Future Sabres: Identifying the core

[SwampD]

Sabres fans have been told to be patient for over a decade now. I will fault no one for getting prickly about not seeing wins. I guess we as Sabres fans were so far down in the depths that we're now supposed to be happy about merely "not trying to lose" anymore.

[inkman]

Sabres fans have been told to be patient for over a decade now. I will fault no one for getting prickly about not seeing wins. I guess we as Sabres fans were so far down in the depths that we're now supposed to be happy about merely "not trying to lose" anymore.

 

I just think that anyone watching the games would be encouraged.  Yeah losing sucks.  But this ain't your uncle Teds Sabres.  They are playing well.  It's just not quite there yet for them. 

[sicknfla]

I have been probably the biggest bitcher about.......pretty much everything. That being said I don't get how more of you are not concerned with beyond looking at the obvious. Eichel, Samson, and O'Reilly are great building blocks. I think he rolled the dice on Bogo and Kane. On D you have Risto (and he is average besides what a lot of you want to think) and Pysyk who are long term guys. McCabe could go either way. Ennis and Girgs are two solid guys. The other guys are fill ins.

 

You have a goalie that is a huge question mark. You have Moulson and Gionta who figure to not be a factor when this team becomes legit.

 

My concern is not how we play right now. It annoys the hell out of me that we still are watching a loosing team but it is what it is.

 

My question is this: how does Murray acquire the remaining pieces (and there are MANY)? I look at this team long term and i just don't see the building blocks to this Cup run many of you think is on the horizon. I have stated this many times but I will say it again - I just don't think after Pominville, Vanek, Miller, Ott, Myers, Stafford, McNabb, Zadorov, Grigorenko, Armia, Lemieux, 2 1st round picks, numerous 2 round picks (and i am doing this off the top of my head) that we remotely maximized what we had to start with.

 

Kane, Eichel, Samson, Bogo, Risto, Ennis, and Girgs are pretty much our team. Good start with a few sure hits and a few big question marks. The remainder are what they are. Our prospects a are nothing special and we no longer can sit here and count on draft picks.

 

Sorry just not feeling all this "just wait until January" stuff.

Edited October 25, 2015 by sicknfla

[Hoss]

Sick - As I said in another thread, you can't have aces in every position.

 

Long term they have (just throwing players together, not forming lines):

 

Kane - Eichel - XXX

Ennis - O'Reilly - Reinhart

Foligno - Girgensons XXX

Deslauriers - Larsson - XXX

 

XXX - Risto

XXX - Bogo

McCabe - Pysyk

 

Lehner - XXX

 

Guys in the system that could fill some holes: Baptiste (RW), Bailey (RW), Fasching (RW), Olofsson (RW), Guhle (D), Florentino (D), Martin (D), Ullmark (G), Makarov (G)

 

Obviously there are some injury question marks (mainly just Bogo and Kane) and a few that are still somewhat of talent question marks (McCabe, Larsson)... But that's a great start. The team still has extra draft picks and a ton of money to spend. The great teams didn't put it all together at once. This team still has a ton of time to piece together a full roster of players. They're still set up well to pay the guys they have while filling holes with younger players on cheaper contracts.

[qwksndmonster]

Sabres fans have been told to be patient for over a decade now. I will fault no one for getting prickly about not seeing wins. I guess we as Sabres fans were so far down in the depths that we're now supposed to be happy about merely "not trying to lose" anymore.

I hate the Devils and losing. I know our players feel the same. It's really frustrating to watch them play so hard and not get rewarded with wins.

 

But I don't think anybody is long term worried about this team. I don't think...

[sicknfla]

Sick - As I said in another thread, you can't have aces in every position.

