Game Discussion thread GDT: Columbus @ Buffalo 7pm EDT 10/02/15

[Thorner]

The islanders gave up picks and prospects. Nothing off their NHL roster. You're probably right that we're developing and not expecting much this year. I'm just saying if that kind of deal is there make it, instead of someone else doing it. We can both compete for the playoffs and develop players. They're not mutually exclusive. Now are those kind of deals out there? Probably not, but if they are I want to be involved and not settle for what we currently have on D.

 

I agree with this, and I think it's pretty much Murray's view as well.

[X. Benedict]

FYI: Pysyk.

he's the new Pommenstein.

[wjag]

he's the new Pommenstein.

 

No that's Rheinhardt

[X. Benedict]

No that's Rheinhardt

Wasn't that a pro wrestler in the 80's? 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Wasn't that a pro wrestler in the 80's? 

 

No, no, no X.  You've got it all wrong.

 

You are thinking of Jim "The Anvil" Neidhart, of the infamous Hart Foundation.

[X. Benedict]

No, no, no X.  You've got it all wrong.

 

You are thinking of Jim "The Anvil" Neidhart, of the infamous Hart Foundation.

 

Yeah. That's the one. He was like an evil Bob Backlund. 

[Thorner]

Bret screwed Bret.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Thorny

[WildCard]

The islanders gave up picks and prospects. Nothing off their NHL roster. You're probably right that we're developing and not expecting much this year. I'm just saying if that kind of deal is there make it, instead of someone else doing it. We can both compete for the playoffs and develop players. They're not mutually exclusive. Now are those kind of deals out there? Probably not, but if they are I want to be involved and not settle for what we currently have on D.

The point is the Islanders made that move because they were poised for a serious Cup run, so thy mortgaged their future. Not only are we not in that position, but doing so, in what would be a miserably failed attempt at making it to the second round of the playoffs, would cost significant draft picks I want to keep. How did that Islanders trade work out for them by the way? Edited October 4, 2015 by WildCard

[Thwomp!]

The point is the Islanders made that move because they were poised for a serious Cup run, so thy mortgaged their future. Not only are we not in that position, but doing so, in what would be a miserably failed attempt at making it to the second round of the playoffs, would cost significant draft picks I want to keep. How did that Islanders trade work out for them by the way?

In my view it didn't cost the Islanders much at all.  We have the assets thanks to the tank.  The Islanders made it to game 7 of the first round of the playoffs.  You offer me that now and I'm on board.  You may want to watch the defensemen we currently have slated to play, but others are less excited about that prospect, and you'll likely change your mind on that by this time next week.

[dudacek]

Leddy went for equivalent of Jake McCabe Andrei Makarov and Bobby Sanguinetti

Boychuk for two seconds.

[beerme1]

I'll be a bit disappointed in our GM if he's idle while we waste another year.

 

 

 

Are you kidding?

[TrueBlueGED]

I'd love to pull off what the Islanders did last year, but that really doesn't mean a whole lot, since I don't see any teams in the situation the Bruins and Hawks were in with comparatively attractive defensemen to target. Detroit and somebody like Kyle Quincey is the best I can come up with. I'd be happy to pick up Quincey for the left side, but he's not someone I want long-term like Bochuk and Leddy. 

 

Rather than saying we should do what the Islanders did, can anyone actually come up with a situation and players this season which are comparable and might make it possible? 

[nfreeman]

Leddy went for equivalent of Jake McCabe Andrei Makarov and Bobby Sanguinetti

Boychuk for two seconds.

 

 

Thanks for doing the legwork -- "mortgaged their future" seemed like a pretty hyperbolic statement, but I didn't get around to checking it out.

 

Obviously, the Sabres would make those deals in a heartbeat -- but they don't come along very often.

[WildCard]

In my view it didn't cost the Islanders much at all. We have the assets thanks to the tank. The Islanders made it to game 7 of the first round of the playoffs. You offer me that now and I'm on board. You may want to watch the defensemen we currently have slated to play, but others are less excited about that prospect, and you'll likely change your mind on that by this time next week.

The Vanek trade was one of the worst trades in the last decade; they did not make it to the playoffs that year, they were a bottom 5 team.

