Patrick Kane: [Updated] D.A. Decides Not to Prosecute; NHL Determines Claims "Unfounded"

[WildCard]

Holy cow sicknfla, that's some powerful stuff right there. Words cannot express how sorry I am that happened to you, I hope you found some peace after all of that, and found someone to talk to about it. You got a ton of flack earlier in this thread, I think some apologies are in order.

First, thanks for voicing your experience and opinion josie.
As for the stayimg within a lane of behavior. And being required to be safe and guarded talk that is going on. I see it as a problem with sexual repression still. Women are taught to be pure and innocent and yadda yadda and if they are not they are a sinner and amoral. Yet boys get a bit more free reign and learn what "woman" are suppose to be like. So now you have all levels of confusion. Is that lady simply conforming to societal pressure to be prudish? Is the guy simply being overbearing so the lady can feel she was tricked/pressured into being amoral?
If people felt they could express themselves sexually without society judging them a lot of the supposed "rape culture" would go away. because it would remove a fair amount of the guess work.

Men are still have of the picture here.  While we might not necessarily be able to see things from their point of view, they also can't see things from ours.  These types of conversations seem to imply that the thoughts of men carry absolutely no weight on this topic.  So yes, while it is helpful to hear things from that different point of view, that fully balanced conversation is never going to happen around here on this board.  We don't have the right demographics for that to ever happen.

 

Edit: And I forgot to add that the other posts still do carry plenty of value.  This so called culture can't be fully understood unless we listen to them all.

Valid points, good stuff here.

 

nfreeman,

 

I like and respect you a great deal, but your reply to my post simply leaves me without words.  Maybe something will come to me later, maybe not.

What is so shocking about his post? His daughter is an adult (I think? You said shes college bound, right nfreeman?) and can make her own decisions. If she consents to be with some frat d-bag as nfreeman posted, that's her choice, and hes right in that it's justified to feel poorly about her decision without thinking it's rape 

Was it this thread where someone posted about a school supporting a rape complaint in a case of regret after a significant period of dating? I think those are the cases that concern nfreeman.

God I hope it was this board. If not my post looks really bad.

Nope, you're right, it was this thread. I believe Eleven brought that point up earlier, or at least supported(with evidence/articles) the lopsided manner in which rape allegations are handled in universities. 

Edited August 18, 2015 by WildCard

[...]

Shrader has it -- the point is that definition creep can result in regrettable/otherwise problematic sexual encounters being misclassified as rape.

And, frankly, our dumbed-down culture accepting this, yet not appreciating the ramifications.

[Stoner]

If objectification of the opposite sex is a key element of a rape culture, how much responsibility do women bear for doing it to men? I know, I know, the appeal of Channing Tatum is what a great actor he is. It gets a bit much sometimes, being a man and getting lectured at, while women jump up and down on Oprah (the show) when Tom Cruise comes out. Or maybe Cruise jumps up and down while the women sit and squirm, I forget. Women can be very sexually aggressive. A female friend of mine maintains that women are more "perverted" than men when talking amongst themselves and even sometimes in mixed company. I believe it.

 

Men get sexually harassed all the time. We (yes, it's happened to me) have to grin and bear it. The first man to make a federal case out of it will be laughed off the planet. I saw it happen in a VA hospital. A very good looking young serviceman doing volunteer duty got it up one side and down the other from two women, one in the employ of the VA and the other a fellow volunteer.

 

This isn't directed at you, sicknfla, but how many people believe that male minors who have been subjected to statutory rape have been victimized as much as female minors? Our society makes a joke out of the school boy who has sex with the female teacher. "Yeah, I wish I had been so lucky as to have Mrs. Johnson come on to me!" Not to channel GoDD here, but discussions of young boys being raped in and around State College get shut down, but the floodgates open when a woman alleges rape. Is anyone the least bit concerned about gay men getting raped?

 

This might stir the pot a little, but when these conversations always flow in one direction, I get a little annoyed.

Edited August 18, 2015 by PASabreFan

[qwksndmonster]

This isn't directed at you, sicknfla, but how many people believe that male minors who have been subjected to statutory rape have been victimized as much as female minors? Our society makes a joke out of the school boy who has sex with the female teacher. "Yeah, I wish I had been so lucky as to have Mrs. Johnson come on to me!" Not to channel GoDD here, but discussions of young boys being raped in and around State College get shut down, but the floodgates open when a woman alleges rape. Is anyone the least bit concerned about gay men getting raped?