 

Long term they have (just throwing players together, not forming lines):

 

Kane - Eichel - XXX

Ennis - O'Reilly - Reinhart

Foligno - Girgensons XXX

Deslauriers - Larsson - XXX

 

XXX - Risto

XXX - Bogo

McCabe - Pysyk

 

Lehner - XXX

 

Guys in the system that could fill some holes: Baptiste (RW), Bailey (RW), Fasching (RW), Olofsson (RW), Guhle (D), Florentino (D), Martin (D), Ullmark (G), Makarov (G)

 

Obviously there are some injury question marks (mainly just Bogo and Kane) and a few that are still somewhat of talent question marks (McCabe, Larsson)... But that's a great start. The team still has extra draft picks and a ton of money to spend. The great teams didn't put it all together at once. This team still has a ton of time to piece together a full roster of players. They're still set up well to pay the guys they have while filling holes with younger players on cheaper contracts.

Thanks Hoss - I came in off the ledge. Then I checked the Bills score (working today thank God). I am back on the ledge. Got anything for me regarding them?

[Hoss]

Thanks Hoss - I came in off the ledge. Then I checked the Bills score (working today thank God). I am back on the ledge. Got anything for me regarding them?

A lot of planes get lost over the Atlantic Ocean.

[LGR4GM]

Relax.  This isn't football the season lasts longer than the opening 10 games.

[Doohicksie]

I've been thoroughly disappointed with Sabres fans this season so far. There was no way a team turns over 3/4 of its roster and it just all of a sudden gels.

 

:unsure:

 

Sorry... kind of lost it last night.

The early season seems to have left a lot of fans wanting more. It's understandable with how the last two seasons went down and the amount of turnover this roster saw. However, it simply isn't and never was going to happen overnight.

The path this franchise went down has been grueling and something they've never done before. It's seen a ton of results in other cities, so why not here? I anticipate it'll turn out to be the right move and bring success this city has never seen from its hockey team. 

 

How long will that take? Well, let's look at the teams everybody brings up when talking about this strategy: Pittsburgh and Chicago. 

 

Chicago Blackhawks

High draft picks: Jonathan Toews (2nd - 2006), Patrick Kane (1st - 2007) 

Points by season prior to Cup: 65 (drafted Toews), 71 (drafted Kane), 88, 104 (lost WCF), 112 (won Cup)

Key moves: Hit big on Duncan Keith at 54th overall and Niklas Hjalmarsson at 108th; acquired Patrick Sharp and Marian Hossa to supplement youth

 

Pittsburgh Penguins

High draft picks: Marc-Andre Fleury (1st - 2003), Evgeni Malkin (2nd - 2004), Sidney Crosby (1st - 2005), Jordan Staal (2nd - 2006)

Points by season prior to Cup: 58 (drafted Malkin), lockout (drafted Crosby), 58 (drafted Staal), 105 (lost 1st rd), 102 (lost SCF), 99 (won SC)

Key moves: Drafted high

 

There's also the Red Wings model:  Draft high, get your perennial captain, tap into the Euro market for players, win the Cup 14 years later.  A tried and true formula.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Robins Egg

[X. Benedict]

Good news: the forward lines are strong, and we have centers.

Bad news: we have half a blue line and no starting goalie.

 

This is still a project.

[TrueBlueGED]

Sabres fans have been told to be patient for over a decade now. I will fault no one for getting prickly about not seeing wins. I guess we as Sabres fans were so far down in the depths that we're now supposed to be happy about merely "not trying to lose" anymore.

I think it's complete nonsense to take out frustrations associated with past teams on this team. That simple.

[That Aud Smell]

I'm not saying we should be giving everybody a free pass, but again: the sky isn't falling, it's just under construction.

Good news: the forward lines are strong, and we have centers.

Bad news: we have half a blue line and no starting goalie.

 

This is still a project.

 

I really appreciate this perspective. 10 internet points to Hoss for proffering that metaphor.

 

It's not entirely apt, but it keeps coming to mind: My oldest plays in a band, of sorts. I went to watch them the third time they'd gotten together to work out the two songs they're trying to master. There was a lot of good stuff there -- they have two virtuosos among them (one of them is not my kid) -- but, on balance, they were not very good as a group. But I enjoyed watching them work through the songs for the better part of 90 minutes. It was actually enjoyable.

 

Anyway. I'm not going to borrow trouble. If the team is spinning its wheels 2 seasons from now? That will be the time for torches and pitch forks (and angry crowd murmurs).