 

I've seen our defense in the preseason, I'm well aware of what they are. Our assets from the tank are already used, unless you count a handful of 2nd a later round picks, and that's not brining much to the table. Our trading cupboard of pieces that aren't a major part of our team moving forward is very bare

 

 

The whole point of the tank was long term and meaningful success, not a 1st round game 7 loss.

Edited October 5, 2015 by WildCard

[Thwomp!]

Are you kidding?

That sentence you quoted is quite out of context by itself.  The full context that I said was that I'd be disappointed if a deal to improve our defensive personnel was out there similar to what the Islanders did, that I would be disappointed in someone else doing it and not us, when we could certainly try to improve this year and not stand pat with what we have.  It doesn't have to be a wasted year, and it doesn't have to be as much of a potentially wasted year if we make a good move or two.   I think most would agree that where we are now on defense is not ideal.

 

 

I'd love to pull off what the Islanders did last year, but that really doesn't mean a whole lot, since I don't see any teams in the situation the Bruins and Hawks were in with comparatively attractive defensemen to target. Detroit and somebody like Kyle Quincey is the best I can come up with. I'd be happy to pick up Quincey for the left side, but he's not someone I want long-term like Bochuk and Leddy. 

 

Rather than saying we should do what the Islanders did, can anyone actually come up with a situation and players this season which are comparable and might make it possible? 

I was having trouble finding any possibilities, that's why I opened it up to the professionals here.  :)  It's very likely that the Islanders circumstance was just right place, right time.  Teams certainly are better as a whole in relation to the cap this year.  We seem to be in the right place at the wrong time (wrong place at the right time?) for any moves like that.  There's also the very real possibility that we're not looking to make any moves and we're content with a "developmental" year.  I'm also advocating that we can improve personnel and still "develop" this year, since we're talking about replacing Coco and/or Donovan, (I like Donoco as a shorthand  :ph34r: ) not Pysyk.

[WildCard]

Leddy went for equivalent of Jake McCabe Andrei Makarov and Bobby Sanguinetti

Boychuk for two seconds.

Whelp, I thought we were talking about the Vanek deal. If that's not the case my mistake

[TrueBlueGED]

The Vanek trade was one of the worst trades in the last decade; they did not make it to the playoffs that year, they were a bottom 5 team.

 

I've seen our defense in the preseason, I'm well aware of what they are. Our assets from the tank are already used, unless you count a handful of 2nd a later round picks, and that's not brining much to the table. Our trading cupboard of pieces that aren't a major part of our team moving forward is very bare

 

 

The whole point of the tank was long term and meaningful success, not a 1st round game 7 loss.

While maybe we'd want to shy away from a Boychuk equivalent due to age, an add akin to Leddy would be perfect. Don't think it's out there this year, but something like that is absolutely worth giving up assets for.

Whelp, I thought we were talking about the Vanek deal. If that's not the case my mistake

That's it, timeout for you!

[Thwomp!]

The Vanek trade was one of the worst trades in the last decade; they did not make it to the playoffs that year, they were a bottom 5 team.

 

I've seen our defense in the preseason, I'm well aware of what they are. Our assets from the tank are already used, unless you count a handful of 2nd a later round picks, and that's not brining much to the table. Our trading cupboard of pieces that aren't a major part of our team moving forward is very bare

 

 

The whole point of the tank was long term and meaningful success, not a 1st round game 7 loss.

I think we're gong to have to agree to disagree here.  We're not talking a Vanek-type trade.  The Islanders gave up some prospects and 2nd round picks for the trades last year which we have.  See Dudacek's post above.

 

We're also not talking about the Vanek trade year.  We're talking about the Islanders getting two solid, veteran defensemen for not much and then going to the playoffs.

 

I would take a 7 game first round playoff series as our "developmental" year right now if it was offered.  Playoffs this year does not mean we won't still have long term success.  It may just speed up the process to where we get to that long term success earlier.  :beer:

 

edit: I see there were further developments while I was typing this out, so let's not talk about Vanek anymore.  I'm sure we're all good with that!  :thumbsup:

Edited October 5, 2015 by EastsideOasis

[3putt]

The only pieces I see as possibilities are Quincey and Russell, but I am not willing to pay a premium for either.  I simply do not think developing players in a new system, under a new coach and building an identity albeit with considerable growing pains and more than likely, no playoffs as a wasted season.  On the contrary, I think it makes a lot of sense and positions the organization to 1) know exactly what deficiencies it needs to address 2) adequately value the assets under contract based on more data and 3) execute any acquisitions with a long term view as originally planned.  I guess we differ on the last point Oasis.  

