Patrick Kane: [Updated] D.A. Decides Not to Prosecute; NHL Determines Claims "Unfounded"

[Eleven]

Just as many universities are completely dismissive of any kind of meaningful pursuit of rape allegations as well. There's a lot of confusion when it comes to how to treat this stuff and I don't think anyone is doing it correctly. 

 

Sure, but still, nfreeman's concern for his son is reasonable.

[LGR4GM]

I would like to hear some of our female posters views on this if they care to share. Chz, Josie, Bio?  Others. 

 

A lot of universities have both moved to a guilty-until-proven-innocent system and suspension of meaningful due process when it comes to sexual assault allegations.  If I had a son, I'd share nfreeman's fears on this.

 

Someone told me last night that Laurence Tribe wrote a letter to Harvard administrators condemning its new system.  I'm looking for it.

 

EDIT:  Here we go:  http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2014/10/15/law-profs-criticize-new-policy/  That is likely an article about the letter in question; Tribe's name is not mentioned.

 

EDIT 2:  And here is the letter:  http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2014/10/14/rethink-harvard-sexual-harassment-policy/HFDDiZN7nU2UwuUuWMnqbM/story.html

"A lot of universities" is a very vague and misguided use of terms.  Unless you can say something more precise or show how many universities have adopted this approach saying "a lot" is basically meaningless. 

 

"A lot of universities" have not adopted the new approach to dealing with sexual assault.  See I can say random vagaries as well. Doesn't make them true or false.

 

Also men/boys can be the victims of sexual assault. Just something to keep in mind. 

 

 

There are girls under 18 who like to have sex and look older than 18.

and your point?

[Eleven]

I would like to hear some of our female posters views on this if they care to share. Chz, Josie, Bio?  Others. 

 

"A lot of universities" is a very vague and misguided use of terms.  Unless you can say something more precise or show how many universities have adopted this approach saying "a lot" is basically meaningless. 

 

"A lot of universities" have not adopted the new approach to dealing with sexual assault.  See I can say random vagaries as well. Doesn't make them true or false.

 

Also men/boys can be the victims of sexual assault. Just something to keep in mind. 

 

 

and your point?

 

I specifically wrote "a lot" because I have no idea of the quantity or percentage, but I do know that it is "a lot."  Vagueness has a purpose.

[nfreeman]

Do you think your son has a responsibility to watch out for himself though? To make decisions that would protect him from being accused of something that might not be easily dismissed when facts are presented? 

 

He and every other male on the planet has a responsibility not to have sex with a woman without her consent.  But this question -- like many questions you pose -- is divorced from reality.  You ignore the fact that in many colleges, an accusation is more or less taken as truth and there is no process designed to determine what actually happened.  The process is instead designed to protect the accuser.  You also ignore the fact that in many cases there is simply nothing that the man can do to prevent a false accusation from occurring.

 

 

You needn't fill his head with anything. He's a good guy, and, barring some weird and rare misfortune (like being struck with a PC lightning bolt), he will be fine.

 

Edit: Unless, of course, he attends a college that has done away with due process. Yikes. 

 

The witch hunts to which you refer are hardly some sort of pandemic. They get a lot of run in the media because they get people all exercised. To the extent there are over corrections, they are in response to a very real and entrenched set of problems that have caused (and are still causing) many 1000s of women to be mistreated and ignored.

 

Edit: Is this true? Do allegations of sexual assault commonly get a male student automatically suspended from University classes/activities?

 

 

Were you called that?

 

Based on the edits, I assume you've seen that the pandemic on college campuses is indeed quite real.

 

And yes, I was called a misogynist by a poster I respect a great deal, notwithstanding his misguided political views.

 

Just as many universities are completely dismissive of any kind of meaningful pursuit of rape allegations as well. There's a lot of confusion when it comes to how to treat this stuff and I don't think anyone is doing it correctly. 

 

Really?  Please name one.

[JJFIVEOH]

attaching "culture" to the issue is polarizing and quite frankly, I find using the word a disservice because it probably creates more backlash than it should be. I don't live in a rape culture. Others might. I just read a list of 25 examples of our "rape culture" and I pretty much have no experience/exposure to any of them. I presume nfreeman lives a similar existence.

 

What I do know is that asking people to stop talking is the opposite of what should happen. When is the last time anyone changed their mind in the absence of evidence and debate? How is someone going to move from "She shouldn't dress that way" to "It's my responsibility" unless their opinions are voiced and then challenged?

 

And that's the real danger that has been attempted to be foisted upon us by a gaggle do-gooders. They are too enamored with their own goodness and self-righteousness to actually see they are unwittingly a part of the problem - not the solution they claim to be.

 

What is the problem and who are you referring to? 

[LGR4GM]

Sure, but still, nfreeman's concern for his son is reasonable.

Not really.  He should be more concerned for his daughter.  She is more likely to be the victim of a sexual assault than his son is of being falsely accused.

 

And because I am motivated... Rape and Sexual Assault Victimization Among College Age Females 1995-2013 from the Bureau of Justice Statistics.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rsavcaf9513.pdf

[nfreeman]

I would like to hear some of our female posters views on this if they care to share. Chz, Josie, Bio?  Others. 

