Patrick Kane: [Updated] D.A. Decides Not to Prosecute; NHL Determines Claims "Unfounded"

[sicknfla]

Guys /Girls this is getting way too deep. There is a rape culture and it goes both ways.

 

I mentioned way upthread to TrueBlue that maybe I would decide to tell him exactly how much i know about rape. Well I was raped. In the eyes of the law I am a rape victim.

 

Now i will get personal and explain the situation and you can maybe have a better idea of how "rape" is a subject that is very widespread. And quite honestly, it pisses me off to no end to read this thread and listen to some act like they know more than others.

 

When i was 13 I had sex with a 24 year old relative by marriage. This went on for almost half a year. Nobody but a few of my friends knew about this. Too them, and to me, it was cool. About 20 years later (I am 45) i finally confronted her at my grandmothers funeral. I think i was just at very emotional moment in life and had to ask WHY? I explained to her the impact that her stupid ass decision had on my life. I asked her how she could go day to day wondering if I would decide to make what happened public. 2 years later this lady committed suicide. Of course I have that too live with. At that time i told my mom. For all those years nobody knew. My mom was very close to her and when I told her she did not seem overly mad. It was more of a "you should have known better" What? ? I was 13 - show me a 13 year old boy that "would have known better".

 

Well, I know i am rambling and i am sorry, but, had I been a girl, most likely the reaction would have been very different. Rape is rape and as I have watched my kids hit that 13 year old age all I can think about is "how could anyone do that too an innocent 13 year old". How in gods name could a married 24 year old woman take from me what i should have experienced with someone i cared about at an age that was a little more appropriate.

 

So, this is why i don't agree with settlements. This is why I want a rape victim to stand up and do everything in their power to make the rapist accountable. However, I also know that this isn't the way it works. I also know that rape is something that, no matter how, when, or where it occurred, it will live with the victim their entire lives.

 

Maybe she was hanging on him, maybe she should have known better to go back to his house. Blah blah blah. If Kane did anything to her against her will then be needs to be hammered. I could care less how many Cups, how much money, or who his stupid ass lawyer is. And I sure as hell could care less about his EA Sports freaking cover.

 

Thanks for letting me ramble. I know it was all over the map but just trying to give a different perspective.

[JJFIVEOH]

Sizzle - Yikes man. You seem upset that Josie's post got great props and attention. Her post obviously has higher value than the others because she is explaining personal experience whereas most of us aren't experienced in the matter.

 

I didn't see his post that way at all. While Josie's post deserves merit and is important because this thread does lack the input of females, it is just as important as the rest. When it comes to sexual encounters there are two people involved. In most cases it's a woman and a man. In order to understand the psychology behind sexual abuse and rape both sides must be represented. 

 

By pointing this out doesn't degrade or belittle her post in any way. We all speak from personal experiences.

[shrader]

I didn't see his post that way at all. While Josie's post deserves merit and is important because this thread does lack the input of females, it is just as important as the rest. When it comes to sexual encounters there are two people involved. In most cases it's a woman and a man. In order to understand the psychology behind sexual abuse and rape both sides must be represented. 

 

By pointing this out doesn't degrade or belittle her post in any way. We all speak from personal experiences.

 

I'm with you on this one.  I did not see anything even remotely confrontational with sizzle's posts.  Unfortunately some people are just looking for a fight.

[3putt]

So I have a problem with this "drunk" thing.  There is a line of thinking that says a drunk woman is unable to give consent. This is presumably because the decision making ability is impaired due to alcohol. As such, the woman is not being held accountable for the decision to engage in sex.  At the same time there is a line of thinking that says a man who is equally as drunk should be able to make an unimpaired decision and is held accountable for the actions that occur. This creates a double standard as it relates to whether or not people are accountable for the decisions they make while under the influence of alcohol (or other drugs for that matter). What legitimate reason is there to explain that way of thinking?

 

This is not including situations where someone is drunk and at some point during a sexual encounter decides they want to end it. I am talking in a purely, two people got drunk scenario and the next day an accusation is made.

 

Do the majority of young men commit rape or engage in unwanted violent sex?  What am I missing about your rebuttal?  You are singling out an entire group of people as saying that they have a problem. I don't think there is anything that supports such a far reaching statement.  My point is about those people with diminished mental capacity who believe that the fantasy items they may see on a screen are transferable into the real world. In my mind it's not even fair to single out men for this.

