Reinhart: Fewer minutes in NHL or more minutes in AHL?

[Taro T]

UNLESS..... Ekblad was salted away in Rochester (or juniors or whatever).  If GMTM really was intentionally tanking, Ekblad wouldn't have prevented it.

Other than keeping Pysyk in the A, there was nothing that TM did OVERTLY to ensure the tank was a success. And even that could be argued that it wasn't a non-competitive decision. He would have needed to have been overt to send Ekblad back to junior. W/ Ekblad, they're hoping in hindsight to finish 4th from the bottom because the Desert Dogs would have snuck it out.

[Doohicksie]

Other than keeping Pysyk in the A, there was nothing that TM did OVERTLY to ensure the tank was a success.

 

[WannabeGM]

Other than keeping Pysyk in the A, there was nothing that TM did OVERTLY to ensure the tank was a success. And even that could be argued that it wasn't a non-competitive decision. He would have needed to have been overt to send Ekblad back to junior. W/ Ekblad, they're hoping in hindsight to finish 4th from the bottom because the Desert Dogs would have snuck it out.

What about trading Myers and Stafford for an Injured Kane?  In my eyes, that was more damning to last season.

[Taro T]

What about trading Myers and Stafford for an Injured Kane?  In my eyes, that was more damning to last season.

They'd just lost 17 of 19. How could a move that brought back a player of Bogosian's level make that worse? (Hint, it couldn't & it didn't. ;))

 

That brought a healthy & useful Bogosian back in place of Myers - no overt tanking there. On the contrary, that could have improved team chemistry.

 

Stafford had 5 goals at that time since the 1st of December. Many here would say getting rid of him was addition by subtraction. An injured Kane was just about as useful in getting W's last year as Stafford was. :)

[TrueBlueGED]

Now that made me laugh quite hard. Well done.

[qwksndmonster]

Best use of Nolanmeme of all time.

[Taro T]

What, you think keeping a Jack Adams winner behind the bench and giving him a full season to bring in his staff and systems is OVERTLY supporting the tank? :o

[Doohicksie]

What, you think keeping a Jack Adams winner behind the bench and giving him a full season to bring in his staff and systems is OVERTLY supporting the tank? :o

It depends on the Jack Adams winner.  :flirt:

[X. Benedict]

What, you think keeping a Jack Adams winner behind the bench and giving him a full season to bring in his staff and systems is OVERTLY supporting the tank? :o

I think GMTM had a lot of confidence in his coach. 

[pi2000]

I think it's good he's still up with the big club. He's sweating, busting butt and travelling with a group of guys he'll be playing with for years. Build that chemistry by travelling and fighting through the tough battles that this season is going to present. He's not taking away from the team right now at all. Build that companionship and that cohesiveness that only suffering a struggling together can bring. The talent on this team that's been assembled is absolutely incredible. This is going to be the toughest year for them for the next 5-6 years. The more cohesive of a unit the core forms, the more they trust each other and know what each other is thinking, the better. I think that's the best thing for Samson right now. Not the TOI, but him growing as a man, bleeding, and fighting with the group of guys that day in and day out have his back on and off the ice, that's what's important.

 

Disagree.   TOI is absolutely the most critical ascpect to his development at his young age.   He needs to be put in all situations, PP, PK, end of game, D-zone faceoffs, etc... Only giving him 4th (or even 3rd) line duties will stunt his growth in the NHL.    Give him 20+ minutes a night in the AHL playing all game situations with skilled players while he continues to improve his board play and strength on the puck.  

[3putt]

Disagree.   TOI is absolutely the most critical ascpect to his development at his young age.   He needs to be put in all situations, PP, PK, end of game, D-zone faceoffs, etc... Only giving him 4th (or even 3rd) line duties will stunt his growth in the NHL.    Give him 20+ minutes a night in the AHL playing all game situations with skilled players while he continues to improve his board play and strength on the puck.  

Disagree with this.  Learning to play with NHL players is the most important aspect.  He has played in all those situations; pk,pp etc., He excelled at the WJC's in those areas.  Doing so against the AHL players is less valuable than being part of the big club and learning what it takes to play consistently at that level.  The practice time alone at this level is invaluable. 

[TrueBlueGED]

I think the value of ice time really depends on the player. Somebody like Zadorov could have used more time because he was frequently over committing, out of position and generally not reading things well. I think the AHL would have benefitted him a lot. Reinhart has none of those problems--he's simply getting knocked around and getting used to NHL speed. He's not going to learn to adjust to those things in the AHL. In my view, 10 NHL minutes are better than 20 AHL minutes for Reinhart .