That is exactly what happened. 

[sicknfla]

If objectification of the opposite sex is a key element of a rape culture, how much responsibility do women bear for doing it to men? I know, I know, the appeal of Channing Tatum is what a great actor he is. It gets a bit much sometimes, being a man and getting lectured at, while women jump up and down on Oprah (the show) when Tom Cruise comes out. Or maybe Cruise jumps up and down while the women sit and squirm, I forget. Women can be very sexually aggressive. A female friend of mine maintains that women are more "perverted" than men when talking amongst themselves and even sometimes in mixed company. I believe it.

 

Men get sexually harassed all the time. We (yes, it's happened to me) have to grin and bear it. The first man to make a federal case out of it will be laughed off the planet. I saw it happen in a VA hospital. A very good looking young serviceman doing volunteer duty got it up one side and down the other from two women, one in the employ of the VA and the other a fellow volunteer.

 

This isn't directed at you, sicknfla, but how many people believe that male minors who have been subjected to statutory rape have been victimized as much as female minors? Our society makes a joke out of the school boy who has sex with the female teacher. "Yeah, I wish I had been so lucky as to have Mrs. Johnson come on to me!" Not to channel GoDD here, but discussions of young boys being raped in and around State College get shut down, but the floodgates open when a woman alleges rape. Is anyone the least bit concerned about gay men getting raped?

 

This might stir the pot a little, but when these conversations always flow in one direction, I get a little annoyed.

I totally understand where you are coming from. Society has very much made the young kid with the older lady kind of a joke. I honestly never realized how twisted and crazy it was until my kids hit 13. Then it kind of hit me how young i really was and how i would probably kill a woman of she did that to my kid. Whether he was willing or not.

 

We are a strange society. Between all the free porn sites that anyone can watch to reality shows (on channels and at times that kids are up) based on a neighborhood that is nothing but swingers it is no wonder we are where we are.

 

Here is another one for you. I have 3 boys. Everyone of them has received some form of nude pic from a girl at school. Of course, they think it is funny. My wife and i find it sick. We have beat into their heads that no matter what you do DO NOT return the favor. Number one is the obvious. Number 2 is because coming from a girl she gets reprimanded. A boy sends them to a girl be gets arrested. Like i said - we are a f'd up society.

[JJFIVEOH]

Double standards occur for a reason; nature made men and women differently, we are not the same. I'm not saying one is worse than the other, not saying one is better. But we are not equal. Society is trying to make it that way. Feel free to apply that as you see fit.

[bunomatic]

How do y'all think about Tinder ? Tinder is all part of the evolving relationship sexually between men and women and I have to say the womens profiles on Tinder are just as brash, in some ways twisted, bawdy, dark and upfront sexually as the mens. What does that say about todays women and specifically what part do they play in mens attitudes towards them considering the honesty of their desires in the profile section ? The ladies seem to leave themselves wide open.  

[smj]

We live in a crazy culture...no, a crazy world because the perversion of sex is not just a U.S. thing.  But here we are in the U.S. in the 21st century trying to create a politically correct society but one where everything goes, sex is used to sell and draw attention to everything, porn is all over the internet and God forbid we restrict any of these freedoms to help people who are weak and/or tempted in these areas.  Sicknfla's story really got to me.  There were many victims in that story including the family member with so much guilt and baggage that she committed suicide. 

 

Our society has no idea where to draw the line or help people consumed by these urges or victims of them.  In fact, it isn't even politically correct to call them bad urges as that might be judgmental.  I think since we have stopped calling evil "EVIL" and sin "SIN" we are bound to struggle increasingly with these issues as a society.  And people who are willing to take advantage of this situation by lying about things that don't actually happen make it all the worse.  And who is really to know what happens in most of these circumstances? 

Edited August 19, 2015 by smj

[Neo]

This gas been one of the most interesting threads of late. I've learned a lot about the topic and even more about the collective "our" view .. including various points of view.

[JJFIVEOH]

We live in a crazy culture...no, a crazy world because the perversion of sex is not just a U.S. thing.  But here we are in the U.S. in the 21st century trying to create a politically correct society but one where everything goes, sex is used to sell and draw attention to everything, porn is all over the internet and God forbid we restrict any of these freedoms to help people who are weak and/or tempted in these areas.  Sicknfla's story really got to me.  There were many victims in that story included the family member with so much guilt and baggage that she committed suicide. 