 

For what it's worth, you do go on to tell me it's not fair to generalize about groups even though you, yourself, are doing the same thing in saying young men don't fully grasp the delineation.  While you think I am generalizing I don't agree with you.  I think it's fair to say that a large majority of situations where power and money are at play there are tendencies for people to ignore their moral compass.  I also believe and if I go hunting I will find the statistics that support that criminal activities in impoverished portions of society are also higher than in other areas.

 

People who are held up as idols develop a god-like complex and thus believe the rules don't apply to them.  Those who are fighting to survive don't care about the rules because following them results in death.  Both groups have greater reason to ignore the rules that normal society adheres to.  

 

Again.. so much more, but I should stop reading this group during work.  Back to work I go.

From a purely legal perspective, you consciously engage in the the act of imbibing, regardless of any level of addiction.  once you do you cannot rely on the logical outcome, i.e. impairment of judgement, to excuse subsequent actions.  This is the basis for DUI.  By your logic, the fact that you are impaired would excuse the act of getting behind the wheel.  In the eyes of the law it does not.  A person cannot consent when impaired, whether through substance abuse or natural lack of mental acuity.  A sober person cannot assume another sober person's consent.  That a perpetrator who is impaired acts if they can, they do so at their own peril.  

Edited August 18, 2015 by 3putt

[Hoss]

I've heard very similar reflections from just about every woman I've discussed this issue with. Now it's a small sample size (20 or so, most of which were in a single classroom), but there's a theme.

I often discuss some of the issues we discuss here with my girlfriend as she has insight I do not. I have never shared her insight on here as that's not my place, but she said she doesn't mind here.

Without telling her the contents of Josie's post she mentioned almost exactly the invisible boundaries she feels she needs to stay within. She explained a scenario where she went to a rave dressed in shorts and a shirt showing her belly. A man attempted to "grind" on her (essentially he thrust his pelvis into her back and she/her friend shoved him away and shouted at him). He then proceeded to call her a "hoe" and mentioned that she shouldn't dress that way if she didn't expect guys to approach her. This guy, on the other hand, was shirtless wearing nothing but shorts and sandals.

Her experiences and the way she expressed them were nearly identical despite being a bit more of a party girl than what Josie has described herself as. After she was done I showed her Josie's post and she agreed almost completely and said "very well said."

[JJFIVEOH]

Yes, it is. We're so uptight about sexual encounters that it's become a game for most men and some women. The "young banged HER" stuff gives men credits for having sex with certain women and further influences the men to make damn sure sex with them will occur. It further implants the "success through sex" mindset.

 

Not everybody is a victim.

[Hank]

I'm with you on this one.  I did not see anything even remotely confrontational with sizzle's posts.  Unfortunately some people are just looking for a fight.

Ditto

[That Aud Smell]

I'm with you on this one.  I did not see anything even remotely confrontational with sizzle's posts.  Unfortunately some people are just looking for a fight.

 

His remarks rubbed me the wrong way (for the reason I stated); I wasn't looking for an e-fight.

 

Now i will get personal and explain the situation 

 

God bless you, sir.

[LGR4GM]

I'm with you on this one.  I did not see anything even remotely confrontational with sizzle's posts.  Unfortunately some people are just looking for a fight.

Or some of us read his post and interpreted differently. His clarification helps

Guys /Girls this is getting way too deep. There is a rape culture and it goes both ways.

 

I mentioned way upthread to TrueBlue that maybe I would decide to tell him exactly how much i know about rape. Well I was raped. In the eyes of the law I am a rape victim.

 

Now i will get personal and explain the situation and you can maybe have a better idea of how "rape" is a subject that is very widespread. And quite honestly, it pisses me off to no end to read this thread and listen to some act like they know more than others.

 

When i was 13 I had sex with a 24 year old relative by marriage. This went on for almost half a year. Nobody but a few of my friends knew about this. Too them, and to me, it was cool. About 20 years later (I am 45) i finally confronted her at my grandmothers funeral. I think i was just at very emotional moment in life and had to ask WHY? I explained to her the impact that her stupid ass decision had on my life. I asked her how she could go day to day wondering if I would decide to make what happened public. 2 years later this lady committed suicide. Of course I have that too live with. At that time i told my mom. For all those years nobody knew. My mom was very close to her and when I told her she did not seem overly mad. It was more of a "you should have known better" What? ? I was 13 - show me a 13 year old boy that "would have known better".

