Patrick Kane: [Updated] D.A. Decides Not to Prosecute; NHL Determines Claims "Unfounded"

[shrader]

Serious question:  if Cambria's assertion that no Kane DNA was found on the lower part of the accuser's body is proven to be true, does it make you more inclined to believe that Kane is innocent? 

 

On the one hand, we've been over the various holes in this theory -- the hospital swabbing could have been performed incorrectly or inadequately, he could've been wearing a condom, etc.  On the other hand, it's more or less impossible to prove a negative -- so it may not be reasonable to think that the failure to prove a negative in this situation means that the absence of his DNA should be completely disregarded.

 

If they're trying to imply that no DNA being found down below clears him of rape, how does that mesh with the DNA found under the finger nails?  I'm trying to think of a reasonable explanation for why that's there.  What exactly is the claim they're making?  Just some random possibilities that come to mind:

 

1. There was consensual sex and that is where the finger nail DNA came from.

2. He wanted more but she cut him off, and in the process of resisting scratched him.  No sex occurred.

 

So in the first scenario, the lack of DNA down below is meaningless.  In the second scenario, the best I can see is that it accounts for the difference between rape and attempted rape.  Would he get to walk there due to double jeopardy if they did present a rape charge?

 

I'm sure someone can come up with some better ideas than I just did.  The finger nail thing confuses me quite a bit.

[Sabresince70]

 Just watched the first 5 minutes or so of the press conf. I can only guess that they placed the entire kit inside a bag (we seal the box, but I guess it is their procedure to bag it?). I am sure there is more than one manufacturer of the kits, so it could be the bag is then sealed. 

Largest concern I have from the press conf. - the "bag had been RIPPED open" - Never, never does a bag get "ripped" open. They even have lines devoted to show exactly where to cut the bag (does not disturb writing - think of how plastic bags with frozen food distort when you rip them). I just never heard of someone "ripping" an evidence bag. 

 

And how the bag is not considered important after it has been emptied makes no sense. It contains the nurse's init. to show chain of custody. Without that bag remaining in custody, I can't imagine its contents being accepted. If they (the officer that collected from the nurse) had to drive it to the lab, he would need to be able to show from point A to point B, and probably even account for time and miles .As small as my department is (there are only ten of us on the force) we treat evidence as we would a person in custody - we call mileage in to dispatch, we get times, the transport itself would either have its own cad number or would be a continuation from the original call. If the bag is picked up by someone from the lab they would need it, I hope, to show chain.

 

I could accept (not condone - but believe) someone dropped off a bag w/ vics name on it. (maybe someone saying "you have no evidence"....but, Someone dropping off the ACTUAL bag, unbelievable. And not able to be defended. The lawyer says it is confirmed to be the actual bag - this is really disturbing.

 

I know all departments are different, and I have no idea what their SOP says, but really having a hard time understanding how THE bag could be let out of evidence. And I would think anyone having access to the bag would be known and accounted for as well.

[darksabre]

Just watched the first 5 minutes or so of the press conf. I can only guess that they placed the entire kit inside a bag (we seal the box, but I guess it is their procedure to bag it?). I am sure there is more than one manufacturer of the kits, so it could be the bag is then sealed.

 

Largest concern I have from the press conf. - the "bag had been RIPPED open" - Never, never does a bag get "ripped" open. They even have lines devoted to show exactly where to cut the bag (does not disturb writing - think of how plastic bags with frozen food distort when you rip them). I just never heard of someone "ripping" an evidence bag.

 

And how the bag is not considered important after it has been emptied makes no sense. It contains the nurse's init. to show chain of custody. Without that bag remaining in custody, I can't imagine its contents being accepted. If they (the officer that collected from the nurse) had to drive it to the lab, he would need to be able to show from point A to point B, and probably even account for time and miles .As small as my department is (there are only ten of us on the force) we treat evidence as we would a person in custody - we call mileage in to dispatch, we get times, the transport itself would either have its own cad number or would be a continuation from the original call. If the bag is picked up by someone from the lab they would need it, I hope, to show chain.

 

I could accept (not condone - but believe) someone dropped off a bag w/ vics name on it. (maybe someone saying "you have no evidence"....but, Someone dropping off the ACTUAL bag, unbelievable. And not able to be defended. The lawyer says it is confirmed to be the actual bag - this is really disturbing.

 

I know all departments are different, and I have no idea what their SOP says, but really having a hard time understanding how THE bag could be let out of evidence. And I would think anyone having access to the bag would be known and accounted for as well.

Thank you for this insight about the handling of something like this bag. This provides some support to my theory that the way the bag has been unsealed might be a cause for suspicion.

[Eleven]

Good stuff again, SS70.

[Taro T]

If they're trying to imply that no DNA being found down below clears him of rape, how does that mesh with the DNA found under the finger nails?  I'm trying to think of a reasonable explanation for why that's there.  What exactly is the claim they're making?  Just some random possibilities that come to mind:

 

1. There was consensual sex and that is where the finger nail DNA came from.

2. He wanted more but she cut him off, and in the process of resisting scratched him.  No sex occurred.

 

So in the first scenario, the lack of DNA down below is meaningless.  In the second scenario, the best I can see is that it accounts for the difference between rape and attempted rape.  Would he get to walk there due to double jeopardy if they did present a rape charge?