[Derrico]

Other than keeping Pysyk in the A, there was nothing that TM did OVERTLY to ensure the tank was a success. And even that could be argued that it wasn't a non-competitive decision. He would have needed to have been overt to send Ekblad back to junior. W/ Ekblad, they're hoping in hindsight to finish 4th from the bottom because the Desert Dogs would have snuck it out.

To me, trading his hot goalie was a tank related move.  Then his backup gets hot?  Yep, let's trade his ass too.  Loved the moves, but they were 100% tanking moves.  Don't give me the trading expiring contracts excuse either, what did we end up with, a conditional 3rd round pick or two?

[qwksndmonster]

Pi, how exactly does playing a limited role stunt growth? I understand from a "Grigorenko on the 4th line with grinders" perspective, but even our 4th line has guys that know how to play real hockey.

 

Good stuff Blue.

[Taro T]

It depends on the Jack Adams winner.  :flirt:

True. But it is difficult for someone to shout "you're losing on purpose" and get a casual observer to say "yup, you are" when you can say can come back w/ "are you kidding, we've got the BEST :rolleyes: motivational coach in all of hockey; he won the Jack Adams; he nearly beat Canada w/ friggin' Latvia; & besides the blue collar fans here LOVE him; no way are we tankin'; you took TB's quote out of context."

 

Remember, there were people here that honestly believed Nolan deserved another season behind the bench.

[qwksndmonster]

True. But it is difficult for someone to shout "you're losing on purpose" and get a casual observer to say "yup, you are" when you can say can come back w/ "are you kidding, we've got the BEST :rolleyes: motivational coach in all of hockey; he won the Jack Adams; he nearly beat Canada w/ friggin' Latvia; & besides the blue collar fans here LOVE him; no way are we tankin'; you took TB's quote out of context."

 

Remember, there were people here that honestly believed Nolan deserved another season behind the bench.

I remember JJ and maybe d4rk?

 

I don't really consider either of them "people" persay...

[Taro T]

I think GMTM had a lot of confidence in his coach.

 

  

 

He ABSOLUTELY had confidence in him.

 

To me, trading his hot goalie was a tank related move.  Then his backup gets hot?  Yep, let's trade his ass too.  Loved the moves, but they were 100% tanking moves.  Don't give me the trading expiring contracts excuse either, what did we end up with, a conditional 3rd round pick or two?

Everything was designed to give the Sabres a chance (a very good chance) at bottoming out. My point was, w/ the exception of keeping Pysyk down on the farm until there were absolutely no D that could possibly be brought up in his stead, all the moves could be explained as hockey moves that weren't overly supposed to explode in the face like an ACME Rocket Skate tended to do to Wile. E..

 

Even the goalie trades, yeah, they look suspicious, but the next guy ups his save %age the instant he gets thrown between the pipes. Meszaros - "yeah, he stunk since getting injured in Filly, but we think he's healthy again finally and did you see him when he pkayed for me in Otterland?" And on & on.

[LGR4GM]

I think the value of ice time really depends on the player. Somebody like Zadorov could have used more time because he was frequently over committing, out of position and generally not reading things well. I think the AHL would have benefitted him a lot. Reinhart has none of those problems--he's simply getting knocked around and getting used to NHL speed. He's not going to learn to adjust to those things in the AHL. In my view, 10 NHL minutes are better than 20 AHL minutes for Reinhart .

I would like to hug you

[dudacek]

Disagree.   TOI is absolutely the most critical ascpect to his development at his young age.   He needs to be put in all situations, PP, PK, end of game, D-zone faceoffs, etc... Only giving him 4th (or even 3rd) line duties will stunt his growth in the NHL.    Give him 20+ minutes a night in the AHL playing all game situations with skilled players while he continues to improve his board play and strength on the puck.  

 

Where is the evidence for this?

I looked at players who were top three picks and offensive centres to see how they were handled.

 

A number of them, like Crosby and Eichel got to play a lot and in key situations right away.

Others, like Henrik Sedin, Joe Thornton, Patrick Marleau, Eric Staal and Tyler Seguin got used like Reinhart has so far in their rookie years.

Jason Spezza and Kyle Turris were the only two I could find who got sent to the minors for seasoning.