 

Well, I know i am rambling and i am sorry, but, had I been a girl, most likely the reaction would have been very different. Rape is rape and as I have watched my kids hit that 13 year old age all I can think about is "how could anyone do that too an innocent 13 year old". How in gods name could a married 24 year old woman take from me what i should have experienced with someone i cared about at an age that was a little more appropriate.

 

So, this is why i don't agree with settlements. This is why I want a rape victim to stand up and do everything in their power to make the rapist accountable. However, I also know that this isn't the way it works. I also know that rape is something that, no matter how, when, or where it occurred, it will live with the victim their entire lives.

 

Maybe she was hanging on him, maybe she should have known better to go back to his house. Blah blah blah. If Kane did anything to her against her will then be needs to be hammered. I could care less how many Cups, how much money, or who his stupid ass lawyer is. And I sure as hell could care less about his EA Sports freaking cover.

 

Thanks for letting me ramble. I know it was all over the map but just trying to give a different perspective.

I'm sorry that happened. 

Edited August 18, 2015 by LGR4GM

[WildCard]

Uhm, she felt compelled to give her creds because she made the assumption I needed them for some reason. I was advising her that doing that was unnecessary.

 

But, yeah, that's cool, I'm the big bad guy beating up on the innocent girl.  Whatever.  See how this happens?

Her post is anecdotal and reflective.  Frankly, if I were to rank posts in this thread, I would give far more credit to those with facts and data.  But, even those posts are skewed with personal biases in a thread highly charged with biases.

 

Her experiences and the conclusions she has arrived to are hers alone.  Someone else with the same experiences would interpret them differently.  Neither is right or wrong - none are gospel.

It was a good post, and I thank her for sharing, but I agree with you here.

I didn't see his post that way at all. While Josie's post deserves merit and is important because this thread does lack the input of females, it is just as important as the rest. When it comes to sexual encounters there are two people involved. In most cases it's a woman and a man. In order to understand the psychology behind sexual abuse and rape both sides must be represented. 

 

By pointing this out doesn't degrade or belittle her post in any way. We all speak from personal experiences.

Agreed

[qwksndmonster]

Uhm, she felt compelled to give her creds because she made the assumption I needed them for some reason. I was advising her that doing that was unnecessary.

 

But, yeah, that's cool, I'm the big bad guy beating up on the innocent girl.  Whatever.  See how this happens?

 

Her post is anecdotal and reflective.  Frankly, if I were to rank posts in this thread, I would give far more credit to those with facts and data.  But, even those posts are skewed with personal biases in a thread highly charged with biases.

 

Her experiences and the conclusions she has arrived to are hers alone.  Someone else with the same experiences would interpret them differently.  Neither is right or wrong - none are gospel.

The reason why posters (myself included) are lending more credence to Josie's post is that we're discussing something that most of us don't have a lot of direct experience to draw upon.  Even more importantly, we're not women, so there's a fundamental difficulty that we have in perceiving the problems related to rape culture.

 

Josie has a tell.  Whenever she's about to drop a good post, she self deprecates aboots how her posts aren't all that.  So we also all want her to break out of that particular shell.  If she could post twice as much and d4rk half as much... 

Edited August 18, 2015 by immerman

[drnkirishone]

First, thanks for voicing your experience and opinion josie.

As for the stayimg within a lane of behavior. And being required to be safe and guarded talk that is going on. I see it as a problem with sexual repression still. Women are taught to be pure and innocent and yadda yadda and if they are not they are a sinner and amoral. Yet boys get a bit more free reign and learn what "woman" are suppose to be like. So now you have all levels of confusion. Is that lady simply conforming to societal pressure to be prudish? Is the guy simply being overbearing so the lady can feel she was tricked/pressured into being amoral?

If people felt they could express themselves sexually without society judging them a lot of the supposed "rape culture" would go away. because it would remove a fair amount of the guess work.

[shrader]

The reason why posters (myself included) are lending more credence to Josie's post is that we're discussing something that most of us don't have a lot of direct experience to draw upon.  Even more importantly, we're not women, so there's a fundamental difficulty that we have in perceiving the problems related to rape culture.

 

Josie has a tell.  Whenever she's about to drop a good post, she's self deprecates aboots how her posts aren't all that.  So we also all want her to break out of that particular shell.  If she could post twice as much and d4rk half as much... 