 

I'm sure someone can come up with some better ideas than I just did.  The finger nail thing confuses me quite a bit.

Lots of ways for tissue/fluids containing DNA to get under her fingernails. Some nefarious, some not so much.

 

A very limited list: kissing/ licking a finger; her scratching his arm gently or his face violently; her slapping him & having a fingernail catch; her tripping over something, reaching out to his arm to catch her and her fingernail(s) digging into flesh. The obvious expectation is that she scratched him violently, but that is only 1 possibility.

[shrader]

Lots of ways for tissue/fluids containing DNA to get under her fingernails. Some nefarious, some not so much.

 

A very limited list: kissing/ licking a finger; her scratching his arm gently or his face violently; her slapping him & having a fingernail catch; her tripping over something, reaching out to his arm to catch her and her fingernail(s) digging into flesh. The obvious expectation is that she scratched him violently, but that is only 1 possibility.

 

So then it becomes a question of how much was there and if he had any matching marks?

[Taro T]

So then it becomes a question of how much was there and if he had any matching marks?

That seems reasonable.

[That Aud Smell]

Serious question:  if Cambria's assertion that no Kane DNA was found on the lower part of the accuser's body is proven to be true, does it make you more inclined to believe that Kane is innocent? 

 

It supports the defense's case, but does not rule out the theory that the prosecution would apparently be pursuing. (I alluded to that upthread, and won't repeat here because it's ... well, icky.)

 

2. He wanted more but she cut him off, and in the process of resisting scratched him.  No sex occurred.

 

I think this is pretty close to what the accuser is saying.

 

Also, the DNA under the fingernails could be the result of some consensual and rough contact, or it could be from an effort to escape an act to which she did not consent.

 

 Just watched the first 5 minutes or so of the press conf.

 

This guy. 

 

Thank you, sir.

Edited September 24, 2015 by That Aud Smell

[Sabresince70]

No problem with giving what I know, glad I can contribute, just please, everyone remember I can only tell you what WE do. Every state, and every county, municipality, are different. We (Alburtis / every municipal dept. in Lehigh County) all use the State Police lab (even Allentown, which is 3rd largest city in our state). Any rape kit collected for an incident in my borough, would be done at the neighboring township's hospital -we don't have one. Maybe because so many different agencies get involved, we are a little more worried  about the process. Everyone talks about cameras mounted in police cars - ours even record the cabin of the car so transports are recorded. Every transmission from our dispatch (which is county wide) ends with the time. 

 

Again, eleven, and the other lawyers here may have much better info for how Erie County in NY works, but I really like having all my reports backed with something when it comes time for hearings/trials. (Hard to argue that you didn't roll a stop sign when I can bring a dvd with the whole incident on it to court). Hard to say it was 20 minutes before x arrived when the times are all stamped on the cad.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Sabresince70

[inkman]

For whatever reason the bag ended up at the mothers house, it appears the analysis has been completed. The results are all that matters, which I'm sure has been submitted and recorded.

If you said this 24 hours ago 4 pages of this thread wouldn't exist.

[Eleven]

No problem with giving what I know, glad I can contribute, just please, everyone remember I can only tell you what WE do. Every state, and every county, municipality, are different. We (Alburtis / every municipal dept. in Lehigh County) all use the State Police lab (even Allentown, which is 3rd largest city in our state). Any rape kit collected for an incident in my borough, would be done at the neighboring township's hospital -we don't have one. Maybe because so many different agencies get involved, we are a little more worried  about the process. Everyone talks about cameras mounted in police cars - ours even record the cabin of the car so transports are recorded. Every transmission from our dispatch (which is county wide) ends with the time. 

 

Again, eleven, and the other lawyers here may have much better info for how Erie County in NY works, but I really like having all my reports backed with something when it comes time for hearings/trials. (Hard to argue that you didn't roll a stop sign when I can bring a dvd with the whole incident on it to court). Hard to say it was 20 minutes before x arrived when the times are all stamped on the cad.

 

I have no idea whatsoever about chain of custody stuff, or rape kits, or anything like it, which is why I'm really glad you're in this thread.

[nfreeman]

It supports the defense's case, but does not rule out the theory that the prosecution would apparently be pursuing. (I alluded to that upthread, and won't repeat here because it's ... well, icky.)

 

 

But if that is the theory -- it would seem logical (although of course not certain) that she would've mentioned that to the hospital personnel when they were performing the rape exam, and the hospital would've swabbed the relevant areas, right?

[Sabresince70]

You are one of the lawyers, though, right? I do read these often, but I admit to not always being able to remember who is who. The only member I ever met was Taro and that was long ago. 

[shrader]

You are one of the lawyers, though, right? I do read these often, but I admit to not always being able to remember who is who. The only member I ever met was Taro and that was long ago. 