 

I think you might be wrong.

[dudacek]

Interesting Reinhart gets his game with the most ice time on the road in a tight match.

 

I'm starting to see Bylsma does not have traditional lines. He has pair 1A OReilly/Ennis and pair 1B Eichel/Kane.

Every one else seems like a situational spare part, given the opponent and the game situation.

[X. Benedict]

Interesting Reinhart gets his game with the most ice time on the road in a tight match.

 

I'm starting to see Bylsma does not have traditional lines. He has pair 1A OReilly/Ennis and pair 1B Eichel/Kane.

Every one else seems like a situational spare part, given the opponent and the game situation.

 

I love the idea. It really makes it harder to match up against Buffalo in road games (as compared to the 3 traditional lines). It is easy to take out a single line, but at least force teams to match and out-think you. 

[pi2000]

Pi, how exactly does playing a limited role stunt growth? I understand from a "Grigorenko on the 4th line with grinders" perspective, but even our 4th line has guys that know how to play real hockey.

 

Good stuff Blue.

 

As a former player (college then florida league in the early 90's), in my experience, if you want your skill guys to develop as skill guys, they need to play with similarly skilled players... guys who think the game in the same way.    Playing with 4th line grinders is fine, but I'm afraid that at an impressionable young age this will develop Sam into a grinders mentality.     Not what you want from the #2 pick overall.

Disagree with this.  Learning to play with NHL players is the most important aspect.  He has played in all those situations; pk,pp etc., He excelled at the WJC's in those areas.  Doing so against the AHL players is less valuable than being part of the big club and learning what it takes to play consistently at that level.  The practice time alone at this level is invaluable. 

 

Sam is a skill player, a point producer, he needs to play with similarly skilled players to keep his game sharp.   The way he thinks the game and see's the ice is what makes him valuable.    We can see he competes hard, his work ethic and hockey sense is NHL level, however his strength on the puck and along the wall is not.   If he's not producing points, then he's not doing what he was brought here to do.   Let him keep his point production up while he gains strength in the AHL.    It's not like he's going to back to juniors where he's playing against teenagers.... the AHL is a tough league, ideal for Sam to develop what he needs to be productive at the next level.    He can play with offensively skilled guys like Bailey and Baptiste, get 20min a game and take mass quantities of steroids.

[Taro T]

As a former player (college then florida league in the early 90's), in my experience, if you want your skill guys to develop as skill guys, they need to play with similarly skilled players... guys who think the game in the same way.    Playing with 4th line grinders is fine, but I'm afraid that at an impressionable young age this will develop Sam into a grinders mentality.     Not what you want from the #2 pick overall.

Yep. Playing on a 4th line sure did screw up the kid the B's took 2nd overall then traded for Loui Eriksson. /sarcasm

[pi2000]

Where is the evidence for this?

I looked at players who were top three picks and offensive centres to see how they were handled.

 

A number of them, like Crosby and Eichel got to play a lot and in key situations right away.

Others, like Henrik Sedin, Joe Thornton, Patrick Marleau, Eric Staal and Tyler Seguin got used like Reinhart has so far in their rookie years.

Jason Spezza and Kyle Turris were the only two I could find who got sent to the minors for seasoning.

 

I think you might be wrong.

 

I look at guys like Gustav Nyquist and Tomas Tatar for the Red WIngs.   Not top 3 picks, but skill guys who put up big numbers immediately in the AHL.   Could they have played 4th line in Detroit earlier in their careers?   Yes, but Detroit was smart and kept them in the AHL while they built up their strength to the NHL level while playing with similarly skilled players.    They jumped into the NHL and made an immediate impact in their first full seasons.    Playing against AHL talent didn't diminish their skills, rather it allowed them to maintain their skill level while building themselves up physically for the NHL game.   IMO, Reinhart would benefit from another season in the AHL if he's only going to get 4th line minutes in the NHL.    

[pi2000]

Yep. Playing on a 4th line sure did screw up the kid the B's took 2nd overall then traded for Loui Eriksson. /sarcasm

 

 

Not a valid comparison.

 

In his rookie season (the year he was drafted), Seguin was playing on the third line (with Blake Wheeler) for the eventual Stanley Cup winning team, not 4th line for a team coming off one of the worst season's in NHL history.

 

In Seguin's second season he put up 29 goals and 38 assists... Reinhart won't sniff anywhere near those numbers in this his second year.