 

Our society has no idea where to draw the line or help people consumed by these urges or victims of them.  In fact, it isn't even politically correct to call them bad urges as that might be judgmental.  I think since we have stopped calling evil "EVIL" and sin "SIN" we are bound to struggle increasingly with these issues as a society.  And people who are willing to take advantage of this situation by lying about things that don't actually happen make it all the worse.  And who is really to know what happens in most of these circumstances? 

 

This is kind of where I was going with my last post. Why do we need to draw a line? THAT is where the problems start. Why can't we accept the fact that no matter how much we try to change society, no matter how much we try to regulate society, no matter how much we try to make it politically correct....... it's just not going to make any more of a difference? Why do people need to judge those who go on Tinder? Why do people need to think they have an ethical and moral obligation to please society so they change their actions to conform?

 

Society wants men and women to be equal, it's just not going to happen. As much as it may sound politically correct, Mother Nature always wins out. Men and women are not equal, this is a fact that can't be argued. I don't think the problem is that we've stopped calling evil "EVIL" and sin "SIN"........... I think the problem is we call it too often.

[JJFIVEOH]

This gas been one of the most interesting threads of late. I've learned a lot about the topic and even more about the collective "our" view .. including various points of view.

 

Definitely been interesting. 

[Huckleberry]

This gas been one of the most interesting threads of late. I've learned a lot about the topic and even more about the collective "our" view .. including various points of view.

 

I've come to apreciate the members of this board alot more.   Lets just say there other forums where the members act alot less gracefully towards each other on this subject.

 

:thumbsup: 

Edited August 19, 2015 by Huckleberry

[tom webster]

^

 

Who did the grand jury service with Penny Wolfgang?

 

The effect of hierarchy in inclining subjects to favor acquittal was greatest among women; this finding was consistent with the hypothesis that hierarchical women have a distinctive interest in stigmatizing rape complainants whose behavior deviates from hierarchical gender norms.

That would be me.

[X. Benedict]

 

This isn't directed at you, sicknfla, but how many people believe that male minors who have been subjected to statutory rape have been victimized as much as female minors? Our society makes a joke out of the school boy who has sex with the female teacher. "Yeah, I wish I had been so lucky as to have Mrs. Johnson come on to me!"

 .

I had my own Mrs Johnson. She invited me to her house for a party and it quickly became apparent I was the only one invited. She showed me the bedroom door. I got nervous and bolted. All learning stopped for me that year. Especially in her class. My grades went down.

 

I never said a thing. I couldn't tell classmates because I'd be a major "" for passing on that, because she was physically beautiful. I was too young to have the skills to navigate that and I was disgusted by and attracted to her at the same time. I constantly fantasized about ringing her doorbell again, (to explain and make it better? to have sex and make it better?) I was overwhelmed with guilt.

 

She stopped being nice to me. I remember the tone of her voice changing from sunny to flat when she spoke to me after that. I dreaded each trip to her class, like a trip to the dentist. I had no legal terms or vocabulary at that age to explain to anyone what happened. Especially decades ago.

 

Not sure exactly what I lost in that, but it was something. And I wasn't raped.

[That Aud Smell]

I want to thank sickinfla, X, and others for sharing their stories.

 

For me, the debate here about sexual violence, sexuality, gender norms, etc. ran its course yesterday. (That's for me - I understand if others want want to continue.) But the fact that the discussion has more recently elicited such personal input from community members is something to be acknowledged and valued.

[Hank]

I lost my virginity to my friends mother, so did two other guys that I know. I know there's more, but I only know of the two personally. She lived on the corner of Franklin and Adams in tonawanda, kitty corner from Old Man River. If any other posters on here know who I'm talking about and you struggle with it, you're not alone.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Hank

[nfreeman]

I want to thank sickinfla, X, and others for sharing their stories.

 

For me, the debate here about sexual violence, sexuality, gender norms, etc. ran its course yesterday. (That's for me - I understand if others want want to continue.) But the fact that the discussion has more recently elicited such personal input from community members is something to be acknowledged and valued.

All of this. Thanks to all who spoke up.

[shrader]

It is interesting to hear stories from the male perspective.  That all too often gets ignored.

[MattPie]

isnty is the slang for it and I have personally started to use it more. FB is just too bitchy this days. 

 

 

As that means creator, I have monitored it's use and thus far it has been used appropriately and for some good hilarity.

 

If FB is bitchy for you, get some better friends. :)

 

I stand by D4rk and Liger in the same discussion. Welcome to our new world, everybody.

