Patrick Kane: [Updated] D.A. Decides Not to Prosecute; NHL Determines Claims "Unfounded"

[Stoner]

Do you think that most college rape cases are actually cases of regret?

It was a fart-suppression, not a rape, meme joke. (First time in human history someone has put fart-suppression, meme and rape in the same sentence.)

[LGR4GM]

Are we back to regret=rape from that college case? There's a reason everyone hates the "intent to blow" rule.

 

 

What college case?  Also do you think that most college rape cases are actually cases of regret?

 

 

It was a fart-suppression, not a rape, meme joke. (First time in human history someone has put fart-suppression, meme and rape in the same sentence.)

And now we have come back to the original question, which I would still like an answer for.  You tossed out that first statement and used the "intent to blow" rule from hockey as your example. So answer the question, do you think that most college rape cases are actually cases of regret?

[Wyldnwoody44]

Second person to say that. Why can I view it, I wonder? I don't subscribe.

Supehero Internet powers?!

These things easily take months to investigate under normal circumstances (from what I've read the typical rape kit alone takes a month to process in Erie County, to say nothing of the rest of the investigation) before any charges are brought (or not brought). And let's face it, a rich local star being accused isn't a normal circumstance. Barring some kind of settlement, I can't imagine this dies anything other than drag through the season.

It came out so strong (as most cases of this magnitude do) and then nothing..... I do believe the NHL takes things more seriously than the NBA or NFL, but I get the feeling that money talks in this case, as in superstar status and fancy lawyer vs a local girl

[Stoner]

And now we have come back to the original question, which I would still like an answer for.  You tossed out that first statement and used the "intent to blow" rule from hockey as your example. So answer the question, do you think that most college rape cases are actually cases of regret?

Do you agree that regret=rape, even after a consentual encounter?

 

http://www.roanoke.com/news/education/higher_education/student-claims-he-was-expelled-from-w-l-for-consensual/article_5c28779e-a237-5e8d-b958-a1a2dadd83f1.html

[LGR4GM]

Do you agree that regret=rape, even after a consentual encounter?

 

http://www.roanoke.com/news/education/higher_education/student-claims-he-was-expelled-from-w-l-for-consensual/article_5c28779e-a237-5e8d-b958-a1a2dadd83f1.html

Answer my question.

do you think that most college rape cases are actually cases of regret?

[Stoner]

Answer my question.

do you think that most college rape cases are actually cases of regret?

Isn't this where the courtroom starts murmuring and the judge calls a recess?

 

I am getting hung up on the term "rape case." If by that term you mean a rape, then no rape cases can be cases of regret, because regret, if there's consent, is irrelevant. 

 

But I'm pretty sure you're trying to get me to claim that most rape accusations are situations where a woman merely regrets the encounter. She consented but now feels all icky about it. That college guys aren't actually raping women, it's women playing their Jedi Mind Tricks. Of course I don't believe that. Nice try.

 

You seemed to come close to buying into the regret equals rape concept earlier in the thread. Now answer my question. Does regret equal rape?

[LGR4GM]

You are in error. I don't think regret equates to rape.  Also there is no "nice try" here.  I asked you a question and then you spent over a day screwing around instead of simply answering.  I asked that question because you have drawn the regret and rape parallel several times. A parallel that I think is false and a deliberate attempt to muddy the waters.  I have not, nor will I equate rape with regret.  Regret by women is an entirely separate societal issue in which we make girls feel bad for having sex.  You originally quoted something I said where we need to empower women. "I am saying we need to empower women. Knowing you can say no and feeling you have the power to say no are not the same thing." You bastardized that point to make your own.

[Stoner]

You are in error. I don't think regret equates to rape.  Also there is no "nice try" here.  I asked you a question and then you spent over a day screwing around instead of simply answering.  I asked that question because you have drawn the regret and rape parallel several times. A parallel that I think is false and a deliberate attempt to muddy the waters.  I have not, nor will I equate rape with regret.  Regret by women is an entirely separate societal issue in which we make girls feel bad for having sex.  You originally quoted something I said where we need to empower women. "I am saying we need to empower women. Knowing you can say no and feeling you have the power to say no are not the same thing." You bastardized that point to make your own.

It's tricky. We're back to the issue of no means no vs. yes means yes. If a woman wants to say no but doesn't feel she has the power to do so — in the absence of affirmative consent — has she been raped? 

 

My intent to blow analogy is crude but pretty fair. She wants to blow the rape whistle but hasn't blown it. Is the goal (an apparently consensual encounter) wiped out by the whistle, sometimes blown months later?

[LGR4GM]

It's tricky. We're back to the issue of no means no vs. yes means yes. If a woman wants to say no but doesn't feel she has the power to do so — in the absence of affirmative consent — has she been raped? 

 

My intent to blow analogy is crude but pretty fair. She wants to blow the rape whistle but hasn't blown it. Is the goal (an apparently consensual encounter) wiped out by the whistle, sometimes blown months later?

Now see when you frame it like that, it is an interesting, thought provoking question.  As long as we aren't operating under the assumption that regret is the normal/typical reason for girls saying they were raped.  I am saying that using regret and crying wolf is a rare occurrence.  That said the thought exercise requires me to think on it.  I don't have a good answer at the moment. Bourbon and ginger dulls things. 

[Neo]

I've been following.

 

Musing ... as we move toward society recognizing affirmative consent, what becomes of the intoxicated? Can a drunk person consent in any meaningful way? A minor lacks capacity.

 

One side of the coin: you need affirmative consent from your partner to proceed. The other side of the coin: you proceed joyfully until your partner objects.

 

A coin standing on edge: "You never said "no"". "I never said "yes"". Both hung-over the following morning. Rape?

 

I've attended four college orientation days with my kids. Good people have wildly different points of view.

