The trades or more patience?

[jahnyc]

I know that I am in the minority on this, but I wonder how the young players and draft picks would have developed over time instead of using these assets in the trades that were made.  Clearly, some players needed a change, including Stafford and Grigorenko, but I continue to believe that we overpaid in some of our trades, particularly for Lehner.  I understand that O'Reilly and Kane are quality players, but it seems that the trading of a significant portion of our assets has left us with a weak defense with few options in free agency.  Of course we could make more trades to upgrade the defense, but do we really want to use our remaining assets to do so?

 

The rebuild has been painful, and fans of the Sabres should not be happy about the last few years, but I was willing to be patient for a bit longer.  

[Jeanbe]

You only have so many contracts and yes, some of what we traded will become very good players but you can't always wait for the talent to develop if it ever does.  Grigs will be in the KHL in a year in my opinion and Zads is one, when he grows up, will be a good one but that all depends on him.

[NHLBUFF]

Would you trade Thomas Vanek on an expiring contract for Matt Moulson, Robin Lehner and a 2nd rd pick? I don't think there is too many here who would say no! I agree looking at most of our trades I believe we overpaid, or at least seem to have at this point in time, but I also believe the place the team was in this year, was a terrible environment for prospects. Hopefully now we can show them a winning culture, or at the very least not cheering for them to fail.

[NHLBUFF]

Patience is fine but we actually have too many centers now (after having none forever). Now we need to figure out who can move to wing effectively. Those who can't (like Hodgson) will need to be moved at some point for other assets that better fit our needs. Larsson is a bit an issue at the moment. Where do you play him? He was much better at center than wing but he doesn't project into a top 6 role with O'Reilly, Eichel and eventually Reinhart on the team. FWIW I think we'll end up with Eichel and Reinhart in the 1,2 slots with O'Reilly sliding to wing. That would make Larsson a #3 center which on the surface seems like a good role for him given his solid defending and decent offense, but then where does Girgensons go? Girgensons surely needs more than 4th line ice so you'd hope he could transition to 2nd or 3rd line wing, right?

 

Some people are still gnashing their teeth over trading Grigorenko. If we sent him to Rochester he'd be claimed. So to keep him we'd have to play him. Is he a top 6 center on this team right now? I don't think so. Is he next year? I don't think so with O'Reilly, Eichel and Reinhart all on board by then. So if he's not that what do you do with him? We have at least 2 #3 centers better than him right now and he's not a #4 energy line player. We reached a dead end with him and I'm glad they moved on

 

There are still some moves to be made to convert assets into different types of assets that better fit what we need

 

and then trade Matt Moulson and Cody McCormick for Vaclav Karabacek, Josh Gorges, a 2016 7th, Jack Nevins, Cody McCormick, and Matt Moulson.

 

Also, it seems to me the NHL owes us a lottery win here at some point. I'm ok finishing 14th and then winning the lotto.

Yah, I would be curious to see someone break down every traded player and who those picks turned into over the last 3 years so we could see how much we actually improved over our old core. We are definitely due for a bounce but I'd take getting away with a kicked in goal in the SCF over winning the lottery.

Edit:fixed some of the grammar mistakes

Edited July 19, 2015 by NHLBUFF

[jahnyc]

Grigorenko had to go.  He needed a fresh start.  Not sure whether it was him, coaching or the way he was handled, but it was not going to work out in Buffalo.  The defense still seems pretty weak to me.  Trading Zadorov hurts, but maybe there were enough questions about his commitment that necessitated a move.

[French Collection]

I think patience is the key. When Ehrhoff, Franson and other D-men sign there will be teams closer to the cap and some prospects pushed down the depth charts. Some serviceable 5-6 defenseman will become available. I know we are hoping for a 3-4 D-man but we won't get a 3-4 guy without giving up a good forward and more. We can hope for a Boychuk/Leddy scenario.

 

We need do draft a few D-men next year.

Edited July 19, 2015 by French Collection

[inkman]

I think patience is the key. When Ehrhoff, Franson and other D-men sign there will be teams closer to the cap and some prospects pushed down the depth charts. Some serviceable 5-6 defenseman will become available. I know we are hoping for a 3-4 D-man but we won't get a 3-4 guy without giving up a good forward and more. We can hope for a Boychuk/Leddy scenario.

 

We need do draft a few D-men next year.

GMTM doesn't draft on need. Best player available. The roster is addressed with free agents and trades. If the Sabres are the picking in the top 3, that player could be years away anyway.