 

There's been a ton of anti-feminism from some posts in this thread. It may be misinformation and/or the common assumption that feminists are all loud, man-hating, ######-wielding in your streets crazies. They aren't. They just want women to continue progressing towards true equality. They are women AND men. We are not here to take over the world, just to make it better for others.

 

Agreed. There are those people (just like there are over the top PC people), but for the most part people that believe those things aren't the whack-jobs some of the media portrays them to be.

 

As others have said, excellent post Josie. Really shows the other side of the coin.

 

I've been thinking a lot about how exactly to get the "rape culture" message across more effectively, as to what it is trying to say, and the best I've come up with is to draw parallels to bullying. While most men are not the victim of sexual assault, many are the victims of bullying (hell many have personally been on both sides there). Most of that (thought obviously not all) isn't hate-driven or intentionally hurtful, it's just "having some fun" and whatnot--the bullies dont realize the effects there really having. The victims of bullying often internalize the pain and are outwardly playing along and laughing, all while they suffer...afraid to be a "rat" or whatever by telling people in authority what is happening.

 

Great post. It does seem a lot like bullying now that you mention it. I forget the details, but NPR was talking about rape a week ago (I think it was Fresh Air), and until 2012 (I think) the FBI's definition of rape was only violent force. There was no allowance for coercion and nothing said about rape within the bounds of marriage. It's an sad question: at what point does "I'm going to ruin your life if you don't sleep with me" or "I'll beat you senseless unless..." become rape?

 

(Please correct me on the details, I was driving home from work so I wasn't able to pay full attention)

[LTS]

From a purely legal perspective, you consciously engage in the the act of imbibing, regardless of any level of addiction.  once you do you cannot rely on the logical outcome, i.e. impairment of judgement, to excuse subsequent actions.  This is the basis for DUI.  By your logic, the fact that you are impaired would excuse the act of getting behind the wheel.  In the eyes of the law it does not.  A person cannot consent when impaired, whether through substance abuse or natural lack of mental acuity.  A sober person cannot assume another sober person's consent.  That a perpetrator who is impaired acts if they can, they do so at their own peril.  

 

I appreciate the legal responses you provide to my questions.  And I have brought up the DUI question (I think it was in another thread).  My question specifically was that if two drunk people engage in sex and the next day the female regrets it there is often an investigation as she could not give consent.  But neither could the male by definition, so what happens?  Does the guy get to claim he also said no.. as far as he remembers?

 

I've heard very similar reflections from just about every woman I've discussed this issue with. Now it's a small sample size (20 or so, most of which were in a single classroom), but there's a theme.

I often discuss some of the issues we discuss here with my girlfriend as she has insight I do not. I have never shared her insight on here as that's not my place, but she said she doesn't mind here.

Without telling her the contents of Josie's post she mentioned almost exactly the invisible boundaries she feels she needs to stay within. She explained a scenario where she went to a rave dressed in shorts and a shirt showing her belly. A man attempted to "grind" on her (essentially he thrust his pelvis into her back and she/her friend shoved him away and shouted at him). He then proceeded to call her a "hoe" and mentioned that she shouldn't dress that way if she didn't expect guys to approach her. This guy, on the other hand, was shirtless wearing nothing but shorts and sandals.

Her experiences and the way she expressed them were nearly identical despite being a bit more of a party girl than what Josie has described herself as. After she was done I showed her Josie's post and she agreed almost completely and said "very well said."

 

 A rave has a particular culture of its own assigned to it.  It's like going to a Dead show and being offended someone offering you marijuana. The response from the guy is unwarranted but ignorant people are ignorant people. Another example, I was out one night with a group of 6 guys and 2 were gay.  They wanted to go to a gay bar so we all agreed to go.  I was hit on. I didn't get pissed that I was hit on by the guy. Here I was, a guy, in a gay bar.  It really has a greater chance of happening than in a non-gay bar I would imagine.  I just politely declined, explained the situation and moved on.  It ended peaceably enough but I could imagine there might be a guy who would respond negatively to me in that situation.  To add some more context, I have been hit on by a guy in a non-gay bar as well.  I didn't respond any differently.  Just said, thanks, I'm flattered, not my thing and moved on.

 

And I don't mean this to diminish things but only to say that certain scenarios are going to result in certain actions being more prevalent than others.  Odds are that shirtless guy is a tool everywhere he goes.

[Hoss]

So there should be an expectation of sexual contact just because somebody attends a rave? Okay.

