Patrick Kane: [Updated] D.A. Decides Not to Prosecute; NHL Determines Claims "Unfounded"

[JJFIVEOH]

what if she was the busgirl?  She'd be there legally correct.  

 

It's possible but highly unlikely. And if so, she'd have to do it on company time because most bars won't allow an employee that is minor to partake in any after hours activities

 

Could be the parents. Could be her temperament. Nature/Nurture argument in my opinion. I've seen plenty of families where one sister is always monogamous and the other sleeps around. Again, teenagers do what they want.

 

Of course they're all different. It could be the parents, it could be the girl. Truth is, IF this hypothetical is true (and it's not highly unlikely) today's society will want to blame somebody. I really don't think there should be any blame in this case but if there were it should fall on the parents. If Kane was in an over 21 establishment, was with a girl that lied about her age then it's really tough to place any blame on him. You also can't blame the girl because by law she's not old enough to make an educated decision. That leaves the parents. I also don't think the parents should be at fault but if there is anybody that should be held accountable in this hypothetical situation, it should be the parents.

 

Just to make sure we have one thing straight. I'm not condoning what Kane did or what may be other hypotheticals. If he did force himself on her, he should hang (not literally), same goes for if he knew she was a minor. But if this hypothetical holds true this should be a situation that is deemed an unfortunate incident and all parties agree to move on. There doesn't always need to be somebody to place blame on.

 

Don't be obtuse. I'm not telling you what you can talk about. 

 

But recognize that when a hypothetical situation that dismisses the seriousness of rape allegations is presented in greater detail than admission of disgust with the alleged rape, that the person making that statement has decided where they desire to apply the most weight. In wookies case, his weight is behind crafting plausible ways to dismiss rape allegations. And that, plain and simple, is f*cked up. 

 

Look at you, crafting more things into a dismissive narrative. 

 

It's obvious you're convinced we're all trying to dismiss what happened. If you can't take my word for it, I'm pretty much wasting my time.

 

You err on the side of caution. 

 

Look, I know some 16/17 year olds can look 18-19-20, but using even a slightly critical eye you can absolutely tell when a girl is young, even if you can't peg the exact age. Probably sooner, but once you start hitting those mid-20s and have a job and real responsibility, it's time to start avoiding those girls. This is especially true if you're in a committed relationship and have a heck of a lot to lose. Adults have a responsibility to think with the right head, and if they choose to think with the other one...well, then that's on them.

 

I have to disagree with the mid 20's scenario. I know just as many people that are with a spouse/significant other where the difference in ages are far greater than four or five years that have great relationships. Should he grow up? Maybe. But it's besides the point. If/when it ends up in court there won't be a defense saying "this rape never would have happened if he was doing what some consider to be the morally perfect timeline of life".

 

Hey I live in a place where I occasionally get hit on by girls under 21 at bars.  I use my adult brain, instead of my penis, and don't take them home or buy them drinks or give them my number.  17yr old girls are clumsy compared to a full grown woman when it comes to how they talk to guys, how they drink, and how they act. 

 

That's one way to look at it. Personally I think most kids these days are much more sheltered than they used to be. If anything people that are 21 are much more immature. They might be smarter and might dress older, but they're not as mature. In my opinion 21 year olds are much more similar than they used to be so if I came across a woman that is overly mature Kane might think she's even older. Who knows, but I just don't see 21 year olds being mature.

 

I would bet this happens much more often than we think, I'm guessing there are more than a handful of pro athletes that have had sex with a minor without even knowing it.

But if I can't craft hypothetical dismissive narratives about them then what are they even for?

No snark there...............

Wait, so there isn't a definintive line for every human where everything magically changes on your 17th, 18th and 21st birthday? :rolleyes:

Edited August 7, 2015 by JJFIVEOH

[Weave]

JJ, It is perfectly legal for an underage to be at a bar with or without parents/guardians.  No "fault" of a parent there.  

 

As far as I am concerned blaming her parents for this is a very, very, very short step away from saying she brought it on herself.  After all, if she didn't bring it on herself, what are we faulting the parents for?

[WildCard]

This is the ONLY crime where half the people immediately jump to creating scenarios where it is the Victim's fault.

 

The Misogyny is palpable.