 

Men are still have of the picture here.  While we might not necessarily be able to see things from their point of view, they also can't see things from ours.  These types of conversations seem to imply that the thoughts of men carry absolutely no weight on this topic.  So yes, while it is helpful to hear things from that different point of view, that fully balanced conversation is never going to happen around here on this board.  We don't have the right demographics for that to ever happen.

 

Edit: And I forgot to add that the other posts still do carry plenty of value.  This so called culture can't be fully understood unless we listen to them all.

Edited August 18, 2015 by shrader

[nfreeman]

This makes you sound like an ######.

 

What do you mean what?  "we'd kinda need to know what specifically happened to know whether the wife's characterization of the events as rape was correct, right?" No we don't need to know that because if the wife felt raped it is marital rape. She clearly did if she spoke to her husband about it. So her "characterization" was correct.  That sentence of yours is ridiculous in numerous ways.

 

This is insane. 

 

Rape has a specific meaning.  There are plenty of physical encounters that fall outside that meaning.

 

If a person feels he/she was robbed, does that automatically mean a robbery occurred?

 

 

Absolutely.  You just don't seem to get it.

 

What if it were your daughter?

 

If my daughter were seduced by some prep school douchebag engaged in a conquest contest, I would be disappointed with her judgment, but I certainly wouldn't want her to claim she was raped. 

[qwksndmonster]

Men are still have of the picture here.  While we might not necessarily be able to see things from their point of view, they also can't see things from ours.  These types of conversations seem to imply that the thoughts of men carry absolutely no weight on this topic.  So yes, while it is helpful to hear things from that different point of view, that fully balanced conversation is never going to happen around here on this board.  We don't have the right demographics for that to ever happen.

This is what I'm getting at.  Most internet forums are 90% + dudes from what I can tell from personal experience.  I wasn't implying that any of the many great posts from males in this thread are less important.

[darksabre]

The reason why posters (myself included) are lending more credence to Josie's post is that we're discussing something that most of us don't have a lot of direct experience to draw upon.  Even more importantly, we're not women, so there's a fundamental difficulty that we have in perceiving the problems related to rape culture.

 

Josie has a tell.  Whenever she's about to drop a good post, she self deprecates aboots how her posts aren't all that.  So we also all want her to break out of that particular shell.  If she could post twice as much and d4rk half as much... 

:P

Guys /Girls this is getting way too deep. There is a rape culture and it goes both ways.

 

I mentioned way upthread to TrueBlue that maybe I would decide to tell him exactly how much i know about rape. Well I was raped. In the eyes of the law I am a rape victim.

 

Now i will get personal and explain the situation and you can maybe have a better idea of how "rape" is a subject that is very widespread. And quite honestly, it pisses me off to no end to read this thread and listen to some act like they know more than others.

 

When i was 13 I had sex with a 24 year old relative by marriage. This went on for almost half a year. Nobody but a few of my friends knew about this. Too them, and to me, it was cool. About 20 years later (I am 45) i finally confronted her at my grandmothers funeral. I think i was just at very emotional moment in life and had to ask WHY? I explained to her the impact that her stupid ass decision had on my life. I asked her how she could go day to day wondering if I would decide to make what happened public. 2 years later this lady committed suicide. Of course I have that too live with. At that time i told my mom. For all those years nobody knew. My mom was very close to her and when I told her she did not seem overly mad. It was more of a "you should have known better" What? ? I was 13 - show me a 13 year old boy that "would have known better".

 

Well, I know i am rambling and i am sorry, but, had I been a girl, most likely the reaction would have been very different. Rape is rape and as I have watched my kids hit that 13 year old age all I can think about is "how could anyone do that too an innocent 13 year old". How in gods name could a married 24 year old woman take from me what i should have experienced with someone i cared about at an age that was a little more appropriate.

 

So, this is why i don't agree with settlements. This is why I want a rape victim to stand up and do everything in their power to make the rapist accountable. However, I also know that this isn't the way it works. I also know that rape is something that, no matter how, when, or where it occurred, it will live with the victim their entire lives.

 

Maybe she was hanging on him, maybe she should have known better to go back to his house. Blah blah blah. If Kane did anything to her against her will then be needs to be hammered. I could care less how many Cups, how much money, or who his stupid ass lawyer is. And I sure as hell could care less about his EA Sports freaking cover.

 

Thanks for letting me ramble. I know it was all over the map but just trying to give a different perspective.

 

Thank you for this post. I appreciate your candidness. I get the feeling there are a lot more stories out there like yours than we'd like to think. 

 

I am sorry for what you went through. 