Edited August 22, 2015 by Neo

[biodork]

It's tricky. We're back to the issue of no means no vs. yes means yes. If a woman wants to say no but doesn't feel she has the power to do so — in the absence of affirmative consent — has she been raped? 

 

My intent to blow analogy is crude but pretty fair. She wants to blow the rape whistle but hasn't blown it. Is the goal (an apparently consensual encounter) wiped out by the whistle, sometimes blown months later?

 

Now see when you frame it like that, it is an interesting, thought provoking question.  As long as we aren't operating under the assumption that regret is the normal/typical reason for girls saying they were raped.  I am saying that using regret and crying wolf is a rare occurrence.  That said the thought exercise requires me to think on it.  I don't have a good answer at the moment. Bourbon and ginger dulls things. 

 

I've been following.

 

Musing ... as we move toward society recognizing affirmative consent, what becomes of the intoxicated? Can a drunk person consent in any meaningful way? A minor lacks capacity.

 

One side of the coin: you need affirmative consent from your partner to proceed. The other side of the coin: you proceed joyfully until your partner objects.

 

A coin standing on edge: "You never said "no"". "I never said "yes"". Both hung-over the following morning. Rape?

 

I've attended four college orientation days with my kids. Good people have wildly different points of view.

Both interesting perspectives.  I don't doubt there are probably situations where perhaps one party severely regrets what has happened even if they never verbally said "no" (whether due to shock, drunkeness, inability to consent, etc) and perhaps parents push someone to file a complaint seeing the distress in their loved one and knowing it was something they didn't want to happen.  I don't know if this is what Liger or PA were considering when discussing regret, and I certainly don't think it's a majority of cases, but I can see something like this happening where it wouldn't meet the legal definition of rape, even if mentally someone felt extremely violated and taken advantage of.  A bad situation all around.

Edited August 22, 2015 by biodork

[JJFIVEOH]

Does a double standard exist? If not, should it?

 

http://abc13.com/news/former-nfl-cheerleader-sentenced-for-raping-teen/950574/

[shrader]

Wait a second. Did I seriously just read in here that day after regret is a product of us shaming women about having sex? Do they really have absolutely zero say in the matter because that's what these conversations wind up making it look like. Sometimes we go to such lengths to protect them that we absolve them completely of any responsibility whatsoever.

[Hank]

Yes, there is a double standard. No, it should not exist. She should be in jail. There should be the same outcry as if is was a forty-eight year old man raping a fifteen year old girl.

[calti]

Yes, there is a double standard. No, it should not exist. She should be in jail. There should be the same outcry as if is was a forty-eight year old man raping a fifteen year old girl.

I don't think it is an equal situation. A 15 yr old boy is stronger than a woman . Im not condoning what she did at all. Its just a different situation when one of the individuals is overpowered.

[Hank]

I don't think it is an equal situation. A 15 yr old boy is stronger than a woman . Im not condoning what she did at all. Its just a different situation when one of the individuals is overpowered.

48 year old adult and a 15 year old kid, gender shouldn't matter, it's statutory rape. Her gender doesn't make her any less of a predator, she should be in jail. If a 48 yo man didn't overpower a 15 yo girl and she wanted to have sex with him you'd be okay with that? Don't we have pages on here crucifying Kane when we thought his alleged victim may have been 16? Why the double standard for the woman? She's attractive so it's okay? But if she was ugly and weighed 260 it would be different?

Edited August 22, 2015 by Hank

[GoPre]

I don't think it is an equal situation. A 15 yr old boy is stronger than a woman . Im not condoning what she did at all. Its just a different situation when one of the individuals is overpowered.

 

 

A 15 year old boy may be stronger than woman, but he is not considered ready to make a decision like that. So yes, she and all other women should be held to the same standard as men. It is an equal situation. 

Edited August 22, 2015 by Thanes16

[drnkirishone]

do you think that most college rape cases are actually cases of regret?

do I think most cases are? No, however the law my college had at the time was so sexist that you couldn't help but question any claim made. Note I am not saying dismiss or ignore. I am only saying question the legitimacy of the claim

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Yes, there is a double standard. No, it should not exist. She should be in jail. There should be the same outcry as if is was a forty-eight year old man raping a fifteen year old girl.

 

I completely agree.

 

That sentence is a joke.  Basically saying that it's OK, just plead to this and it will all go away.  It won''t just go away for that boy ... that child.  He probably will be in therapy for the rest of his life.  My hope is that it's a long life, if you know what I mean.

[Stoner]

Does a double standard exist? If not, should it?

 

http://abc13.com/news/former-nfl-cheerleader-sentenced-for-raping-teen/950574/

Yes. No.

 

Why aren't we talking about situations where a woman doesn't get affirmative consent from a man before they have sex? If no affirmative consent, wasn't the man raped? The woman aggressively gets on top, he's erect but, hey, that's not a green light, ladies, and he has no power given societal attitudes to say no. He doesn't want it but doesn't fight it.

[darksabre]

Yes. No.

 

Why aren't we talking about situations where a woman doesn't get affirmative consent from a man before they have sex? If no affirmative consent, wasn't the man raped? The woman aggressively gets on top, he's erect but, hey, that's not a green light, ladies, and he has no power given societal attitudes to say no. He doesn't want it but doesn't fight it.

 

Who is the dominant party in the situation? 

[Hank]

Who is the dominant party in the situation?

 

Are you implying that physical force is a requirement for rape?

 

Do you believe that woman should go to jail?

Edited August 22, 2015 by Hank

[darksabre]

Are you implying that physical force is a requirement for rape?

 

No. 

[Hank]

No.

 

I edited while you answered, see previous post.

[darksabre]

I edited while you answered, see previous post.

 

I don't know why you're asking that question.