 

I've liked a lot of what I've seen so far, even while being disappointed that we're not closer to .500.

[pi2000]

The thing about Chicago is that their 3rd/4th lines were just so much better than any other 3rd/4th line.  Guys like Shaw, Teravainen, Versteeg, and Bickell played huge roles in their Cup runs.   Their entire D were above average skaters with speed (Keith, Seabrook, Oduya, Hjalmarsson, Leddy).   Always first on the puck on dump ins with the ability to carry the puck up ice with ease.    

 

IMO that's the biggest issue Buffalo has at the moment.   speed on defense.... they don't have it... at all.    Weber, Franson and Gorges have beer league level foot speed, those 3 are absolutely killing this team in their own end.   Ristolainen isn't particulariy fast although he's improving, McCabe isn't particularily fast, neither is Pysyk.     That said, I like where Murray is headed, he trades for Bogosian and drafts Guhle, both have plenty of speed.   I wouldn't be surprised to see guys like Pysyk and/or McCabe moved as part of a larger deal.       

[qwksndmonster]

The thing about Chicago is that their 3rd/4th lines were just so much better than any other 3rd/4th line.  Guys like Shaw, Teravainen, Versteeg, and Bickell played huge roles in their Cup runs.   Their entire D were above average skaters with speed (Keith, Seabrook, Oduya, Hjalmarsson, Leddy).   Always first on the puck on dump ins with the ability to carry the puck up ice with ease.    

 

IMO that's the biggest issue Buffalo has at the moment.   speed on defense.... they don't have it... at all.    Weber, Franson and Gorges have beer league level foot speed, those 3 are absolutely killing this team in their own end.   Ristolainen isn't particulariy fast although he's improving, McCabe isn't particularily fast, neither is Pysyk.     That said, I like where Murray is headed, he trades for Bogosian and drafts Guhle, both have plenty of speed.   I wouldn't be surprised to see guys like Pysyk and/or McCabe moved as part of a larger deal.       

Chicago won their most recent cup by playing their top 4 D as often as possible.  So weaknesses on the blue line can be hidden (if you're the best hockey dynasty since the Oilers).

[3putt]

The thing about Chicago is that their 3rd/4th lines were just so much better than any other 3rd/4th line.  Guys like Shaw, Teravainen, Versteeg, and Bickell played huge roles in their Cup runs.   Their entire D were above average skaters with speed (Keith, Seabrook, Oduya, Hjalmarsson, Leddy).   Always first on the puck on dump ins with the ability to carry the puck up ice with ease.    

 

IMO that's the biggest issue Buffalo has at the moment.   speed on defense.... they don't have it... at all.    Weber, Franson and Gorges have beer league level foot speed, those 3 are absolutely killing this team in their own end.   Ristolainen isn't particulariy fast although he's improving, McCabe isn't particularily fast, neither is Pysyk.     That said, I like where Murray is headed, he trades for Bogosian and drafts Guhle, both have plenty of speed.   I wouldn't be surprised to see guys like Pysyk and/or McCabe moved as part of a larger deal.       

Pysyk and McCabe are the two fastest skaters on this defense.  Faster than Bogo.

[Stoner]

SabreSpace likes to overthink stuff. Why can't you be disappointed AND patient? They're 2-7. They still can't score. Expectations were reasonably higher than this.

[qwksndmonster]

SabreSpace likes to overthink stuff. Why can't you be disappointed AND patient? They're 2-7. They still can't score. Expectations were reasonably higher than this.

I can handle my disappointment because of how fun the games have been to watch.  Hell, I went out of my way to watch the 7-2 loss two days later just to see our team some more.  I'm pretty easily amused by hockey, though...

[SwampD]

I think it's complete nonsense to take out frustrations associated with past teams on this team. That simple.

I think it's complete nonsense to expect people not to.

 

I'm happy where this team is right now. Heck, just being able to root for a win, and not feeling guilty when they do, is a step in the right direction.

 

A lot of the problems that they have right now I see as being problems of familiarity. We see a lot of passes and shots that are just a hair off that will start to connect as the players really get to know each other on the ice. It's going to really fun to watch.