 

"A lot of universities" is a very vague and misguided use of terms.  Unless you can say something more precise or show how many universities have adopted this approach saying "a lot" is basically meaningless. 

 

"A lot of universities" have not adopted the new approach to dealing with sexual assault.  See I can say random vagaries as well. Doesn't make them true or false.

 

Also men/boys can be the victims of sexual assault. Just something to keep in mind. 

 

 

and your point?

 

You lookin' to keep GoDD company in the penalty box?

[Eleven]

Reading a little bit on Tribe's letter.

 

Man. That is some stuff.

 

And if frickin' Harvard's bungling the issues - what hope can I hold out for, say, Wichita State or Bowling Green?

 

 

Wichita State's nickname is the Shockers.  I would say not much hope.

[LGR4GM]

I specifically wrote "a lot" because I have no idea of the quantity or percentage, but I do know that it is "a lot."  Vagueness has a purpose.

A lot indicates more than half does it not?

[Eleven]

Not really.  He should be more concerned for his daughter.  She is more likely to be the victim of a sexual assault than his son is of being falsely accused.

 

And because I am motivated... Rape and Sexual Assault Victimization Among College Age Females 1995-2013 from the Bureau of Justice Statistics.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rsavcaf9513.pdf

 

Dude, we all know that rape on college campuses (and off-campus) is HUGE problem.  Chill.

A lot indicates more than half does it not?

 

No.  The English word for that is a "majority."  If I say that I have "a lot of M&Ms," does that mean more than half?

Edited August 7, 2015 by Eleven

[LGR4GM]

You lookin' to keep GoDD company in the penalty box?

For stating something that is a fact?  Men and Boys can be victims of sexual assault.  I made no further hints or suggestions, it was simply something to keep in mind in the context of our current debate.  We keep saying Girls/Women when we might want to say people because although statistically lower, men/boys can and are victims of sexual assault.

Dude, we all know that rape on college campuses (and off-campus) is HUGE problem.  Chill.

 

No.  The English word for that is a "majority."  If I say that I have "a lot of M&Ms," does that mean more than half?

Okay, a lot of college campuses have not changed their policies to guilty until proven innocent.

Dude, we all know that rape on college campuses (and off-campus) is HUGE problem.  Chill.

 

No.  The English word for that is a "majority."  If I say that I have "a lot of M&Ms," does that mean more than half?

I am actually quite calm but I appreciate your concern.

[Eleven]

For stating something that is a fact?  Men and Boys can be victims of sexual assault.  I made no further hints or suggestions, it was simply something to keep in mind in the context of our current debate.  We keep saying Girls/Women when we might want to say people because although statistically lower, men/boys can and are victims of sexual assault.

Okay, a lot of college campuses have not changed their policies to guilty until proven innocent.

 

I believe that is also correct.

[Hoss]

You lookin' to keep GoDD company in the penalty box?

What in the world?

[That Aud Smell]

I specifically wrote "a lot" because I have no idea of the quantity or percentage, but I do know that it is "a lot."  Vagueness has a purpose.

 

And, listen: If Hahhvahd is bumblefunking its way through the matter, that is concerning.

 

Based on the edits, I assume you've seen that the pandemic on college campuses is indeed quite real.

 

Well. I see that there are some issues and problems. It's a tangled ball of yarn. As someone else noted, I'd remain far more concerned for my daughter than I would my son. My son's a good kid, and he's not apt to put himself in a bad situation. Could happen? Sure. But not likely.

 

With the girls? Cripes. My oldest is off to college in 2 years and is already talking like "don't worry, Daddy, I know to keep a white plastic lid on my solo cup [they make these now!], and I'll have the date rape drug nail polish on [they make that too!]."

 

Wichita State's nickname is the Shockers.  I would say not much hope.

 

You muhfugger.

Also men/boys can be the victims of sexual assault. Just something to keep in mind. 

You lookin' to keep GoDD company in the penalty box?

What in the world?

 

Given the context, that was sorta weird and gratuitous sublty amusing.

Edited August 7, 2015 by That Aud Smell

[nfreeman]

For stating something that is a fact?  Men and Boys can be victims of sexual assault.  I made no further hints or suggestions, it was simply something to keep in mind in the context of our current debate.  We keep saying Girls/Women when we might want to say people because although statistically lower, men/boys can and are victims of sexual assault.

 

I was just joking you hoser.

 

And while you're probably right that I should be more worried about my daughter than my son (although the data you linked to actually showed a hearteningly low incidence of sexual assaults against students), I find it infuriating that this risk to my son is so completely unnecessary and avoidable.

[...]

and your point?

 

Well, I think some people are acting like all girls under 18 are repulsed and traumatized by "having sex", which isn't true.  So, the fact that there are girls out there who are looking and makes it difficult for younger men to make an appropriate judgment makes matter cloudy, IMHO.  And I'm not talking about Kane at this point, it seems we've moved beyond talking about his situation specifically.