[TrueBlueGED]

This is insane.

 

Rape has a specific meaning. There are plenty of physical encounters that fall outside that meaning.

 

If a person feels he/she was robbed, does that automatically mean a robbery occurred?

Under what circumstances would a woman think she was raped, but it wasn't actually a rape?

[Sabres Fan in NS]

nfreeman,

 

I like and respect you a great deal, but your reply to my post simply leaves me without words.  Maybe something will come to me later, maybe not.

 

-----

 

sicknfla,

 

Thank you for sharing.

 

I am sorry that you have had to carry that all these years and for what happened, but especially sorry for your mother's reaction.  I pray that God will provide some peace and tranquility in your life.  For what it's worth, a guy in a small city on Canada's east coast will be keeping you in his thoughts and prayers.

[TrueBlueGED]

But isn't that just the sexist culture we are in right now (huge issue)? Why the rape term?

 

(Sincere questions lol)

I don't have an especially good answer for you. I think it's probably to separate out acts into degrees of severity. Rape probably falls under the sexism umbrella, but it's still kind of its own thing. Intertwined yet separate. For example, saying "Look at how she's dressed, she wants to be looked at" and "Look at how she dressed, she wants to get laid tonight" are both sexist comments, but I think we could agree the latter has a different feel to it.

[shrader]

This is what I'm getting at. Most internet forums are 90% + dudes from what I can tell from personal experience. I wasn't implying that any of the many great posts from males in this thread are less important.

It's not you, just the classic internet thought that Josie just won the internet. And that's no shot at you, Josie. There's just rarely a case where a thread should be finished with one specific post.

Under what circumstances would a woman think she was raped, but it wasn't actually a rape?

Was it this thread where someone posted about a school supporting a rape complaint in a case of regret after a significant period of dating? I think those are the cases that concern nfreeman.

 

God I hope it was this board. If not my post looks really bad.

[That Aud Smell]

sicknfla,

 

I am sorry that you have had to carry that all these years and for what happened, but especially sorry for your mother's reaction.  I pray that God will provide some peace and tranquility in your life.  For what it's worth, a guy in a small city on Canada's east coast will be keeping you in his thoughts and prayers.

 

That gave me a warm in my heart.

[TrueBlueGED]

It's not you, just the classic internet thought that Josie just won the internet. And that's no shot at you, Josie. There's just rarely a case where a thread should be finished with one specific post.

 

Was it this thread where someone posted about a school supporting a rape complaint in a case of regret after a significant period of dating? I think those are the cases that concern nfreeman.

 

God I hope it was this board. If not my post looks really bad.

I honestly don't remember. Was it a case where the regret caused her to actually believe she was raped later on, or it merely caused her to accuse that she was raped?

[sicknfla]

nfreeman,

 

I like and respect you a great deal, but your reply to my post simply leaves me without words. Maybe something will come to me later, maybe not.

 

-----

 

sicknfla,

 

Thank you for sharing.

 

I am sorry that you have had to carry that all these years and for what happened, but especially sorry for your mother's reaction. I pray that God will provide some peace and tranquility in your life. For what it's worth, a guy in a small city on Canada's east coast will be keeping you in his thoughts and prayers.

I appreciate all the kind words. Kind of weird that of all places I kind of let that one out in here. I just really want everyone to understand this is a very broad and touchy topic. Nobody is right and wrong in this thread. Rape happens in many different ways. It affects people in many different ways.

 

My ordeal doesn't even compare to what a woman must go through. Let's face it - at the time in my mind i wasn't a victim. Again, in a crazy way, thanks for all the discussion in this thread. Kind of helped in a way that is hard to describe.

[shrader]

I honestly don't remember. Was it a case where the regret caused her to actually believe she was raped later on, or it merely caused her to accuse that she was raped?

I'm not really sure on that either. But I think it's more about how someone can start to believe something if they're told it enough. If people start to label that scenario as rape, some are going to start to believe it.

[nfreeman]

Under what circumstances would a woman think she was raped, but it wasn't actually a rape?

Was it this thread where someone posted about a school supporting a rape complaint in a case of regret after a significant period of dating? I think those are the cases that concern nfreeman.

 

 

I'm not really sure on that either. But I think it's more about how someone can start to believe something if they're told it enough. If people start to label that scenario as rape, some are going to start to believe it.

 

Shrader has it -- the point is that definition creep can result in regrettable/otherwise problematic sexual encounters being misclassified as rape.