 

But this whole process has sucked, and while most here get where were are in it, there are many fans that watch each season in a vacuum. All they see is yet another lost season and I totaly get their frustration.

[woods-racer]

SabreSpace likes to overthink stuff. Why can't you be disappointed AND patient? They're 2-7. They still can't score. Expectations were reasonably higher than this.

 

It's not the losing. It's how they are losing.

I expected the Montreal game, but I also expected it to be a 7-5 or 7-6 game with a whirl-wind finish. So yes, my expectations where higher, but not in wins-n-loses. The expectation is that we don't have to watch a bend but don't break, keep it close, hope for a lucky bounce in order to win game. That we are getting.

I'm just not seeing enough of the Jack/Sam/Tyler/Evander magic that makes me feel my expectations are being met. 

[qwksndmonster]

Woods, I don't think Evander is ever going to be that guy to give us "magic" on a line.  He's more like a war hammer.

[Weave]

I think it's complete nonsense to expect people not to.

 

I'm happy where this team is right now. Heck, just being able to root for a win, and not feeling guilty when they do, is a step in the right direction.

 

A lot of the problems that they have right now I see as being problems of familiarity. We see a lot of passes and shots that are just a hair off that will start to connect as the players really get to know each other on the ice. It's going to really fun to watch.

 

But this whole process has sucked, and while most here get where were are in it, there are many fans that watch each season in a vacuum. All they see is yet another lost season and I totaly get their frustration.

 

When it comes right down to it, most fans watch each individual game in a vacuum.  What am I seeing right now, and is it what I am hoping/expecting to see?

It's not the losing. It's how they are losing.

I expected the Montreal game, but I also expected it to be a 7-5 or 7-6 game with a whirl-wind finish. So yes, my expectations where higher, but not in wins-n-loses. The expectation is that we don't have to watch a bend but don't break, keep it close, hope for a lucky bounce in order to win game. That we are getting.

I'm just not seeing enough of the Jack/Sam/Tyler/Evander magic that makes me feel my expectations are being met. 

 

I know I was hoping to see more flash and bang out of Jack and Evander.  Am I disappointed by either?  Hell no.  But I was hoping for more moments like the ones I am seeing in clips coming out of Edmonton lately.

[Doohicksie]

Pysyk and McCabe are the two fastest skaters on this defense.  Faster than Bogo.

 

I was thinking that too.  Where Bogo has an advantage is that he's played in the NHL longer so his positioning and anticipation are a little better so the speed is more effective.  I see Pysyk and McCabe getting there as the season progresses though.  I like them quite a bit as a pair.

[3putt]

I was thinking that too.  Where Bogo has an advantage is that he's played in the NHL longer so his positioning and anticipation are a little better so the speed is more effective.  I see Pysyk and McCabe getting there as the season progresses though.  I like them quite a bit as a pair.

plus when he gets there he usually makes more noise so is much more noticeable.

[Doohicksie]

plus when he gets there he usually makes more noise so is much more noticeable.

 

...and frankly I'm okay with quiet (but effective) defensemen.

[Hoss]

I really appreciate this perspective. 10 internet points to Hoss for proffering that metaphor.

 

It's not entirely apt, but it keeps coming to mind: My oldest plays in a band, of sorts. I went to watch them the third time they'd gotten together to work out the two songs they're trying to master. There was a lot of good stuff there -- they have two virtuosos among them (one of them is not my kid) -- but, on balance, they were not very good as a group. But I enjoyed watching them work through the songs for the better part of 90 minutes. It was actually enjoyable.

 

Anyway. I'm not going to borrow trouble. If the team is spinning its wheels 2 seasons from now? That will be the time for torches and pitch forks (and angry crowd murmurs).

 

I've liked a lot of what I've seen so far, even while being disappointed that we're not closer to .500.

Well said. I am giving this team two seasons of "free passes" as far as wins and losses go. I want to see progress. Inidividually I'm still willing to get out the pitchforks for guys that flat out underperform or hold the team back.

If they start winning then that will likely change and my expectations will rise. But I'm thinking Murray and Bylsma both deserve two full seasons before their performance begins to be questioned.