 

Anyway, clearly I understand and respect the law as it is, however there can be situations, like anything in life, where conforming to the law isn't in reality a black and white, cut and dry matter.

 

Without having any research to back up the thought, it would seem to me that perhaps one reason female jurors could be hard to convince in cases like this is because they know what it's like to be that age and female, and that not all females walk the line right down the middle.  Just like, as a male, I know exactly what it was like to be in my late teens and, honestly, I don't know how much of the benefit of the doubt I could give a dude. 

 

Did society freak out when Fast Times at Ridgemont High was released? I was too young.

[LGR4GM]

With the girls? Cripes. My oldest is off to college in 2 years and is already talking like "don't worry, Daddy, I know to keep a white plastic lid on my solo cup [they make these now!], and I'll have the date rape drug nail polish on [they make that too!]."

 

Given the context, that was sorta weird and gratuitous.

The fact we live in a country where we think needing date rape drug nail polish is normal, that worries me.  Also good for your daughter for being smart. Her friends will hopefully be good people who will watch out for her.

[Stoner]

What in the world?

Odd, innit?

[MattPie]

Not really.  He should be more concerned for his daughter.  She is more likely to be the victim of a sexual assault than his son is of being falsely accused.

 

And because I am motivated... Rape and Sexual Assault Victimization Among College Age Females 1995-2013 from the Bureau of Justice Statistics.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rsavcaf9513.pdf

This isn't really a topic for humor, but I can't help but laugh that the server is "www.BJs.gov".

[That Aud Smell]

The fact we live in a country where we think needing date rape drug nail polish is normal, that worries me.  Also good for your daughter for being smart. Her friends will hopefully be good people who will watch out for her.

 

I could not get over how cazh (truncated "casual") she was about it. Made me cry a little. Later. Privately.

[LGR4GM]

This isn't really a topic for humor, but I can't help but laugh that the server is "www.BJs.gov".

that actual is a little humorous.  also on a lighter note, am I the only person super glad that P Kane is not a Sabre right now? 

[That Aud Smell]

I was just joking you hoser.

 

And while you're probably right that I should be more worried about my daughter than my son (although the data you linked to actually showed a hearteningly low incidence of sexual assaults against students), I find it infuriating that this risk to my son is so completely unnecessary and avoidable.

 

Well. The risk arises from measures that were not unbidden. There was an actual pandemic (or at least a scourge) that needed/-s fixing.

that actual is a little humorous.  also on a lighter note, am I the only person super glad that P Kane is not a Sabre right now? 

 

You are not.

[darksabre]

He and every other male on the planet has a responsibility not to have sex with a woman without her consent.  But this question -- like many questions you pose -- is divorced from reality.  You ignore the fact that in many colleges, an accusation is more or less taken as truth and there is no process designed to determine what actually happened.  The process is instead designed to protect the accuser.  You also ignore the fact that in many cases there is simply nothing that the man can do to prevent a false accusation from occurring.

 

 

 

Based on the edits, I assume you've seen that the pandemic on college campuses is indeed quite real.

 

And yes, I was called a misogynist by a poster I respect a great deal, notwithstanding his misguided political views.

 

 

Really?  Please name one.

 

I don't think this is an established fact though, is it? I understand that it occurs, but is this not a little bit hyperbolic?  

[nfreeman]

I don't think this is an established fact though, is it? I understand that it occurs, but is this not a little bit hyperbolic?  

 

You should read about the incidents at Duke, UVA and Columbia.  The accused male students in those cases were railroaded despite zero evidence of rape and mountains of evidence to the contrary.

 

Also, here's an article about a recent court ruling that found that UC-San Diego's sexual assault hearing process is unfair:  http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/lessons-from-the-california-court-ruling-campus-sex-assault-hearing-unfair/article/2568420

 

 

the accused student wasn't able to defend himself through meaningful cross-examination, as the questions he wanted to ask had to be approved by the hearing chair. Most of the accused students weren't asked, even those dealing with relevant information like how the accuser acted after the alleged rape. When a question was asked, the accused student was given no opportunity to follow-up.

 

Accused students are afforded extremely limited due process rights. This makes a mockery of the justice system. Students must pay for their own lawyers – if they're even allowed to have one. The lawyer, if allowed to be present, cannot speak on the student's behalf. Witnesses and evidence are disallowed on the whims of hearing panels set up by the university's Title IX office, which is supposed to act as a victim's advocate. Guilt, it seems, is assumed from the start.

[darksabre]

You should read about the incidents at Duke, UVA and Columbia.  The accused male students in those cases were railroaded despite zero evidence of rape and mountains of evidence to the contrary.

 

Also, here's an article about a recent court ruling that found that UC-San Diego's sexual assault hearing process is unfair:  http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/lessons-from-the-california-court-ruling-campus-sex-assault-hearing-unfair/article/2568420

 

 

I'm fully aware of all of those cases. Celebrated incidents of crimes like this are notorious in this country. How about "Wilding" and the Central Park Jogger case from the 80s? The media feeds off of it. 

 

False accusations happen. I won't contend they don't. But this is not an epidemic.