[Thwomp!]

I think we agree actually.  The Islanders addressed short and longer term.  I'm only looking for that circumstance, but it doesn't appear to be available.  I also think that I'm less inclined to value Donoco, since they seem like short timers to me at this point.  If we can upgrade them relatively cheaply, and address both short and longer term needs, go for it and don't just write this year off in advance.

[beerme1]

That sentence you quoted is quite out of context by itself.  The full context that I said was that I'd be disappointed if a deal to improve our defensive personnel was out there similar to what the Islanders did, that I would be disappointed in someone else doing it and not us, when we could certainly try to improve this year and not stand pat with what we have.  It doesn't have to be a wasted year, and it doesn't have to be as much of a potentially wasted year if we make a good move or two.   I think most would agree that where we are now on defense is not ideal.

 

 

 

I can't believe that anyone even for a minute would think that our GM would be on the sidelines doing nothing after all he has said and done. The man doesn't strike me as standing on the sidelines doing a full Darcy if there's a deal to be had.

[Thwomp!]

I can't believe that anyone even for a minute would think that our GM would be on the sidelines doing nothing after all he has said and done. The man doesn't strike me as standing on the sidelines doing a full Darcy if there's a deal to be had.

Unless this is a desired "development" year, which many have stated/speculated.  I'm arguing against the "development" year mindset because:  1.) It doesn't have to be a "development" year.  2.) Improving and competing for the playoffs and "development" are not mutually exclusive, especially when all we're replacing/upgrading are Donoco, who are not likely long timers anyhow.

 

Regardless, I think I've stated my case, and I'll shut up now.  It's extremely likely not happening anyway, and there may not be any good deals to be had, but now is the time that it would happen with rosters being finalized around the league.  

Edited October 5, 2015 by EastsideOasis

[LGR4GM]

I think we agree actually.  The Islanders addressed short and longer term.  I'm only looking for that circumstance, but it doesn't appear to be available.  I also think that I'm less inclined to value Donoco, since they seem like short timers to me at this point.  If we can upgrade them relatively cheaply, and address both short and longer term needs, go for it and don't just write this year off in advance.

If Murray finds a player and deal he likes, he will pull the trigger during any year. Right now though, prices are high, draft picks are worth a little less, and teams want to see what they have.  I don't think we need to write anything off yet.

Unless this is a desired "development" year, which many have stated/speculated.  I'm arguing against the "development" year mindset because:  1.) It doesn't have to be a "development" year.  2.) Improving and competing for the playoffs and "development" are not mutually exclusive, especially when all we're replacing/upgrading are Donoco, who are not likely long timers anyhow.

 

Regardless, I think I've stated my case, and I'll shut up now.  It's extremely likely not happening anyway, and there may not be any good deals to be had, but now is the time that it would happen with rosters being finalized around the league.  

Not necessarily.  Good deals only happen if teams have cap issues. If not, people will not be forced to action. Currently only 6 teams are over the cap and I think 2 of them have major injuries so they will get LTIR credits going into the season. The Boston thing last year was more of a up on their part than anything.  I think we could see something but if we don't it is all good, Murray will continue to work.

[beerme1]

Unless this is a desired "development" year, which many have stated/speculated.  I'm arguing against the "development" year mindset because:  1.) It doesn't have to be a "development" year.  2.) Improving and competing for the playoffs and "development" are not mutually exclusive, especially when all we're replacing/upgrading are Donoco, who are not likely long timers anyhow.

 

 

Agree with you 100% on these points. Murray himself stated something along the lines of missing the playoffs and winning the lottery. But that comment was a shot at the league. Not about our make up this year. 

[Thwomp!]

Agree with you 100% on these points. Murray himself stated something along the lines of missing the playoffs and winning the lottery. But that comment was a shot at the league. Not about our make up this year. 

If I had to make a bet, and bet everything I own, and there was some way to actually determine this, I would bet that Murray would like another high draft pick this year to be used on the best blue liner he can get.  That he doesn't realistically think we're going to be competing for the playoffs.  Just my reading of things.