[deluca67]

I know that I am in the minority on this, but I wonder how the young players and draft picks would have developed over time instead of using these assets in the trades that were made.  Clearly, some players needed a change, including Stafford and Grigorenko, but I continue to believe that we overpaid in some of our trades, particularly for Lehner.  I understand that O'Reilly and Kane are quality players, but it seems that the trading of a significant portion of our assets has left us with a weak defense with few options in free agency.  Of course we could make more trades to upgrade the defense, but do we really want to use our remaining assets to do so?

 

The rebuild has been painful, and fans of the Sabres should not be happy about the last few years, but I was willing to be patient for a bit longer.  

The one thing I try to remember is that the Sabres traded away assets for assets further along. It's not like they dumped a number of picks to pick up some 30 years old's. The Sabres have added NHL proven parts to their core. That is no small feet and is not cheap. They were also able to do so without giving up their prime assets. Girgensons, Risto and the two Top 2 draft picks are still here. They still have a bunch of talented prospects in the pipe line and draft picks available to either move or execute. Sure, the Sabres still have holes and needs, they are just starting to put this thing together, it's not going to happen overnight. As a GM you take a look at opportunities that are out there and you take advantage. Kane and O'Reilly being Sabres is as much about timing as it was about the assets used to acquire them. Maybe next seasons Kane or O'Reilly is a blueliner, or maybe if the Bruins weren't in the Sabres division we would be talking about Dougie Hamilton. The Sabres a re in a solid position right now. And odds are that some young player that we may not be talking much about right now comes out of nowhere to make an impact filling what is now perceived as a need.      

[NHLBUFF]

Keeping in mind that if we rode some of the players we traded all the way to the ground we would have probably won more games and not had Reinhart and Eichel. We'd have other people, just not them specifically. Also, the old core players were generally dealt as rentals. Players like Myers with term left were the exception. Assuming all the pending UFAs would have re-signed here is iffy.

 

Here's a list. Enjoy. The O'Reilly deal isn't included in the list.

http://www.nhltradetracker.com/user/trade_list_by_team/Buffalo_Sabres/1

 

It's a little more complex obviously but you can connect Pominville and Sekera directly to O'Reilly, McGinn, Larsson, and Vaclav Karabacek

 

Vanek became Moulson, Lehner, Brendan Guhle, Eric Cornel, Brycen Martin, and Josh Gorges (via a #2 acquired for Moulson)

 

Gaustad became Girgensons

 

Derek Roy became Ott, Ott and Miller are connected to Kane, Bogosian, Carrier, Kasdorf (via STLs 2015 #1), a 2016 #3 and a 2017 #2 (obtained for Chris Stewart)

 

Regher and McNabb are connected to Deslauriers and Fasching

 

Leopold became Justin Bailey and Anthony Florentino

 

TJ Brennan became Gustav Possler

 

I think we made out pretty well and that Jordan Leopold deal has potential to be grand larceny. Out of the players we dealt from "the core" the only ones who play for the team we traded them to are McNabb (not really core), Pominville, and Gaustad

Thanks, very interesting stuff. I was on board with this since Regier but the wheels in motion. Edited July 19, 2015 by NHLBUFF

[nfreeman]

Keeping in mind that if we rode some of the players we traded all the way to the ground we would have probably won more games and not had Reinhart and Eichel.  We'd have other people, just not them specifically. Also, the old core players were generally dealt as rentals. Players like Myers with term left were the exception. Assuming all the pending UFAs would have re-signed here is iffy.

 

Here's a list.  Enjoy.  The O'Reilly deal isn't included in the list.

http://www.nhltradetracker.com/user/trade_list_by_team/Buffalo_Sabres/1

 

It's a little more complex obviously but you can connect Pominville and Sekera directly to O'Reilly, McGinn, Larsson, and Vaclav Karabacek

 

Vanek became Moulson, Lehner, Brendan Guhle, Eric Cornel, Brycen Martin, and Josh Gorges (via a #2 acquired for Moulson)

 

Gaustad became Girgensons

 

Derek Roy became Ott, Ott and Miller are connected to Kane, Bogosian, Carrier, Kasdorf (via STLs 2015 #1), a 2016 #3 and a 2017 #2 (obtained for Chris Stewart)

 

Regher and McNabb are connected to Deslauriers and Fasching

 

Leopold became Justin Bailey and Anthony Florentino

 

TJ Brennan became Gustav Possler

 

I think we made out pretty well and that Jordan Leopold deal has potential to be grand larceny. Out of the players we dealt from "the core" the only ones who play for the team we traded them to are McNabb (not really core), Pominville, and Gaustad

 

Good breakdown, although I think you need to include Myers and Stafford in the bolded part.