 

When someone has their car stolen, we don't jump to "they may have left their keys in the car and a note that says 'free ride'"

 

When someone is hit by a drunk driver, we don't jump to "they probably jumped out into traffic"

 

When someone is mugged, we don't jump to "I'll bet they just gave the guy the money, and then wanted it back afterwards."

 

I will thought police the ###### out of misogyny, intentional or not, conscious or subconscious, because I love women and I'm absolutely sick and tired of so many men having such contempt for them.

Misogyny? Yeah, because men can't be raped. 

 

 

Echoing the support other's are giving for Whiskey's post. There is no wiggle room for jokes or assumptions about a victim in a rape case. If you have to hesitate to say it then don't.

Jokes, maybe not. Assumption? Look at the way you started this thread. It's a message board FFS, 80% of the stuff on here is opinions and assumptions

[JJFIVEOH]

Sensitive or not, I don't believe in attempting to silence and police people's opinions and thoughts.

 

I agree, this is one of the most civilized forums I've been on. Rarely does anybody here cross the line, I don't think getting on a moral high horse and telling people what they think is unacceptable to talk about is the way to go.

[WildCard]

My grave concern in this thread is that any potential defense of the accused is being silenced under the guise of "sensitivity". If people want to speculate, they should be able to. 

Agreed. 

[darksabre]

I never insinuated anything. If what I did was insinuate, then what you did was way more direct. That was my point for posting that.

 

My grave concern in this thread is that any potential defense of the accused is being silenced under the guise of "sensitivity". If people want to speculate, they should be able to. 

 

As for "erring on the side of caution". That's not my job. I'm not a lawyer or a police officer. I believe in letting people speak what's on their minds. Not quieting them.

 

Why do you need to defend the accused? What has occurred here that requires you to defend him? He is presumed innocent, no? So what is the purpose? 

[JJFIVEOH]

JJ, It is perfectly legal for an underage to be at a bar with or without parents/guardians.  No "fault" of a parent there.  

 

As far as I am concerned blaming her parents for this is a very, very, very short step away from saying she brought it on herself.  After all, if she didn't bring it on herself, what are we faulting the parents for?

 

If I'm a parent there is no way in hell I'm letting my kid in a bar late at night. I'm not sure about the laws in NY, but in some states there are different laws for bars. Some don't allow anybody under 21 in the establishment, some are classified differently based on the amount of tables to bar space if they happen to serve food, etc...........

 

I'm not placing the blame on the parents. What I'm saying is, if Kane legitimately thought she was old enough, if she lied to him and led him to believe he wasn't doing anything illegal........... then the parents can't possibly find him at fault for what happened. If the parents were that concerned they wouldn't have let her go to a bar. Now on this I may be wrong, it was a bar in Eden........ so I'm going to assume it wasn't a TGIF.

[WildCard]

Why do you need to defend the accused? What has occurred here that requires you to defend him? He is presumed innocent, no? So what is the purpose? 

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/exonerated-of-rape--brian-banks-realizing-nfl-dream-%E2%80%93-in-different-capacity-005927279-nfl.html

[That Aud Smell]

There's also a difference between trying to police or silence, and stating contrary or opposing or diverging opinions/views.

 

We oughta stick to the latter.

[Weave]

If I'm a parent there is no way in hell I'm letting my kid in a bar late at night. I'm not sure about the laws in NY, but in some states there are different laws for bars. Some don't allow anybody under 21 in the establishment, some are classified differently based on the amount of tables to bar space if they happen to serve food, etc...........

 

I'm not placing the blame on the parents. What I'm saying is, if Kane legitimately thought she was old enough, if she lied to him and led him to believe he wasn't doing anything illegal........... then the parents can't possibly find him at fault for what happened. If the parents were that concerned they wouldn't have let her go to a bar. Now on this I may be wrong, it was a bar in Eden........ so I'm going to assume it wasn't a TGIF.

 

That's very idealistic.  I assume you don't have kids.  Certainly not teens.

 

And Evans was initially reported, not Eden.  Eden is farm country.  Current reports have him partying in downtown Buffalo that night so Evans was probably not accurate too.

Edited August 7, 2015 by weave

[JJFIVEOH]

That's very idealistic.  I assume you don't have kids.  Certainly not teens.

 

How is that idealistic?

[Weave]

How is that idealistic?

 

Short of physically restraining your kids, they will get into trouble along the way.  It just sort of happens. 