 

I have bad news for you, Taro isn't real. :ph34r:

[Eleven]

You are one of the lawyers, though, right? I do read these often, but I admit to not always being able to remember who is who. The only member I ever met was Taro and that was long ago. 

 

Yes.  There are at least three active in this thread.  I'll leave it to the others to out themselves if they want to.

 

I have bad news for you, Taro isn't real. :ph34r:

 

Yeah?  Well Taro sez YOU'RE not real.

[Sabresince70]

Right now I would be very uncomfortable being one of the officers / techs who had custody of the evidence. Imagine being on the stand and asked how that bag was left out of the case box/file and got out of the evidence room. Has there been anymore said on how the vics lawyer "confirmed" that it was THE bag? Aside from the nurses initials, anyone could get a blank bag and fill in the info. And, if the nurses initials were the only ones on the bag, it would imply (in my county) that it was discarded before getting to the lab.  If any one here can tell me how to upload a pic from my files, I can blow up a pic of a bag and explain better how the signatures would be. I can only figure out how to use an image from the web (computers are not my strong point)

And Taro, the daughter that was with me now has a daughter of her own (feeling old).

[TrueBlueGED]

Yes. There are at least three active in this thread. I'll leave it to the others to out themselves if they want to.

 

 

Yeah? Well Taro sez YOU'RE not real.

Oh Shrader is real, and he's unspectacular.

[inkman]

Oh Shrader is real, and he's unspectacular.

Awesome

[Taro T]

Right now I would be very uncomfortable being one of the officers / techs who had custody of the evidence. Imagine being on the stand and asked how that bag was left out of the case box/file and got out of the evidence room. Has there been anymore said on how the vics lawyer "confirmed" that it was THE bag? Aside from the nurses initials, anyone could get a blank bag and fill in the info. And, if the nurses initials were the only ones on the bag, it would imply (in my county) that it was discarded before getting to the lab.  If any one here can tell me how to upload a pic from my files, I can blow up a pic of a bag and explain better how the signatures would be. I can only figure out how to use an image from the web (computers are not my strong point)

And Taro, the daughter that was with me now has a daughter of her own (feeling old).

Congrats old man. :p

 

That is excellent news. :beer:

[Sabresince70]

Thanks, but it wasn't planned. All is good though.

[thesportsbuff]

Just saw this tweet:

 

Steve Brown ‏@WGRZ_SteveBrown  13m13 minutes ago

EVIDENCE BAG? Att'y for accuser in #KaneInvestigation says it held evidence. But it's minus markings. Story 5&6 @WGRZ

 

I guess i'll tune in at 5, but would that mean it's a fake if it is missing certain markings?

[spndnchz]

A bag, that held evidence, and such evidence has already been "tested", is found empty. Where's the news here?

[Sabresince70]

Ok, next take on the bag - the side shown in that links photo looks like it has the bar code on it. When we "enter" an item, that item gets a number, it is not the same as the case or incident number. Our property/evidence room officer generates a bar code sticker that is then attached to the bag (For us this is ONLY done after any analysis is done, and USUALLY only when it is now being stored for trial / final disposition. That bar code (in our dept.) is only to be able to locate it in the property room. Believe numbers can get very confusing.

 

Ex. When a call is dispatched (go to hospital, sex assault complaint..... that generates a cad (call) number ex. 15-0011881

When the officer begins investigation (once he knows he is taking a report) it gets a case number (it won't be the same) ex. AB-15-18882

Each item will be given a number (usually case number followed by a letter, but not always)  ex. AB-15-18882A

each item, when given to the property room, receives a property location number. Completely different and bar coded. Think of it like the bar codes on a library book. It can be removed, but it will be electronically tracked at all times.  (And I continue to stress, that is for my department, not nec. in NY)

 

What I see on that bag looks like our location number. it could well be a lab label, too. Just not the way it would look here. (lab label would be on a new bag w/ chain of custody label)

Given time and the ambition to do so, anyone could "forge" the label - but I swear he said the bag had the nurse's signature/initials on it. Would like to see the other side of that bag....

[thesportsbuff]

Just saw this tweet:

 

Steve Brown ‏@WGRZ_SteveBrown  13m13 minutes ago

EVIDENCE BAG? Att'y for accuser in #KaneInvestigation says it held evidence. But it's minus markings. Story 5&6 @WGRZ

 

I guess i'll tune in at 5, but would that mean it's a fake if it is missing certain markings?

 

So to follow up on this, Steve Brown reported on WGRZ that the bag is lacking certain markings (name, initials, and a label of what is inside) and that it may indicate the bag was just an extra and was never actually used to hold evidence. 

[Taro T]

So to follow up on this, Steve Brown reported on WGRZ that the bag is lacking certain markings (name, initials, and a label of what is inside) and that it may indicate the bag was just an extra and was never actually used to hold evidence.

 

... And the tennis game continues. This one seems to be more compelling than Serena's quest for a calendar year slam. Pretty sure the ball is back in Attorney E's court.