[Doohicksie]

The defense still seems pretty weak to me.  Trading Zadorov hurts, but maybe there were enough questions about his commitment that necessitated a move.

 

I personally wondered what everyone was thinking of when they were anointing him as the other half of the top pair of the future.  I probably even fell in with that crowd for a while. bit as the season wore on, he seemed more and more to be a flash in the pan.  I really think Grigo has a better shot at sticking in the NHL than Zadorov does.  Frankly though I wouldn't be surprised to see both of them wash out.

[Doohicksie]

At this point I'm willing to see what team the Sabres put on the ice this year and next before I judge GMTM's moves.

[3putt]

Zadorov may not be a top two, but he will be a top four for along time. He needs coaching and I suspect a tighter leash, but he will have an NHL career. I think Grigs is a going to need to find a better situation. The Avs have too many talented forwards. I am in the camp that a rebuild wasn't going to happen overnight and we as fans would need to be patient as a new core found its,legs. Every other team improved through the offseason as well and I don't see ROR as the overhaul many do. We will be young and make young mistakes. I would like to see us get better while still filling our pipeline and creating the optimum development program in Rochester. We offered serious dough to some FAs who turned us down some are not yet the destination we want to be.

[JohnRobertEichel]

17 assets were collectively exchanged during Tim Murray's big 3 trades, but ultimate judgment of these trades will really depend on these 6:

 

Zadorov + Grigorenko + Armia for Lehner + Kane + O'Reilly.

 

So by assuming Zadorov develops into anything less than a top-2 D-man, then this would start to look like a major win for Tim Murray.

 

I suspect that the Sabres are already planning to use their 2016 1st rounder on a lefty defenseman to replace the hole that losing Zadorov created. He was drafted 16th overall in 2013, so it shouldn't be too difficult to find his replacement in talent next June. The Sabres have multiple 3rd rounders in 2016 and an extra 2nd rounder in 2017 to play around with so to make things happen. Other than a top-2 lefty D-man, I don't see any other major talent holes in the organization. I think our top 6 forwards are already here: Eichel and O'Reilly at center, with Kane and Reinhart and Ennis and Girgensons at the wings.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Rebecca Buck

[Brawndo]

I think the LHD the Sabres are looking for will be added right around the first week of October. GMTM will probably trade for one off a cap strapped team or worse case scenario the Sabres have priority waiver claim, and maybe can grab a player from there

[Hoss]

I think the LHD the Sabres are looking for will be added right around the first week of October. GMTM will probably trade for one off a cap strapped team or worse case scenario the Sabres have priority waiver claim, and maybe can grab a player from there

If we're looking for teams that are in the position Chicago (Leddy) and Boston (Boychuk) were then the most likely candidates are Detroit, Vancouver, St. Louis, San Jose, Philly and Tampa. Those are the teams with the least cap space excluding Chicago who only have four current NHL dman which means they're not a match.

 

The candidates from that crop are Kindl/Quincey/Smith/Ericsson (DET), Garrison/Carle (TB), Vlasic/Dillon (SJ), Gunnarsson (STL), Edler/Sbisa (VAN), Schultz (PHI).

 

I'm not saying all or any of those guys are available, but they're all left handed dmen on that team that might not cost a fortune (aside from Edler, Vlasic and Garrison) and are somewhat desirable. Detroit, Vancouver, Tampa Bay and San Jose all have an overload on the left side.

[Mustache of God]

Zadorov may not be a top two, but he will be a top four for along time. He needs coaching and I suspect a tighter leash, but he will have an NHL career. I think Grigs is a going to need to find a better situation. The Avs have too many talented forwards. I am in the camp that a rebuild wasn't going to happen overnight and we as fans would need to be patient as a new core found its,legs. Every other team improved through the offseason as well and I don't see ROR as the overhaul many do. We will be young and make young mistakes. I would like to see us get better while still filling our pipeline and creating the optimum development program in Rochester. We offered serious dough to some FAs who turned us down some are not yet the destination we want to be.

 

Something interesting I heard in regards to Zadorov today in between beer league games:

 

One of my teammates happens to be from Buffalo and he mentioned that during the draft one of his buddies was watching with Cody McCormick who was relieved when he heard that Zad was part of the ROR trade on accounts that the team wouldn't have to "babysit" him any longer and that his maturity issues go well beyond just being late occasionally. Of course I have no way to substantiate any of this and I still think once he grows up he'll be a great player but I figured I'd throw it out there anyways. 