[LGR4GM]

If I'm a parent there is no way in hell I'm letting my kid in a bar late at night. I'm not sure about the laws in NY, but in some states there are different laws for bars. Some don't allow anybody under 21 in the establishment, some are classified differently based on the amount of tables to bar space if they happen to serve food, etc...........

 

I'm not placing the blame on the parents. What I'm saying is, if Kane legitimately thought she was old enough, if she lied to him and led him to believe he wasn't doing anything illegal........... then the parents can't possibly find him at fault for what happened. If the parents were that concerned they wouldn't have let her go to a bar. Now on this I may be wrong, it was a bar in Eden........ so I'm going to assume it wasn't a TGIF.

A 16 yr old girl is deemed by law to not be able to consent to sexual intercourse with someone in their 20's.  So yes, her parents can blame him, yes he can and should be prosecuted.  At 16, all the girl had to do was say, "Hey mom, I am staying tonight over at Vanessa's.  The girls are getting together and we are going to have a pool party. I will see you tomorrow." Then her and Vanessa go to the bar to see what it's all about... simple.

 

That said, we don't know any of the facts other than he was part of the investigation. For all we know some friend of his could be a real douche and Kane is just getting dragged into it.

Edited August 7, 2015 by LGR4GM

[JJFIVEOH]

Short of physically restraining your kids, they will get into trouble along the way.  It just sort of happens. 

 

I understand it happens, I don't need to have kids to know that. I also understand that some parents just don't give a damn what their kids do.

[Weave]

I understand it happens, I don't need to have kids to know that. I also understand that some parents just don't give a damn what their kids do.

 

It more than just happens.  Every kid gets into some trouble. Sometimes it is more than just a little.  it's not something you can blame a parent for.  it is part of growing up.  

 

And like I said earlier, if you are going to blame the parent, you are de facto blaming the accuser.  "She shouldn't have dressed that way" is thinly veiled by saying it as "her mother shouldn't have let her out of the house dressed that way"..

 

I'll add.....  I am going to defend that girl being in a bar.  My 17 yr old son has been in them without me.  And many have events that are all ages events.  Being in a bar or a club as a minor should not be presumed as a bad thing.  

Edited August 7, 2015 by weave

[JJFIVEOH]

It more than just happens.  Every kid gets into some trouble. Sometimes it is more than just a little.  it's not something you can blame a parent for.  it is part of growing up.  

 

And like I said earlier, if you are going to blame the parent, you are de facto blaming the accuser.  "She shouldn't have dressed that way" is thinly veiled by saying it as "her mother shouldn't have let her out of the house dressed that way"..

 

I'll add.....  I am going to defend that girl being in a bar.  My 17 yr old son has been in them without me.  And many have events that are all ages events.  Being in a bar or a club as a minor should not be presumed as a bad thing.  

 

I'm all for kids getting out of the house. I'm all for kids getting into trouble. It helps them later in life. I think kids today are sheltered, pampered and not nearly ready for reality like they used to be. I said back on post #276 that I don't place the blame solely on the parents. What I did say is IF this is what happened then it needs to be chalked up as an unfortunate incident that all parties need to learn from.

 

What is it you want me to say?

[LGR4GM]

I'm all for kids getting out of the house. I'm all for kids getting into trouble. It helps them later in life. I think kids today are sheltered, pampered and not nearly ready for reality like they used to be. I said back on post #276 that I don't place the blame solely on the parents. What I did say is IF this is what happened then it needs to be chalked up as an unfortunate incident that all parties need to learn from.

 

What is it you want me to say?

I want to make sure you understand, what it sounds like to me, you just said... "Statutory rape is an unfortunate incident all parties need to learn from" Is that what you are saying?

[Weave]

I think Liger summed it up nicely.

 

And, frankly, you backpedalled to this position. You were making statements about charging the parents.

Edited August 7, 2015 by weave

[JJFIVEOH]

I want to make sure you understand, what it sounds like to me, you just said... "Statutory rape is an unfortunate incident all parties need to learn from" Is that what you are saying?

 

No, that's nowhere near what I was saying. If he knowingly had sex with a minor and/or forced himself on her, then hang him. I've mentioned that several times know, by the way.