 

THAT'S the BS that leads people to believe in rape culture. There is no situation in which sexual contact should be expected aside from a situation set up exclusively for that (as in "hey, want to go to my place and have sex?" "Yes, let's go).

There shouldn't even be an expectation of sexual contact with an individual attending an 0rgy. What if they just want to watch? Unless somebody gives you permission or there's a mutual initiation then just don't do it.

 

The gay bar example is completely different. I was at a gay bar last weekend because it was a friend's birthday and she felt like going. I got hit on as well. I just kept moving along. If somebody would've attempted physical contact without my asking then it's different. They're not the same.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Hoss

[JJFIVEOH]

So there should be an expectation of sexual contact just because somebody attends a rave? Okay.

 

THAT'S the ###### that leads people to believe in rape culture. There is no situation in which sexual contact should be expected aside from a situation set up exclusively for that (as in "hey, want to go to my place and have sex?" "Yes, let's go).

There shouldn't even be an expectation of sexual contact with an individual attending an ######. What if they just want to watch? Unless somebody gives you permission or there's a mutual initiation then just don't do it.

 

The gay bar example is completely different. I was at a gay bar last weekend because it was a friend's birthday and she felt like going. I got hit on as well. I just kept moving along. If somebody would've attempted physical contact without my asking then it's different. They're not the same.

 

I'm not quite sure that is what was implied. You're jumping to conclusions that don't exist.

I appreciate the legal responses you provide to my questions.  And I have brought up the DUI question (I think it was in another thread).  My question specifically was that if two drunk people engage in sex and the next day the female regrets it there is often an investigation as she could not give consent.  But neither could the male by definition, so what happens?  Does the guy get to claim he also said no.. as far as he remembers?

 

 

 A rave has a particular culture of its own assigned to it.  It's like going to a Dead show and being offended someone offering you marijuana. The response from the guy is unwarranted but ignorant people are ignorant people. Another example, I was out one night with a group of 6 guys and 2 were gay.  They wanted to go to a gay bar so we all agreed to go.  I was hit on. I didn't get pissed that I was hit on by the guy. Here I was, a guy, in a gay bar.  It really has a greater chance of happening than in a non-gay bar I would imagine.  I just politely declined, explained the situation and moved on.  It ended peaceably enough but I could imagine there might be a guy who would respond negatively to me in that situation.  To add some more context, I have been hit on by a guy in a non-gay bar as well.  I didn't respond any differently.  Just said, thanks, I'm flattered, not my thing and moved on.

 

And I don't mean this to diminish things but only to say that certain scenarios are going to result in certain actions being more prevalent than others.  Odds are that shirtless guy is a tool everywhere he goes.

 

Excellent point. Society wants equality, they should be equally responsible.

[Hoss]

I'm not quite sure that is what was implied. You're jumping to conclusions that don't exist.

Maybe I'm wrong but I believe that's exactly what was implied in the following lines:

 

A rave has a particular culture of its own assigned to it. It's like going to a Dead show and being offended someone offering you marijuana.

 

certain scenarios are going to result in certain actions being more prevalent than others.

 

 

Now I like LTS so maybe he meant something else. But the above doesn't seem like it can be interpreted in many other ways.

[...]

I'm not quite sure that is what was implied. You're jumping to conclusions that don't exist.

 

This is the type of socio-political bullying that is getting so damn old.  A straw man is built up from a statement, and if you don't agree that the straw-man exists, you're a monster.

 

Sort of :

if (!$strawman || $strawman == false) {$poster = "monster"};

It's like the "wow, just wow" response where you are supposed to feel demoralized in some way because your thinking doesn't match that of the other(s).  You're supposed to make that connection, and if you don't, you're a monster. 

if (!agreement() || agreement() == false) {$poster = "monster"};

Edited August 19, 2015 by SiZzlEmeIsTEr

[JJFIVEOH]

Maybe I'm wrong but I believe that's exactly what was implied in the following lines:

 

 

 

 

Now I like LTS so maybe he meant something else. But the above doesn't seem like it can be interpreted in many other ways.

 

Maybe it's just me, and Sizzle gets the point, but you're forming your own conclusions based on what you want to hear. You give the impression that any person that even slightly questions the narrative is the devil and there is some underlying anti-femininst agenda.

 

Your effort is admirable, you obviously have a very strong politically correct Utopia conjured up in your mind. But you're trying to come up with situations where there needs to be a victim whether it's in this thread about rape or when we discussed race in the political thread.

Edited August 19, 2015 by JJFIVEOH