[beerme1]

If we're looking for teams that are in the position Chicago (Leddy) and Boston (Boychuk) were then the most likely candidates are Detroit, Vancouver, St. Louis, San Jose, Philly and Tampa. Those are the teams with the least cap space excluding Chicago who only have four current NHL dman which means they're not a match.

 

The candidates from that crop are Kindl/Quincey/Smith/Ericsson (DET), Garrison/Carle (TB), Vlasic/Dillon (SJ), Gunnarsson (STL), Edler/Sbisa (VAN), Schultz (PHI).

 

I'm not saying all or any of those guys are available, but they're all left handed dmen on that team that might not cost a fortune (aside from Edler, Vlasic and Garrison) and are somewhat desirable. Detroit, Vancouver, Tampa Bay and San Jose all have an overload on the left side.

 

 

Excellent info. Thanks for posting that.

[Huckleberry]

If we're looking for teams that are in the position Chicago (Leddy) and Boston (Boychuk) were then the most likely candidates are Detroit, Vancouver, St. Louis, San Jose, Philly and Tampa. Those are the teams with the least cap space excluding Chicago who only have four current NHL dman which means they're not a match.

 

The candidates from that crop are Kindl/Quincey/Smith/Ericsson (DET), Garrison/Carle (TB), Vlasic/Dillon (SJ), Gunnarsson (STL), Edler/Sbisa (VAN), Schultz (PHI).

 

I'm not saying all or any of those guys are available, but they're all left handed dmen on that team that might not cost a fortune (aside from Edler, Vlasic and Garrison) and are somewhat desirable. Detroit, Vancouver, Tampa Bay and San Jose all have an overload on the left side.

 

Vlasic won't be moved by SJ, the detroit guys don't really interest me.   I guess Garrison is the one we should go for but most likely will end up with Carle.    Behind that i'd go for Gunnarsson.

Can't see Vancouver deplete their D even more.

 

Edit: Schultz over Gunnarsson ( to much leafs stench on him still), The sharks defenders i don't know, maybe try and take mueller but they were really bad at defending last year.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Heimdall

[ddaryl]

I know that I am in the minority on this, but I wonder how the young players and draft picks would have developed over time instead of using these assets in the trades that were made.  Clearly, some players needed a change, including Stafford and Grigorenko, but I continue to believe that we overpaid in some of our trades, particularly for Lehner.  I understand that O'Reilly and Kane are quality players, but it seems that the trading of a significant portion of our assets has left us with a weak defense with few options in free agency.  Of course we could make more trades to upgrade the defense, but do we really want to use our remaining assets to do so?

 

The rebuild has been painful, and fans of the Sabres should not be happy about the last few years, but I was willing to be patient for a bit longer.  

 

You want quality assets you need to give quality assets.

 

Buffalo does not have the patience to wait 5 more years for all that young talent to possibly develop. If the Sabres were to take that route the majority of fans would of revolted.

 

At this point we are dwindling on assets, but if the goal is to start winning now then there is little reason to wait.

Edited July 20, 2015 by ddaryl

[sabills]

Yah, I would be curious to see someone break down every traded player and who those picks turned into over the last 3 years so we could see how much we actually improved over our old core. We are definitely due for a bounce but I'd take getting away with a kicked in goal in the SCF over winning the lottery.

Edit:fixed some of the grammar mistakes

Relevant to these interests: The Rick Martin Trade Tree, still going strong

 

 

Link to a larger, readable version: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CIrTlhdVAAAzPAr.jpg:large

Edited July 20, 2015 by sabills

[Drunkard]

Something interesting I heard in regards to Zadorov today in between beer league games:

 

One of my teammates happens to be from Buffalo and he mentioned that during the draft one of his buddies was watching with Cody McCormick who was relieved when he heard that Zad was part of the ROR trade on accounts that the team wouldn't have to "babysit" him any longer and that his maturity issues go well beyond just being late occasionally. Of course I have no way to substantiate any of this and I still think once he grows up he'll be a great player but I figured I'd throw it out there anyways.

I guess Cody McCormick will have more free time to babysit O'Reilly and his car keys now.

[Weave]

Relevant to these interests: The Rick Martin Trade Tree, still going strong

 

 

Link to a larger, readable version: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CIrTlhdVAAAzPAr.jpg:large

 

 

This belongs in the awesome thread.