 

If he was led on, in an adult establishment, by a woman/girl that lied about her age................. how can you possibly find Kane guilty? I've asked over and over now how anybody proposes avoiding this situation outside of getting copies of ID's and signing disclaimers before sleeping with somebody. The best I've seen so far is 'he should have known better'............. HOW?!?!

 

Use some logic here, when I say there is blame to go around with all parties involved doesn't equate to statutory rape is acceptable.

Edited August 7, 2015 by JJFIVEOH

[Weave]

No, that's nowhere near what I was saying. If he knowingly had sex with a minor and/or forced himself on her, then hang him. I've mentioned that several times know, by the way.

 

If he was led on, in an adult establishment, by a woman/girl that lied about her age................. how can you possibly find Kane guilty? I've asked over and over now how anybody proposes avoiding this situation outside of getting copies of ID's and signing disclaimers before sleeping with somebody. The best I've seen so far is 'he should have known better'............. HOW?!?!

 

Use some logic here, when I say there is blame to go around with all parties involved doesn't equate to statutory rape is acceptable.

 

 

He's the adult.  It is up to him to find a way.  It's not that difficult to fish out whether someone is of legal age with a just a smidgen of effort, and if it seems fishy you walk.  

 

I'm surprised you wouldn't bang the personal responsibility mallet here.

[JJFIVEOH]

He's the adult.  It is up to him to find a way.  It's not that difficult to fish out whether someone is of legal age with a just a smidgen of effort, and if it seems fishy you walk.  

 

I'm surprised you wouldn't bang the personal responsibility mallet here.

 

It's so easy that nobody here has yet to tell us how. Not sure how old some of the people on here are, but it's not as easy as you think.

 

I would bang that mallet, but it wouldn't go over very well.

[Weave]

It's so easy that nobody here has yet to tell us how. Not sure how old some of the people on here are, but it's not as easy as you think.

 

I would bang that mallet, but it wouldn't go over very well.

 

Do you need a manual?  Seriously?  How do you not get tricked into sleeping with minors?

 

Yep.  We should charge the parents.  No, it's a mistake everyone should learn from.  But HOW?  Noone has said how!  

 

Dig those toes in.

Edited August 7, 2015 by weave

[Taro T]

This is the ONLY crime where half the people immediately jump to creating scenarios where it is the Victim's fault.

 

The Misogyny is palpable.

 

When someone has their car stolen, we don't jump to "they may have left their keys in the car and a note that says 'free ride'"

 

When someone is hit by a drunk driver, we don't jump to "they probably jumped out into traffic"

 

When someone is mugged, we don't jump to "I'll bet they just gave the guy the money, and then wanted it back afterwards."

 

I will thought police the ###### out of misogyny, intentional or not, conscious or subconscious, because I love women and I'm absolutely sick and tired of so many men having such contempt for them.

Which "half of the people" would you be referring to here?

This is the ONLY crime where half the people immediately jump to creating scenarios where it is the Victim's fault.

 

The Misogyny is palpable.

 

When someone has their car stolen, we don't jump to "they may have left their keys in the car and a note that says 'free ride'"

 

When someone is hit by a drunk driver, we don't jump to "they probably jumped out into traffic"

 

When someone is mugged, we don't jump to "I'll bet they just gave the guy the money, and then wanted it back afterwards."

 

I will thought police the ###### out of misogyny, intentional or not, conscious or subconscious, because I love women and I'm absolutely sick and tired of so many men having such contempt for them.

Which "half of the people" would you be referring to here?

[JJFIVEOH]

Do you need a manual?  Seriously?  How do you not get tricked into sleeping with minors?

 

Yep.  We should charge the parents.  No, it's a mistake everyone should learn from.  But HOW?  Noone has said how!  

 

Dig those toes in.

 

I'm sorry you didn't see my first or second or third or fourth explanation about who is at fault and who should be blamed. Apparently you're stuck one statement and one statement only. 

 

If you're unwilling to listen to me, then I'm just wasting my time.

 

You really need to get out more. I'm pretty sure I've spent more time around 17-23 year olds than you have.

Edited August 7, 2015 by JJFIVEOH

[LastPommerFan]

Which "half of the people" would you be referring to here?

 

The half that feels it necessary to bring up scenarios that (a) accept that this event did occur, but it was somehow her fault or (b) insinuate that the accuser is lying because other, completely unrelated accuser, lied.