis and Iranians in. More than bombs and $billions, solidarity defeats this scourge. Agreed. A remarkable post that warms me. Just when I think I'm alone on an island, I see land close by. Who knew? *snip* I appreciate your balanced approach capturing hearts, minds, boots and bombs. Necessary, all, in my view. I'd look to fund and escrow the $Billion from the reluctant Sunni Saudis and Shia Iranians before I started. Double agreed, although I would like for the US to take a surgeon's approach. Attack ISIS with a scalpel, take them out from the neck up. I'm thinking drones. Rain from above. Not a downpour, but a calculated mist. There are about 17 million people left in Syria and 33 million in Iraq. CIA estimates there are 20-30,000 ISIS members. Let's go with 30,000. We are fighting the 0.06%. Need to be precise in order to avoid rupturing any brain arteries (innocent casualties). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 I think this idea that we were really successful in Iraq, and then lost or squandered our advantage is flawed. It assumes we had a workable political partnership inside Iraq. No. We never did. Our military can kick the tar out of any combatant. But anyone that thinks there was a workable state to be had in Iraq or Afghanistan is ignoring sectarian And tribal divides that predate our own national history. Any chance of a workable state was lost when Maliki, formerly granted political asylum in Iran, decided to exclude the Sunni minority in establishing a new government. Maliki, more than anyone else, made it easy for Iraqi military and police personnel to defect to and help arm and organize ISIS within Iraqi borders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woods-racer Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 (edited) Breaking: U.S Airstrikes kills top ISIS leader in Libya Reminds me of a fellow called Doolittle, with no moral victory. Edited November 14, 2015 by Woods-Racer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLYNNSanity Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 Reminds me of a fellow called Doolittle, with no moral victory. pretty much Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 We actually agree on the major issues. But and it's a big BUT, no one was going to agree on the money. We would have to increase military spending buy 12% ( give or take) to support what is post war occupation in the ME. Sadly the loudest wheels squeaking at the time where for post war exit strategy, not post war occupation strategy. The whole of government would have rally around the post war success and it's cost of WWII and Korea. As far as local order being established. It would have come. We didn't even give it a chance. How much treasure has Iraq cost us as it is? Far, far more than the idiots who proclaimed the Iraq war would be paid for by Iraqi oil, ever predicted. I could argue we have spent and will continue to spend more because Rummy, Wolfie and the boys did not heed better advice at the time and decided on a half-assed approach to begin with. Money was never the problem with that administration. Never thought I'd ever see that. Why? France has a rich history as our ally. Good chance our country wouldn't exist without her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 Breaking: U.S Airstrikes kills top ISIS leader in Libya Well, nfreeman, there goes your theory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabel79 Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 Why? France has a rich history as our ally. Good chance our country wouldn't exist without her. I'd go so far as to say that we would not under any circumstances have won independence without France. It was France's navy that kept the British presence here small, French military expertise and indeed "boots on the ground" that turned the war in our favor. Rochambeaux took more troops to the field at Yorktown than Washington did, and of course there was Lafayette. Why the narrative has changed so much over the years I can only surmise, but there should be no doubt that there is no other nation so closely aligned with us, and yes it's cut both ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted November 14, 2015 Report Share Posted November 14, 2015 Why? France has a rich history as our ally. Good chance our country wouldn't exist without her. Ask anyone you know who's graduated from West Point in the last 25 years what they think about France. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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